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Shadow_Ferret
05-23-2008, 09:44 PM
and loses me as a customer.

McDonald's (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121151133018416567.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) was the last of the holdouts, the last of the great tasting fries in the fast food industry. Everyone else has switched to a non-transfat oil long ago and in switching lost their flavor.

Burger King did it several years ago and their fries are now godawful tasting things.

Now McDonald's has made the switch and I'm sad to say, they aren't the wondrous and delightful ambrosia of the Gods that they once were.

I guess my diet starts now.

All I need is my Mr. G's Old-Fashioned Potato Chips to go trans-fat free and I'll not have anything to snack on.

CaroGirl
05-23-2008, 09:49 PM
Yay. Go Ferret go. Come on over to the dark side of healthier eating.

NeuroFizz
05-23-2008, 09:50 PM
Ed. Here. <offers a freshly opened bag of pork rinds>
I have a six-pack of Pacifico. Lets polish off the lot.

Staroffurby
05-23-2008, 09:50 PM
Its about time they did this, then again i never eat there because i enjoy my food and i can cook :)

Seaclusion
05-23-2008, 09:50 PM
Clogged hearts and arteries everywhere are lamenting.

Richard

James81
05-23-2008, 09:52 PM
This is an outrage. An OUTRAGE.

Shadow_Ferret
05-23-2008, 10:01 PM
Yay. Go Ferret go. Come on over to the dark side of healthier eating.
Nope, sorry, you have to drag me kicking and screaming.

Taste matters, not how healthy something is.

McDonald's fries have lost their taste.

It's the end of an era and will be mourned by anyone who still enjoys good tasting food over cardboard.

JoeEkaitis
05-23-2008, 10:13 PM
Beef fat has no trans fats, so they should go back to the original frying mix of liquid vegetable oil and beef fat, and just label the fries:


NON-VEGETARIAN AND NON-VEGAN

SO THERE! GO EAT SOMEWHERE ELSE!

NO SKIN OFF OUR BUNS!

Bartholomew
05-23-2008, 10:15 PM
and loses me as a customer.

McDonald's (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121151133018416567.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) was the last of the holdouts, the last of the great tasting fries in the fast food industry. Everyone else has switched to a non-transfat oil long ago and in switching lost their flavor.

Burger King did it several years ago and their fries are now godawful tasting things.

Now McDonald's has made the switch and I'm sad to say, they aren't the wondrous and delightful ambrosia of the Gods that they once were.

I guess my diet starts now.

All I need is my Mr. G's Old-Fashioned Potato Chips to go trans-fat free and I'll not have anything to snack on.

Outstanding french fries take about 10 minutes to make, including prep. Get yourself a fryer and some veggie oil, slice up the potatoes--viola--yum in fried form.

JoeEkaitis
05-23-2008, 10:18 PM
There are always alternatives.


http://heartattackgrill.com/pic/logo-1.jpg
http://heartattackgrill.com/pic/menu/menu.jpg


Road trip, anyone?

maestrowork
05-23-2008, 10:20 PM
Ed. Here. <offers a freshly opened bag of pork rinds>
I have a six-pack of Pacifico. Lets polish off the lot.

I love an occasional bag of pork rinds.

Otherwise, I have no use of trans fat. ;)


McDonald's fries have lost their taste.

Did you taste them yet? Maybe they will surprise you? The last I had them (like two days ago) they were still very tasty.

Ray, who has nice abs

Shadow_Ferret
05-23-2008, 10:23 PM
Those flatliner fries look damned good. Fried in lard. Mmmm. Lard.

I wonder if they ship to Wisconsin.

JoeEkaitis
05-23-2008, 10:23 PM
Read your pork rinds bags, everyone. Never had trans-fats, never will.

http://www.fritolay.com/images/cm/bakenets_friedporkskins.gif

Seaclusion
05-23-2008, 10:26 PM
Read your pork rinds bags, everyone. Never had trans-fats, never will.

http://www.fritolay.com/images/cm/bakenets_friedporkskins.gif


Health food, Right.

Richard

Yeshanu
05-23-2008, 10:26 PM
The only fries worth eating. (http://www.newyorkfries.com/)

Unfortunately for most of you, you can't get them in the States. :D

Shadow_Ferret
05-23-2008, 10:29 PM
The only fries worth eating. (http://www.newyorkfries.com/)

Unfortunately for most of you, you can't get them in the States. :D
Sunflower oil? That isn't right.

Bartholomew
05-23-2008, 10:29 PM
The only fries worth eating. (http://www.newyorkfries.com/)

Unfortunately for most of you, you can't get them in the States. :D

Ironic.

Shadow_Ferret
05-23-2008, 10:32 PM
Ironic.
Not really, REAL New Yorkers wouldn't eat something fried in a flower. :D

benbradley
05-23-2008, 10:35 PM
and loses me as a customer.

McDonald's (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121151133018416567.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) was the last of the holdouts, the last of the great tasting fries in the fast food industry. Everyone else has switched to a non-transfat oil long ago and in switching lost their flavor.

Burger King did it several years ago and their fries are now godawful tasting things.

Now McDonald's has made the switch and I'm sad to say, they aren't the wondrous and delightful ambrosia of the Gods that they once were.

I guess my diet starts now.

