Honor-killings and whistle-blowing

Everytime I tried to write something here....sigh

It is just so sick. SICK... SICK.... SICK.

Where are our cultural relativists on that one? You know the people who advocate respecting the customs of all societies, for who are we to judge? In some parts of the world, if the evil colonialists had not lowered the hammer, suttee would be practiced more widely, the Sundance Ritual and Ubangi disfiguration would have continued, and feet would still be bound, and female circumcision ... well you catch my drift.

she knew the custom. she shouldn't have broken the rules.
and that brit shouldn't have made sexy eyes with her. he should go public and tell other brit and western boys to leave those girls alone.

we must respect cultural differences because we want ours to be respected. that doesn't mean we have to like them. we westerners should make it easier for people to immigrate and get shelter/protection for political and cultural reasons.

Honor killings are horrendous and the propagators should be wiped from the face of the earth. Aside from that on 'barbaric' customs...

The Sundance is voluntary and consented to by adults--usually done by a handful of males of the Plains Indian tribes. http://www.lakotawritings.com/The_Sun_Dance_Ritual.htm

It is not mutilating females as children to deprive them of sexual feelings to save their honor or burning them alive as adults so they don't 'dishonor' their dead husbands. Nor is it tossing acid in young women's faces for failure to marry or rape of a girl child to get rid of SID.

As far as primitive disfiguration of ears, lips, noses, and rings about the neck, the 'civilized' world wastes billions of dollars in advertising of and buying liposuctions, breast augmentation, hair transplants, penile implants, youth restoratives, etc.

NikeeGoddess said:

she knew the custom. she shouldn't have broken the rules.
and that brit shouldn't have made sexy eyes with her. he should go public and tell other brit and western boys to leave those girls alone.

we must respect cultural differences because we want ours to be respected. that doesn't mean we have to like them. we westerners should make it easier for people to immigrate and get shelter/protection for political and cultural reasons.

Click to expand...

I can't believe I'm reading this.

NikeeGoddess said:

she knew the custom. she shouldn't have broken the rules.
and that brit shouldn't have made sexy eyes with her. he should go public and tell other brit and western boys to leave those girls alone.

we must respect cultural differences because we want ours to be respected. that doesn't mean we have to like them. we westerners should make it easier for people to immigrate and get shelter/protection for political and cultural reasons.

Click to expand...

Are you seriously suggesting that we in the West should respect a custom that allows a father to "suffocate, stamp on, then stab [his] young daughter" over an innocent friendship with a British student? And then shooting his wife for telling about it? Acts which he has openly admitted but received no punishment? Unbelievable!

NikeeGoddess said:

she knew the custom. she shouldn't have broken the rules.
and that brit shouldn't have made sexy eyes with her. he should go public and tell other brit and western boys to leave those girls alone.

we must respect cultural differences because we want ours to be respected. that doesn't mean we have to like them. we westerners should make it easier for people to immigrate and get shelter/protection for political and cultural reasons.

Click to expand...

I'm horrified though no longer surprised at these so-called "honour" killings (more like "sadistic ego" killings to me), but equally horrified that any westerner can condone such brutality. Mister NikeeGoddess (no woman or mother could have written that post), no one has mentioned whether the soldier made 'sexy eyes' at the girl, only that they made friends. And absolutely NOTHING justifies a father killing his daughter and then his wife for telling others.

When it comes to a toss-up between a culture's right to assert the sanctity of life versus the other culture's right to sanction certain types of killing I would hope for sanctity to prevail. Since the concept of "honor killings" is a by-product of the need to protect/defend a possession (the daughter/wife) I have particular distain for it because I don't think women should be viewed that way. I think the "Do Not Kill" rule is a really good one, although I realize that there must be exceptions. When I read stuff like this I feel very sorry for people who are viewed or view others as something that can be owned, bought or discarded.

respect and condoning it are too different animals in my book. that's why i said we should offer shelter and protection to anyone who runs away from an abusive culture.

i say respect b/c i turn it around. ie - what if they insisted we punish all our white girls for smiling at black boys, talking to them and being friendly? we'd think that was crazy and absurd... although, i'm sure in some families here this does happen. it wasn't too long ago but remember emmit till? probably not but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

Someone remind me why we've got our soldiers dying to defend these barbarians again?

The sooner equal rights hits everyone, the better off this world will be.

Sara - who thinks women should be treated like people in every culture.

Also, for the record before anyone asks, honor killings are NOT a part of Islam directly but instead are usually a tribal-law matter. (although sometimes that law is enforced on a national level like in KSA.)

NikeeGoddess said:

respect and condoning it are too different animals in my book. that's why i said we should offer shelter and protection to anyone who runs away from an abusive culture.

i say respect b/c i turn it around. ie - what if they insisted we punish all our white girls for smiling at black boys, talking to them and being friendly? we'd think that was crazy and absurd... although, i'm sure in some families here this does happen. it wasn't too long ago but remember emmit till? probably not but: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emmett_Till

Click to expand...

Interesting example. By your reasoning, the North should have respected the South's custom of keeping slaves and just granted asylum to any escaped slaves. After all, we must respect other customs.

I also find it interesting note your reactions to the customs of a small group in Texas who practice polygamy.
http://absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2396372#post2396372

murder is murder no matter how you paint it.

