Unusual POV question

boethos · May 16, 2008

I've been searching the forums to learn about POV and POV changes. I have come to the conclusion that I'm using third person limited, switching the POV between main characters at scene changes only and that is fine.

Good so far. Here's the point I have a question about:

There is a character (A) in my story who starts out as a disembodied spirit. I do a couple of short scenes with him, first floating in some ambiguous dark place then feeling something summoning him into the world. When he enters the world, he comes in by possessing the body of another character (M).
How do you all think that event should be handled as a POV question?

Currently I have the transition done from A's point of view, but there is another scene in the same chapter from M's point of view so I'm thinking I should combine the two scenes. (A's "scene" is strictly mental, it's all his thoughts and the taking over of M's mind, and it's a short scene.) If I start from M's point of view then switch to A's point of view as he takes over the body within the same scene, does that count as head-jumping? Because technically the POV stays in the same 'head', it's just that the head gets taken over by a different character...

Matera the Mad · May 16, 2008

IMO a head is a head, whether or not it has a body

Ruv Draba · May 17, 2008

Hi and welcome Boethos.

In my view, the main reason for doing PoV shifts is to provide contrasts to support your themes.

Most writers have an intuitive sense of what a theme is, but some don't, so here's my take on it:

A theme is a recurrent idea in the story - often expressed as an either/or conflict. For example: Trust vs Suspicion, or Honesty vs Loyalty. Sometimes themes are expressed as a true/false proposition, e.g. "Beware what you wish for - you might not always like it if you get it." - often stories will explore the pros and cons of such statements.

Themes are somewhat interpretative, yet readers often find the same themes in the same story.

Themes are typically revealed through contrasting character arcs (e.g. see how the fortunes of two characters compare - or the same character at different imes), or relationship development (e.g. contrast two marriages), or story arcs (e.g. two kinds of hunts), or some combination. For example in Thomas Harris' Silence of the Lambs we watch FBI agent Clarice Starling hunting for a serial killer, while convicted serial killer Hannibal Lecter hunts for the truth about her. I view this interpretatively as the proposition that "to catch a madman, we must confront the madness in ourselves", but equally one might view it as the tension between sanity/insanity, trust/suspicion, morality/immorality.

You don't always need a PoV shift to reveal theme, but my suggestion is to only consider Pov shift when you need thematic contrast.

Some writers also do PoV shifts to impart plot information, or to try to create suspense (e.g. PoV shift to make a cliffhanger), or because they have a large, epic plot that just requires PoV jumps (Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is a bit like that.) In all these cases my suggetion is to use no more PoV jumps than you must, and PoV jump on a thematic contrast whenever you can. This makes it look much less cheesy; it's less disruptive; and (I believe) irritates the reader less.

On this basis, if you switch from A to M, I believe that it should probably be because of some contrast between characters, relationships or storylines that you want to reveal at that time. Since I don't yet know what those contrasts are (or what your themes might be), I can't advise you on whether to do it or not, but hopefully this perspective will help you decide for yourself whether it's appropriate.

If you want your PoV jumps to be theme driven but aren't sure of your themes (this happens with some very intuitive writers), then you may wish to discuss more here. If you do, and you'd like some commentary feel free to shoot me a PM. I love talks about themes, but they don't seem to come up in writing discussion much.

Hope this is vaguely useful. Best of luck!

Ruv.

boethos · May 17, 2008

Thanks to both of you.
Matera thanks for the concise expression of opinion.

Ruv the idea of themes is interesting, and I think I can see your point, but it doesn't necessarily answer my problem. Maybe a little more information will help.

A is the main antag, he was killed in the past (before the book scope, but there is a flashback late in the book that explains it) and he has been trying to come back into the world and take revenge on the family of the one who killed him.

M is a very minor antag, he's searching for ways to gain personal power. He contacts A as a spirit, thinking to use him to gain power. Instead A possesses M's body and takes it over.

So basically this is M's death scene - he is in the process of executing nefarious plans and BOOM he becomes somebody else. M has POV in the early chapters when he is making his plans and carrying them out. A has POV as a spirit, making plans to come back into the world. Here they collide, and A comes out the winner. I would make it strictly A's POV but first M is doing things and thinking that A can't see from his POV.
Of course the difference is in the details, and in the 'feel' of the scene as it connects to the larger story (or theme.) I guess I can't expect people who haven't even read the story to make a choice for my book, I'm just looking for general POV thoughts and maybe if someone else has read/written a similar scenario.

dawinsor · May 17, 2008

If it were me, I'd stay in A's POV, letting him feel or hear M's thoughts as he's taken over.

boethos · May 18, 2008

dawinsor said:
If it were me, I'd stay in A's POV, letting him feel or hear M's thoughts as he's taken over.

I might could pull that off, but it seems like it would be a difficult way to do it. Letting one character hear the thoughts of another while sharing the same body could get sticky...

Nightfall · May 18, 2008

Oh! I was thinking you were going to have dueling personalities in the one body. That would make me want to see both POVs.

I'm not sure if you need to have Charater B's POV at all if he appears briefly and his sole purpose is to die and allow Charater A to have his body.

That being said, ask yourself which way will make the scene have the most impact and forward the story?