All I need is my Mr. G's Old-Fashioned Potato Chips to go trans-fat free and I'll not have anything to snack on.
When was it, about 1991 when Winston came out with those "no chemicals" "natural" tobacco-only cigarettes? I forget what they were called, but I quit smoking in 1992.

Yeshanu
05-23-2008, 10:39 PM
Sunflower oil? That isn't right.

Actually, it's really good. Tasting, that is. I've switched my home deep-frying to sunflower oil because it does taste better.

As far as ironic goes, I've always thought so too. The original store was in New York, but two Canadian sharpies bought it, moved it to Canada, and turned it into one of the fastest growing chains in the country, right behind Tim's, I think. I know that in the malls around where I work, NYF is only out-performed by A&W, Tim Horton's, and sometimes KFC. A lot of people will buy their burgers at A&W, then come next door and get fries and a drink from NYF.

As for McDonald's, I'm with whoever said they should go back to beef fat. Their fries were much better then.

Shadow_Ferret
05-23-2008, 10:39 PM
When was it, about 1991 when Winston came out with those "no chemicals" "natural" tobacco-only cigarettes? I forget what they were called, but I quit smoking in 1992.
I've been warning people this day would come since the '80s when they first started attacking cigarettes. I said, be careful, these neo-Puritans won't be satisfied until they've wiped out all our vices and we're all eating leaves and twigs.

That day has arrived.

By the way, those "no chemicals" "natural" tabacco-only cigarettes are called "cigars" and I'm going to have one tonight. I need to replace the toxins in my body that I couldn't acquire from the fries today.

You need toxins in your body to keep your auto-immune system active otherwise it'll just get flacid like an unused muscle and then when you really need it, it won't be there for you.

maestrowork
05-23-2008, 10:49 PM
Health food, Right.

Richard

Mmmm... if not for the sodium, they're great (7g protein per serving!), much like beef jerky. It's the sodium that's the problem.

Shadow_Ferret
05-23-2008, 10:51 PM
Mmmm... if not for the sodium, they're great (7g protein per serving!), much like beef jerky. It's the sodium that's the problem.
Yeah, that's why I had to cut down from eating them three times a day. Too much sodium.

Haggis
05-23-2008, 10:58 PM
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Damnhaggis/lard.jpg

Shadow_Ferret
05-23-2008, 11:00 PM
Everyone was happier when they ate lard.

Now everyone is uptight and worried about everything.

Seaclusion
05-23-2008, 11:03 PM
http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o15/Damnhaggis/lard.jpg

They may have been happier, but women have gotten taller since they stopped eating lard.

Richard

CaroGirl
05-23-2008, 11:04 PM
Now everyone is uptight and worried about everything.

YOUR the one who's worried, hon. I eat, and enjoy, healthy food.

Those assholes who manufacture salt and chemical-laden crap can rot in hell. Have a nice day! :)

Seaclusion
05-23-2008, 11:11 PM
Those assholes who manufacture salt and chemical-laden crap can rot in hell.

Don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

Richard

KTC
05-23-2008, 11:12 PM
and loses me as a customer.

McDonald's (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121151133018416567.html?mod=googlenews_wsj) was the last of the holdouts, the last of the great tasting fries in the fast food industry. Everyone else has switched to a non-transfat oil long ago and in switching lost their flavor.

Burger King did it several years ago and their fries are now godawful tasting things.

Now McDonald's has made the switch and I'm sad to say, they aren't the wondrous and delightful ambrosia of the Gods that they once were.

I guess my diet starts now.

All I need is my Mr. G's Old-Fashioned Potato Chips to go trans-fat free and I'll not have anything to snack on.

I take issue. I actually stopped Ronald on the street the other day and burst into song. "Don't go changing, to try to please me... I love you just the way you are..." You know what Mr. McDonald done did? Bastid gave me the finger, passed me a new fangled fry and said, "Is this not changin' enough for ya?!"

I am not impressed. Some of us need trans fat. Some of us are wasting away to nothing... just looking for fatty fries to keep us on this side of the Living/Dead border, God Dammit! Go to hell, Ronald!

Gravity
05-23-2008, 11:26 PM
Pork rinds, Slim Jims, and cheap Mexican beer. That's darn fine eatin'...

Bubastes
05-23-2008, 11:31 PM
I stopped eating McDonald's fries back in the 1990's when they stopped cooking them in beef tallow. Anyone remember how good those were?

WildScribe
05-23-2008, 11:33 PM
Nope, sorry, you have to drag me kicking and screaming.

Taste matters, not how healthy something is.

McDonald's fries have lost their taste.

It's the end of an era and will be mourned by anyone who still enjoys good tasting food over cardboard.

I'm sorry, I thought I read "not cardboard tasting" and "McDonald's" in the same sentence. I'll go back to my home cooking now, thanks.

aruna
05-23-2008, 11:43 PM
Everyone was happier when they ate lard.

Now everyone is uptight and worried about everything.

Too true. A lot of fats that were perfectly healthy and tasted good have been unjustly demonized: Lard, butter, coconut oil and so on. And the myth continues that they are unhealthy, which is just not true.

I wouldn't eat anything cooked in lard as I'm vegetarian but I don't doubt that they are healthier than anything cooked in modern fats, such as canola, corn and sunflower oil, which are highly processed and just as bad as trans fats. Tell that to MacDonalds.