NikeeGoddess said:

she knew the custom. she shouldn't have broken the rules.
and that brit shouldn't have made sexy eyes with her. he should go public and tell other brit and western boys to leave those girls alone.

we must respect cultural differences because we want ours to be respected. that doesn't mean we have to like them. we westerners should make it easier for people to immigrate and get shelter/protection for political and cultural reasons.

Click to expand...

You're suggesting that the west should offer sanctuary to every woman who wishes to leave a patriarchal society. Are you serious?

You know, this isnt the first time I've wondered why there isn't like an underground railroad for escaping islamic women. We can't change their society, so why not help the women? Its not like a country can have too many women. Too many men, sure, but women? no. I don't see what negative effects this could have, besides resentment on the part of those that remain, but at this point, they hate us anyway, so who cares? Lets stand up and do something thats right. If someone is going to hate me, I'd like to deserve it.

By your reasoning, the North should have respected the South's custom of keeping slaves and just granted asylum to any escaped slaves.

Click to expand...

that's your reasoning. i guess i should have clarified my thinking.
- people in the US are guilty of honor killings but back then they called it lynching. it was just a "pointing" fingers thingy.
- i do believe the north did grant asylum to escaped slaves from the south. what's your point? back then slavery was respected by many. that's how it went on for so long.

so we had a civil/clash of the cultures war and the north won. i believe we should let the people of Basra have their own civil war and stay out of it. offering political and cultural asylum is staying out of it imo.

I also find it interesting note your reactions to the customs of a small group in Texas who practice polygamy.

Click to expand...

not sure what you see. but i do know there are a few people who offer shelter and a place to live for escapees... like the "lost boys" from the polygamists' compounds.

You're suggesting that the west should offer sanctuary to every woman who wishes to leave a patriarchal society. Are you serious?

Click to expand...

yes. just think about it. if the women started leaving in droves then the leaders and men of the country would realize that they would have to do something drastic to get the women to want to stay. they would wonder what the west has to offer that would drive the women to us and hopefully realize they would have to give it to women wanting and needing more freedom. it would only take one generation to work.

Yes, because if the women wanted to leave, they would be allowed to do so...in droves.

if the women started leaving in droves then the leaders and men of the country would realize that they would have to do something drastic to get the women to want to stay.

Click to expand...

No, they would do something drastic to MAKE them stay. Permanently. And then we'd be right back where we are now, watching distantly as people die.

Oh, and the men doing the killing would still blame us, for promoting freedom to their women, and enticing them to flee (by our mere existence).

You beat me to it, Rob. I'm sure they would... it would never occur to the men to kill the women as they packed, or walked down the street, or ran for the border, or stole the car or the donkey... I'm sure they wouldn't make agreements with each other to kill each other's wives if they did manage to make it to the crossing... I'm also sure it would be the first thing on all the women's minds, too. "Gosh, I don't like the idea I might be killed for causing dishonor to my husband's tribe. I think I'll give up everything I've ever known, as well as my children and my home, and take off into the desert! That's easier than staying here and being obediently submissive like I and my mother and my grandmothers and my great grandmothers have been for thousands of years. Hell, yeah!"

NikeeGoddess said:

we must respect cultural differences because we want ours to be respected.

Click to expand...

No we must not. Quite the opposite. This is the worst form of human slavery: subjugating and destroying at will your own family. It is a barbaric practice that I will never "respect." I seriously cannot believe anyone would apply cultural relativism to this sinister practice and just shrug and say, "Well, they do it over there, so it must be okay." And don't be fooled by the "I don't condone it, I just respect it" line. There is no difference. By accepting that it is okay for them to do ("respect") you are saying we should not work to stop it ("condone").

I beg you, NG, rethink this position.

OFG said:

You beat me to it, Rob. I'm sure they would... it would never occur to the men to kill the women as they packed, or walked down the street, or ran for the border, or stole the car or the donkey... I'm sure they wouldn't make agreements with each other to kill each other's wives if they did manage to make it to the crossing... I'm also sure it would be the first thing on all the women's minds, too. "Gosh, I don't like the idea I might be killed for causing dishonor to my husband's tribe. I think I'll give up everything I've ever known, as well as my children and my home, and take off into the desert! That's easier than staying here and being obediently submissive like I and my mother and my grandmothers and my great grandmothers have been for thousands of years. Hell, yeah!"

Click to expand...

You know, I don't believe that upbringing and environment are the quintessential factors in determining one's outlook and mindset. I think people see through these things--they know when something is just wrong.

But that knowledge--alone--is insufficient to propel those within such a destructive system to attempt breaking free. Acceptance is more likely, along with a public admission that it is "okay."

As you say, the potential costs of disobedience are easily imagined and obviously far greater than most would be willing to pay.

The notion that change can always be had from the ground up, as it were, is inconsistent with historical reality. The Civil War--mentioned above--is prime evidence of this.

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing." (Edmund Burke)

May I suggest a couple of books for anyone who would like an insider's viewpoint of these customs?

Do They Hear You When You Cry by Fauziya Kassindja is the story of a young girl who was going to be forced to undergo genital mutilation by her father's family, against her parents' wishes, and into marriage with a much older man. She escaped to Germany and then to the US. She was imprisoned by US immigration authorities who felt she was just running away because "her family wanted her to marry a man she didn't like."

Also Guests of the Sheik: An Ethnography of an Iraqi Village by Elizabeth Warnock Fernea. It's the story of a newly married western woman who, in the 1950s, lives "behind the veil" for two years in southern Iraq while her husband conducts an anthropological study. She gives an inside look of an Iraqi woman's life.