Kalyke · May 18, 2008

It depends if M continues to inhabit the body. Ann Rice's "The Body Snatcher" was about Lestat the Vampire being trapped in a human man's body. The human did not inhabit the body (I believe he was killed somewhere along the line), so Lestat became the person. It was written in first person.

You are saying that there are 2 people simultaneously in the body? Something like a two headed snake? I'd have one first person, and the second, third person.

boethos · May 19, 2008

Use Her Name said:
It depends if M continues to inhabit the body. Ann Rice's "The Body Snatcher" was about Lestat the Vampire being trapped in a human man's body. The human did not inhabit the body (I believe he was killed somewhere along the line), so Lestat became the person. It was written in first person.

You are saying that there are 2 people simultaneously in the body? Something like a two headed snake? I'd have one first person, and the second, third person.

In the beginning there are two people simultaneously in the body, but only one of them is 'conscious' at a time. The particular scene I'm referring to is the final 'coming forward' of A - after that scene M is never heard from again. He becomes for all purposes dead, like in the example you gave, it just takes a while to happen. He is a fairly minor character (his 'final exit' is 1/3 of the way through the book) but he does have POV in some of the early chapters.

Ruv Draba · May 19, 2008

boethos said:
Ruv the idea of themes is interesting, and I think I can see your point, but it doesn't necessarily answer my problem. Maybe a little more information will help.

Boethos, I replied by PM, but will comment here too since others may be interested.

A is the main antag, he was killed in the past (before the book scope, but there is a flashback late in the book that explains it) and he has been trying to come back into the world and take revenge on the family of the one who killed him.

M is a very minor antag, he's searching for ways to gain personal power. So basically this is M's death scene

Is this primarily an intro scene for A, or an exit scene for M? You've described it as an exit scene but it looks more like intro to me. I'd thought of M as major, but now M looks like just an usher/shieldbearer/herald/redshirt role.

If that's true then I'd stay with M's PoV right through to destruction for the simple reason that the reader will want to know who the heck A is. Give away the nature of your antagonist and you've given away a lot of the story's interest; withhold it and you'll give them reason to turn the pages.

That said, there are thematic concerns too. If A embodies a key story theme then you may want to introduce that theme when you introduce A. You can introduce it either through dialogue with M, or by jumping to A's viewpoint. Which of those things is more useful depends on how the rest of the story unfolds.

It's possible to write a story from a charater's viewpoint so that the reader will only gradually get to know the character - but that will almost certainly make A your principal character. It's much easier to write it from another's viewpoint, and gain information about A by objective evidence. Both can be used to build whatever themes A holds.

In particular, you might want to consider thematic contrasts between:

What your protagonist(s) want
What your antagonist wants
How they interact with each other over it
How they each interact with the world over their desires

In the light of the above I'd suggest not making A viewpoint at all unless 2 and 4) have a lot of depth, complexity, contradictions and contrasts. Tolkien never put Sauron centre stage, but rather occasionally cut to Sauron's agents. Harris put Lecter centre stage in Lecter, but in doing so made him the protagonist; in Silence of the Lambs, we never got Lecter's PoV.

Hope this might help more than my last post.

boethos · May 19, 2008

Ruv Draba said:
.....Is this primarily an intro scene for A, or an exit scene for M? You've described it as an exit scene but it looks more like intro to me. I'd thought of M as major, but now M looks like just an usher/shieldbearer/herald/redshirt role.
........
In particular, you might want to consider thematic contrasts between:

What your protagonist(s) want

What your antagonist wants

How they interact with each other over it

How they each interact with the world over their desires

In the light of the above I'd suggest not making A viewpoint at all unless 2 and 4) have a lot of depth, complexity, contradictions and contrasts. Tolkien never put Sauron centre stage, but rather occasionally cut to Sauron's agents. Harris put Lecter centre stage in Lecter, but in doing so made him the protagonist; in Silence of the Lambs, we never got Lecter's PoV.

Hope this might help more than my last post.

Aaahhhh.... excellent observations.
To the first question, whether it is an exit scene for M or an intro scene for A, the answer is mainly an exit scene for M. At the moment, anyway; that may change with editing.
The reason is because I already introduced A as a disembodied spirit. So this isn't the first time that the reader meets A, but it is the last time they see M.

As for POV making a protagonist, that's something I hadn't considered deeply but I believe is true. The problem here is, they are both antagonists. Only A is more antagonistic than M. M is more just the ambitious fool who got himself in to more than he could handle. So I don't mind if the reader sympathizes with M, especially since it will strengthen the idea I was trying for - take care that you are not destroyed by your own out-of-control ambitions.

Then again, there is one sympathy chord being played for A as well. His 'fall' began as nothing worse than a thirst for knowledge, and his current predicament is from his point a legitimate quest for revenge on the family of a man who wronged him. From that perspective, I may still switch the POV to both of them so the reader can in turn sympathize with each and think, 'there but for the grace of ... go I.'

Unusual POV question

How would you write a scene like the one described?

Keep it as two scenes, one as M and one as A.

Combine it into one scene, M's POV all the way.

Combine it into one scene, switch POV from M to A.

Need more information / I'm confused.

Other - see post.

boethos

Matera the Mad

Bartender, gimme a Linux Mint

Ruv Draba

boethos

dawinsor

Dorothy A. Winsor

boethos

Nightfall

Kalyke

boethos

Ruv Draba

boethos