I have a very simple rule of thumb when it comes to food: if it's produced by nature, and been used traditionally before mass production of food began, it's probably healthy.

Shadow_Ferret
05-24-2008, 12:28 AM
YOUR the one who's worried, hon. I eat, and enjoy, healthy food.

Those assholes who manufacture salt and chemical-laden crap can rot in hell. Have a nice day! :)
Isn't is about choice though? Shouldn't I, if I want to indulge in flavor, have the right to buy salt and chemical-laden crap whereas if you want to eat healthy than you can eat steamed cardboard?

:tongue

(I put the tongue in there since you seem to be getting a little angry)


I have a very simple rule of thumb when it comes to food: if it's produced by nature, and been used traditionally before mass production of food began, it's probably healthy.

*hugs Aruna*

Gravity
05-24-2008, 12:54 AM
I have a very simple rule of thumb when it comes to food: if it's produced by nature, and been used traditionally before mass production of food began, it's probably healthy.

You've just described cheeseburgers. Bless you.

johnnysannie
05-24-2008, 01:03 AM
Outstanding french fries take about 10 minutes to make, including prep. Get yourself a fryer and some veggie oil, slice up the potatoes--viola--yum in fried form.

Just what I was going to reccommend.

Fry 'em yourself. Forget veg oil - go for some full fat lard or beef tallow to get that exquiste taste.

DWSTXS
05-24-2008, 01:09 AM
Too true. A lot of fats that were perfectly healthy and tasted good have been unjustly demonized: Lard, butter, coconut oil and so on. And the myth continues that they are unhealthy, which is just not true.

I wouldn't eat anything cooked in lard as I'm vegetarian but I don't doubt that they are healthier than anything cooked in modern fats, such as canola, corn and sunflower oil, which are highly processed and just as bad as trans fats. Tell that to MacDonalds.

I have a very simple rule of thumb when it comes to food: if it's produced by nature, and been used traditionally before mass production of food began, it's probably healthy.


Vegetarian? seriously? wow!

I tried veggies once. My body rejected them.


I am a meatitarian. I am conserving veggies for those who would actually eat them, and keeping the veggies out of the waste stream, helping the environment, and keeping produce costs down.

Also, for every animal you DON'T eat, I'm going to eat 3.
:tongue
LOL

CaroGirl
05-24-2008, 01:26 AM
Isn't is about choice though? Shouldn't I, if I want to indulge in flavor, have the right to buy salt and chemical-laden crap whereas if you want to eat healthy than you can eat steamed cardboard?

:tongue

(I put the tongue in there since you seem to be getting a little angry)



*hugs Aruna*
Not angry, no. And I don't believe it's about choice. You Americans and your "I have an inalienable right to die young." I believe it's about responsibility on the part of the restaurants that produce the food (or rather, the factories, labs, and institutions that manufacture the food) that they sell. If it takes lobbyists to change public opinion and make the restaurant industry responsible, so be it.

And I agree with aruna 100% (alas, I'll never get a Ferret hug for it, however).

Gravity
05-24-2008, 01:34 AM
The free market can be a bitch.

tjwriter
05-24-2008, 01:49 AM
Beef fat has no trans fats, so they should go back to the original frying mix of liquid vegetable oil and beef fat, and just label the fries:



I stopped eating McDonald's fries back in the 1990's when they stopped cooking them in beef tallow. Anyone remember how good those were?


Those were the best fries ever. They never tasted the same after the switch. Hot, salty and delicious.

maestrowork
05-24-2008, 04:52 AM
Isn't is about choice though? Shouldn't I, if I want to indulge in flavor, have the right to buy salt and chemical-laden crap whereas if you want to eat healthy than you can eat steamed cardboard?

"Flavors" is a matter of habit and what you're used to... I think you have a strong feeling that only things with trans fat and loads of salt can be flavorful. That's really not true. You're just used to that kind of cooking. Healthy food can be extremely flavorful, and I have a few recipes I can lend you. My dad prepares awesome, flavorful dishes and they're not saturated with fat and salt either. It depends on the ingredients and how you cook them.

Healthy doesn't mean "steamed cardboard." Get that out of your head. If you really believe that only bad food can be flavorful, then I'm afraid you may eat yourself to a flavorful early death.

aruna
05-24-2008, 10:17 AM
Also, for every animal you DON'T eat, I'm going to eat 3.
:tongue
LOL

You're quite welcome to do so; I don't mind. My body rejects meat, it's not some kid of philosophy with me!

Mac H.
05-24-2008, 10:38 AM
Have you ever wondered why those chain burger restaurants were using those nasty transfats in the first place?



The story dates to the mid-1980s, when CSPI launched an all-out assault on fast food restaurants that used beef fat and palm oil to cook their French fries. Jacobson led protests in front of restaurants and organized a massive postcard campaign aimed at their corporate headquarters. By the early ‘90s, most chains had replaced CSPI’s hated beef fat and tropical oils with the only viable alternative: partially hydrogenated oil, which contained trans fats. Jacobson claimed victory.
Along the path to this "success," CSPI busied itself exonerating hydrogenated oils from a number of studies linking them to increased levels of blood cholesterol. In 1988 CSPI wrote in its Nutrition Action Healthletter: "All told, the charges against trans fat just don’t stand up. And by extension, hydrogenated oils seem relatively innocent." And in a second article a year later, CSPI’s Leibman wrote, "The Bottom Line ... Trans, shmans." Ref: http://www.activistcash.com/organization_overview.cfm/oid/13

Hmmm ... I wonder what smear campaign the 'junk science' organisation CSPI is running now ?

Mac
(PS: Yes, I realised I referenced a very biased source.

I verified it by checking the actual CSPI article here:
http://www.thefreelibrary.com/The+truth+about+trans:+hydrogenated+oils+aren't+gu ilty+as+charged-a06482599 )

Dario D.
05-24-2008, 01:20 PM
Oh, man. Well, any company that has the working ethic to consciously feed other human beings what they feed you at McDonald's is already off my chart, so I won't be missing those fries.

What I miss is a world (that only exists in my dreams) where people actually understand that A) when your body gets hungry, it's not asking for fast food, because there's very little it can do with it (aside from set you back... oh, and pile on the flab), B) eating fast-food is not only like skipping a meal (are you listening, people with growing kids?) but it's like drinking a small vial of mild poison (think rotten milk, minus the nutrients and gag-reflex) which your body has to struggle to get rid of, and C) it barely costs more to get a (healthy) lunch at a restaurant (like Applebee's, etc) than to get a McDonald's #4 Meal with fries and a drink... and hey, by eating at Applebee's, at least you aren't skipping a meal, so money spent on *food* is actually fulfilling its purpose! (unless that was just to fill your stomach, in a "here's some food, now shut up" kind of sense)

Now, I don't mean to pet anyone backwards, but at the same time... well... I have no intention of changing the direction of my stroke to something less true, for someone who has his fur on backwards. :) ...give or take any trivial facts I may have gotten wrong.

Bartholomew
05-24-2008, 01:26 PM
Oh, man. Well, any company that has the working ethic to consciously feed other human beings what they feed you at McDonald's is already off my chart, so I won't be missing those fries.

What I miss is a world (that only exists in my dreams) where people actually understand that A) when your body gets hungry, it's not asking for fast food, because there's very little it can do with it (aside from set you back... oh, and pile on the flab), B) eating fast-food is not only like skipping a meal (are you listening, people with growing kids?) but it's like drinking a small vial of mild poison (think rotten milk, minus the nutrients and gag-reflex) which your body has to struggle to get rid of, and C) it barely costs more to get a (healthy) lunch at a restaurant (like Applebee's, etc) than to get a McDonald's #4 Meal with fries and a drink... and hey, by eating at Applebee's, at least you aren't skipping a meal, so money spent on *food* is actually fulfilling its purpose! (unless that was just to fill your stomach, in a "here's some food, now shut up" kind of sense)

Now, I don't mean to pet anyone backwards, but at the same time... well... I have no intention of changing the direction of my stroke to something less true, for someone who has his fur on backwards. :) ...give or take any trivial facts I may have gotten wrong.

I dropped, like, 50 pounds alone when I stopped eating at fast food joints and drinking soda. But I felt freak'n HUNGRY all the time. (I replaced crap food with real food, and wanted to eat all the time as a result. Go figure?)

If anyone reading this is having the same problem, those Slim Fast drinks actually do make your stomach shut up. It's nice, even though they do cost like, $1,50 a pop.

Bartholomew
05-24-2008, 01:29 PM
Too true. A lot of fats that were perfectly healthy and tasted good have been unjustly demonized: Lard, butter, coconut oil and so on. And the myth continues that they are unhealthy, which is just not true.

I wouldn't eat anything cooked in lard as I'm vegetarian but I don't doubt that they are healthier than anything cooked in modern fats, such as canola, corn and sunflower oil, which are highly processed and just as bad as trans fats. Tell that to MacDonalds.

I have a very simple rule of thumb when it comes to food: if it's produced by nature, and been used traditionally before mass production of food began, it's probably healthy.

We buy our meat directly from the slaughter house. We get to keep everything. Literally.

Lard works great for frying stuff.

But now we're eating, like, WAY too much meat. My family stocked. up. Seriously. We have like 700 pounds of beef and 200 pounds of pork in our freezer.

I made spaghetti and a salad the other day, and someone buggering threw it all out. Bye bye, $13. I miss you. :(

Dario D.
05-24-2008, 02:01 PM
I dropped, like, 50 pounds alone when I stopped eating at fast food joints and drinking soda. But I felt freak'n HUNGRY all the time. (I replaced crap food with real food, and wanted to eat all the time as a result. Go figure?)
Were you watching food carefully, and forcing yourself to not eat certain things? If so, consider that withholding food from yourself destroys your ability to feel full and satisfied, by creating an obsession. Kind of like having a cookie jar for your kids - an excellent way to put them on the path of cr-a-a-a-aving sweets and goodies (at least I would imagine. Mileage may vary), rather than just letting them have the darn things, so they can get over them, and not develop a sense of "must have sweets".

Or, the way this book here puts it [Diets Don't Work (http://www.amazon.com/Diets-Dont-Work-Naturally-Diet-Free/dp/0942540166)], the dieting mindset destroys your system of "satiety" (stupid word for feeling full and satisfied), and should be avoided at pretty much all costs.
-

Simple way to look at it: you know the dogs of people who only feed them a set amount, several times a day? You know how they go absolutely haywire over food, and scarf it down like that's the last food they're ever going to have? And you know how, if they suddenly got unlimited access to food, they would eat till they explode, and gain a ton of weight?

Now look at dogs (like the one I used to have) who always have their food out for them, and can eat at their leisure. They eat casually (leaving plenty of food when they're done) don't get fat, and don't panic in the slightest when you bring them refills. The problem here? Nothing. I used to have a bunch of cats, and they too maintained perfect weight and satiety regarding food.

People are the same way: if you withhold the goods, you learn to obsess over them, and then you can say bye-bye to being able to control your appetite, even when you would *normally* be stuffed till there was food coming out your ears. After lots of dieting, you completely lose whatever natural sense of balance you once had (if any), and food forever becomes a craving.
-

Someone like me, on the other hand (I'm struggling to GAIN weight, and have to eat whatever I can get my hands on, just to keep from disappearing)... *pff*... Food to me (even GOOD food, and sweets) is more of a burden to eat than a leisure. Sure, it can taste good, but it's only when I'm really, really starving that I actually even give it more than a glance. Half the time, I'm already satisfied when I haven't even started eating yet. Drives my mom nuts. :D

But as for the whole weight-loss thing... no amount of eating means anything if you exercise. Half the issue, though, is that people just can't get motivated, because they feel like they have to do "too much" for it to take any effect. Not the case in the slightest. Doing ANYTHING each day is a giant leap in the right direction, and pretty soon the energy you get FROM exercising becomes motivation in itself, as you get over the "this feels like work" curve.

And what is someone like ME doing exercising? Why, trying to put on some pounds, of course! :) (oh, and it's fun, as long as you stop at your limit. I now WANT to get started, whereas at first it was a chore. The whole process feels good now.) And before everyone asks, yes, I will gladly trade some fat with any/all of you. :D

Bartholomew
05-24-2008, 02:24 PM
And before everyone asks, yes, I will gladly trade with any/all of you.

I wouldn't. My fiancee is recovering from anorexia. I panic every time she skips a meal. I'd rather be a little too big than a little too small, but I'd take either one over either extreme.

Brilliant insight, by the way. I work in an environment where I look at food all the time but am not allowed to touch it. I feed my patients three times a day, but am only allowed to eat once.

With your logic applied, my constant hunger makes a bit more sense.

HeronW
05-24-2008, 02:54 PM
Yemeni cooking has oodles of oil, gawd the pastry is awesome with sweet cream cheese and crushed pistachios, um, I regress, anyway--they also use these peppers in their main dishes that would make jalapenos cringe--and Yemenis are a fairly average weight people--the spices burn off the fats.

Bartholomew
05-24-2008, 03:01 PM
Yemeni cooking has oodles of oil, gawd the pastry is awesome with sweet cream cheese and crushed pistachios, um, I regress, anyway--they also use these peppers in their main dishes that would make jalapenos cringe--and Yemenis are a fairly average weight people--the spices burn off the fats.

If jalapeños burn fat, I'm a giant planet-eating noodle.

aruna
05-24-2008, 03:02 PM
Yemeni cooking has oodles of oil, gawd the pastry is awesome with sweet cream cheese and crushed pistachios, um, I regress, anyway--they also use these peppers in their main dishes that would make jalapenos cringe--and Yemenis are a fairly average weight people--the spices burn off the fats.

This is exactly what the Cholesterol Skeptics (http://www.medicalconsumers.org/pages/cholesterol_skeptics.html) are saying*. (Except for the bit about spices burning up the fat.. that I don't believe).
Saturated fats (and lots of it!) has been used in societies all over the world since the beginning of history and these societies have NO RECORD of heart disease and other civilization illnesses. All this cholesterol scare business that "saturated fat is bad for you" only started about 50 years ago and was mostly motivated by commercial interests and advertising, most of all by the soy industry, which if you read another thread in AW is now simply HUGE.

Diet advisers jumped on the bandwagon without there being any evidence to support it and the media followed suit until everybody was shitting in their pants about butter, egg yolks and bacon. It;s all bullshit. Go ahead and eat the tasty stuff. Lowfat diets are truly like cardboard. Yuck.

*

For decades, enormous human and financial resources have been wasted on the cholesterol campaign, more promising research areas have been neglected, producers and manufacturers of animal food all over the world have suffered economically, and millions of healthy people have been frightened and badgered into eating a tedious and flavorless diet or into taking potentially dangerous drugs for the rest of their lives. As the scientific evidence in support of the cholesterol campaign is non-existent, we consider it important to stop it as soon as possible.
The International Network of Cholesterol Skeptics (THINCS) is a steadily growing group of scientists, physicians, other academicians and science writers from various countries. Members of this group represent different views about the causation of atherosclerosis and cardiovascular disease, some of them are in conflict with others, but this is a normal part of science. What we all oppose is that animal fat and high cholesterol play a role. The aim with this website is to inform our colleagues and the public that this idea is not supported by scientific evidence; in fact, for many years a huge number of scientific studies have directly contradicted it.

tjwriter
05-24-2008, 04:47 PM
...the spices burn off the fats.


If jalapeños burn fat, I'm a giant planet-eating noodle.


This is exactly what the Cholesterol Skeptics (http://www.medicalconsumers.org/pages/cholesterol_skeptics.html) are saying*. (Except for the bit about spices burning up the fat.. that I don't believe).

Actually, there is some indication that capsaicin in hot peppers may help keep fledgling fat cells from becoming fat cells (http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20070306/fiery-pepper-fatal-for-fat-cells). It's not conclusive, but it did occur in a tube. In places where diets are high in spicy peppers, there might be high enough concentration to make it true.

NeuroFizz
05-24-2008, 05:12 PM
I can't remember how capsaicin is metabolized, and whether it would ever have any significant direct access to fat cells in the body. Unfortunately, I don't have time to get into it right now. Anyone else?

Seaclusion
05-24-2008, 05:36 PM
Mmmmm. Capsacin. One of the four basic food groups

Richard

aruna
05-24-2008, 06:29 PM
For anyone interested, this website (http://www.second-opinions.co.uk/cholesterol_myth_1.html) tells the story of why we came to believe there is a connection between animal fats and heart disease, and also the most important research done, which could not substantiate the claim. Dr Groves adds:

Despite this wealth of evidence, nutritionists and the media continue to mislead us. They tell us, for example, that the recent fall in the numbers of heart deaths in the USA is because Americans are eating less fat. The graph below, however, shows clearly that while CHD in the USA peaked in the 1950s and has fallen consistently since, this is against a background of rising fat intake.

I find difficulty understanding how the fat hypothesis gained such credibility in the USA as its history more than most does not support it. The North American continent had been opened up by explorers and trappers who lived, very healthily, as did the Amerindians, almost entirely on fresh meat and pemmican. As real pemmican is half dried lean meat and half rendered animal fat, and as fat has over twice the calorific value of protein, more than seventy percent of the energy in their diet came from fat.

SPMiller
05-24-2008, 06:44 PM
I seem to recall that agricultural technologies, although enabling modern civilization by creating work surplus, also greatly accelerated tooth decay via much higher carbohydrate intake.

maestrowork
05-24-2008, 08:28 PM
Saturated fats (and lots of it!) has been used in societies all over the world since the beginning of history and these societies have NO RECORD of heart disease and other civilization illnesses. All this cholesterol scare business that "saturated fat is bad for you" only started about 50 years ago and was mostly motivated by commercial interests and advertising, most of all by the soy industry, which if you read another thread in AW is now simply HUGE.*

It's not true, Aruna. Heart disease is increasing in Asia -- though not as severe as in the western world -- and high blood pressure and strokes remain top killers in those countries. My mom developed heart disease in her 50s -- she loved her fatty and salty food. I really don't buy that there was NO RECORDS of heart diseases. My mom worked at a hospital in Hong Kong. Yes, there were plenty of heart patients. I think in the past people just didn't know what the heck they were talking about. People just dropped dead.

People need to realize your body needs fat. And not all fat are bad for you. For example nuts and legumes are full of unsaturated fat but they're actually good for you. They help lowering LDLs and increase HDLs. Omega-3 lowers LDLs and it's itself a fatty acid (although unsaturated), same with flaxseed oil.

The idea is moderation, and monitoring. My dad's diet in the past have been filled with bad fat, carbs, trans fat, etc. A lot of lard cooking. The thing is he didn't know about moderation. His cholesterol (LDLs) was constantly high -- resulting in high blood pressure and everything else. The good thing is he also likes to eat fish. His problems only became obvious when he reaches 65. Now he's on an Omega-3 regimen and his LDLs are at an EXTREMELY good level now.

His doctor actually told him to cut all his cholesterol medications -- they have side effects and are hard on the liver. The best advice my dad's gotten in recent years.

I myself take Omega-3 and eat a bag of almonds every week. My LDL used to be over 220, and I wasn't even overweight. I just didn't know what I was doing, and I ate crap. Now my LDL is about 120. It's not the best, but near optimal.

aruna
05-24-2008, 10:12 PM
It's not true, Aruna. Heart disease is increasing in Asia -- though not as severe as in the western world -- and high blood pressure and strokes remain top killers in those countries. My mom developed heart disease in her 50s -- she loved her fatty and salty food. I really don't buy that there was NO RECORDS of heart diseases. My mom worked at a hospital in Hong Kong. Yes, there were plenty of heart patients. I think in the past people just didn't know what the heck they were talking about. People just dropped dead.

People need to realize your body needs fat. And not all fat are bad for you. For example nuts and legumes are full of unsaturated fat but they're actually good for you. They help lowering LDLs and increase HDLs. Omega-3 lowers LDLs and it's itself a fatty acid (although unsaturated), same with flaxseed oil.

The idea is moderation, and monitoring. My dad's diet in the past have been filled with bad fat, carbs, trans fat, etc. A lot of lard cooking. The thing is he didn't know about moderation. His cholesterol (LDLs) was constantly high -- resulting in high blood pressure and everything else. The good thing is he also likes to eat fish. His problems only became obvious when he reaches 65. Now he's on an Omega-3 regimen and his LDLs are at an EXTREMELY good level now.

His doctor actually told him to cut all his cholesterol medications -- they have side effects and are hard on the liver. The best advice my dad's gotten in recent years.

I myself take Omega-3 and eat a bag of almonds every week. My LDL used to be over 220, and I wasn't even overweight. I just didn't know what I was doing, and I ate crap. Now my LDL is about 120. It's not the best, but near optimal.

Yes, but your mother's lifetime counts as modern... Asia is following America's trend, and since then the rate is increasing.

For me personally, the investigation into fats began with coconut oil, which was demonized off the US market in the early 50's. Coconut farmers all over the third world went broke; all over the world, even in their own countries where the'd used it safely for generations, coconut oil was hunted down as a killer. It was ll nothing but propaganda. Coconut oil is just about the healthiest oil there is (do some investigating and you'll see!)

in India, people in states like Kerala relied 100% on coconut oil but were told to change to unsaturated fats because "coconut oil is dangerous". The result is that the heart disease rate shot up into the skies after the change! (I donlt have a link on this right now but I read it in a book by a fats expert (ary Enig) and it might be googlable.

Read that article I posted. It;s very interesting. A lot of the cholesterol stuff is all myth and hearsay according to a whole lot of fat experts.

But best of luck to your parents; if you are ill some of the messages can be very confusing and sometimes it is all trial and error. different things work for different people.

ETA and congratulations to your dad for cutting his medication!

jannawrites
05-25-2008, 12:22 AM
Oh, what I wouldn't give for a bunch of McDonald's fries right now. Trans fats or no.

*drools*

Bartholomew
05-25-2008, 12:38 AM
Actually, there is some indication that capsaicin in hot peppers may help keep fledgling fat cells from becoming fat cells (http://www.webmd.com/diet/news/20070306/fiery-pepper-fatal-for-fat-cells). It's not conclusive, but it did occur in a tube. In places where diets are high in spicy peppers, there might be high enough concentration to make it true.

Well, shit. I guess I'll start with Venus.

Brutal Mustang
05-25-2008, 12:49 AM
And before everyone asks, yes, I will gladly trade with any/all of you.

No you don't!

Susie
05-25-2008, 02:08 AM
Now I'm totally bummed out and lost my happy buzz. (but not for long). :)

jannawrites
05-25-2008, 02:12 AM
Now I'm totally bummed out and lost my happy buzz.

I didn't know that could happen!


(but not for long). :)

Okay, that's better. :)

Susie
05-25-2008, 02:14 AM
:roll: I'm bbbbbbbbbaaaaaaacccccckkkkkk! :) Thx much for the regroup, Janna. :)

maestrowork
05-25-2008, 02:42 AM
Yes, but your mother's lifetime counts as modern... Asia is following America's trend, and since then the rate is increasing.

Not really. I didn't grow up following any American trend.

By the way, my grandmother died of a stroke. She was hardly a "modern" or "western" woman. Two of my uncles had heart diseases and again, they did not follow America's trend. They were both heavy-set and ate a lot of local stuff, including fried stuff.

I seriously doubt there were no records of heart disease in Asia in the past 5000 years.

I do agree that not all oil and fat are bad. Peanut oil is actually recommended for heart patients. They're good for HDLs. I think we do agree that the generalization of "all fat is bad for you" is just a propaganda. But that doesn't mean we should start loading up on lard.

aruna
05-25-2008, 09:25 AM
I seriously doubt there were no records of heart disease in Asia in the past 5000 years.

I do agree that not all oil and fat are bad. Peanut oil is actually recommended for heart patients. They're good for HDLs. I think we do agree that the generalization of "all fat is bad for you" is just a propaganda. But that doesn't mean we should start loading up on lard.

Well "no record" was probably an exaggeration and I'll amend that to "very few cases!"
I'm basing my statements on the research of a certain Dr Weston Price, who investigated diet and health; he found that in traditional societies where they used natural fats the people were healthy and free from the usual civilization illnesses such as heart disease and stroke.

I agree that there are good fats and bad fats, and most people these days seem to be saying that; however, based on my own findings, my opinion as to what are good and bad fats are the exact opposite to the general consensus... certainly, there's been an unjust witch hunt against animal fats and coconut oil. But you can't say that out loud in some circles.

And as always, moderation is the key. Pigging out is never good.
And here's a controversial article I found this morning on the Weston Price site:
The Benefits of High Cholesterol (http://www.westonaprice.org/moderndiseases/benefits_cholest.html)

Christine N.
05-25-2008, 04:09 PM
I would agree with the statement that until recently many people in places like Italy, where they eat a great deal of olive oil, and Asia, where fish was a common staple, suffered less from the effects of saturated fats. Not to say they didn't have heart disease - because there are more causes than just bad diet, like genetics.

But what both those countries, as most Eurpoean countries, have in common, is that the people WALK everywhere. There are few cars, and people walk or ride a bike to get where they have to go. So their baseline fitness is far above ours. America's just not set up for such a culture, because we're all spread out here in the suburbs, instead of being in little self-sustaning villages. I mean, look at France - huge amounts of cream and butter used in cooking, but they don't seem to have an obesity problem. They eat in moderation and MOVE.

So I think it's a combination of diet and lifestyle.

And as for McD's - I don't much care about the fries, it's always the salt I liked anyway. I remember them being so good when I was a kid, I guess that's when they used the beef fat. I'm glad they removed the trans fat voluntarily, because that's how it should be.

trumancoyote
05-25-2008, 10:02 PM
I'm not buying it either, Aruna. For one, this dude seems like he's analyzing these places' medical history from a perspective of Western Medicine, which wasn't prevalent in Asia AT ALL until the last century.

So what might've been seen as too much Male Energy, could've been heart disease. What might've been seen as having too little water, or wind, or metal, or anything in one's body, could've been heart disease.

And if someone's problem was diagnosed as being heart-related, the cure would often be --get this, it's clever-- eating the hearts of other animals. And I doubt they kept records of such... prescriptions.

Apples and oranges.

... or Durian and Snozzberries, as the case may be.

aruna
05-25-2008, 10:47 PM
I'm not buying it either, Aruna. For one, this dude seems like he's analyzing these places' medical history from a perspective of Western Medicine, which wasn't prevalent in Asia AT ALL until the last century.



.
Well as far as Kerala is concerned, there is no doubt that the heart disease rate leaped without explanation in tandem with the injunction that they should stop using coconut oil as it "caused heart disease". Pretty strange, don't you think.

Just to use one example. I don't have the time to research this any more right now, but there's a whole gang of leading lipid experts who agree with him and I am pretty sure they are not just wildly guessing.

The fact is, it has simply not yet been proven that cholesterol in food causes coronary heart disease. That Barry Groves site I posted earlier cites all the major long-term research that actually set out to prove that this was the case, but couldn't. But that mantra has been repeated so often that most people simply accept it unquestioned.

trumancoyote
05-25-2008, 11:33 PM
My guess is that their hearts all just broke over the collapse of their economy. So in essence, the two are related, but just more hilariously than you thought! :D

rhymegirl
05-25-2008, 11:34 PM
Zachariah is here!!

Christine N.
05-25-2008, 11:35 PM
No, I've always been told that same thing (and I was in sports medicine for a few years, remember - I had to take classes like Energy and Nutrient Metabolism) and that's always been the edict - eating cholesterol won't give you high cholestoral. Your body forms cholesterol from things you eat. I've never heard anything different. For awhile back there in the '80's, eggs got a bad rap for being high in cholesterol. Then they discovered that yes, they had it, but it wasn't the kind that was necessarily bad for you. Moderation. Just like Omega-3 fats are good for you, all cholesterol is not created equal.

And your body makes natural forms of cholesterol that you absolutely need to survive. Places like the adrenal glands thrive on the stuff. Natural steroids your body produces come from cholesterol. Same thing with avacadoes. "Oh, they're so high in fat! Don't eat them!" Now we know it's fat your body uses effectively and productively. I wouldn't eat plates of guacamole, but a bit on your corn chips isn't terribly bad for you (though the corn chips, on the other hand...)

It's when man artificially produces stuff by introducing hydrogen atoms into it (which was done for a longer shelf life, nothing else) is when it messes everything up. I wouldn't go around eating sticks of butter, but overall butter isn't the devil incarnate.

I agree with you Aruna - oils that come from nature are probably better for you than artificially produced. That being said, each individual processes things differently, so someone prone to heart disease might benefit from less oils than others.

aruna
05-25-2008, 11:39 PM
BTW and thread derail... good to see you survived the Quake... we were thinking of you. The stories coming out of China get worse by the day. Those poor parents, especially.

My sojn is also there now and says foreigners are being evacuated.

trumancoyote
05-25-2008, 11:43 PM
Yeah, it's pretty nasty. At first no one really understood how big and serious it was, but these last couple days the death-toll's been going up -- not by the hundreds and thousands, like before, but by the ten-thousands.

I'm glad your son is safe, Aruna. Tell him to evacuate carefully; things can get pretty chaotic the closer one gets to the disaster area.

rhymegirl
05-25-2008, 11:50 PM
Glad you are okay, Zach. You better take care of yourself. That's an order!

maestrowork
05-25-2008, 11:57 PM
I think we should know ourselves and our health. If you have high LDL, then you should examine your diet and lifestyle and if you see yourself eating a lot of meat and saturated fat, etc. then you may consider adjusting your diet and see if it helps. My LDL used to be over 220 and I wasn't even overweight. I adjusted my diet and it came way back down. My dad's been on cholesterol medication for a while but now he switches to Omega-3 and his LDL is down to normal. So do what works for you.

I'm still not loading up on lard. That stuff is nasty.

rhymegirl
05-25-2008, 11:59 PM
I think that would make a good song title. "I'm Not Loadin' Up on Lard."

Shadow_Ferret
05-27-2008, 06:03 PM
I tried veggies once. My body rejected them.

No kidding. I have to limit my flora intake because it just gives me all sorts of gastrointestinal distress.

And technically, I've been starch intolerant since I was a child.

Oh, and I'm lacto-intolerant, too.

That's leaves meat and jello.

I hate jello.

Bartholomew
06-09-2008, 01:34 PM
No kidding. I have to limit my flora intake because it just gives me all sorts of gastrointestinal distress.

And technically, I've been starch intolerant since I was a child.

Oh, and I'm lacto-intolerant, too.

That's leaves meat and jello.

I hate jello.

That still leaves types alien matter.

soleary
06-09-2008, 03:14 PM
Transfat -- is that the same as cross dressing fat? Because if it is, I certainly believe in Transfat's right to express itself. Just maybe not in my fries or on my thighs.