Help with Fight Scenes

Black-Tooth · May 16, 2008

Hello everybody!

I've done a search, but couldn't really find anything with regards to advice for writing a fight scene. I know it'll probablly be quite hard to get help with out posting my own work, but I can't at the moment...
Are there any tips you could pass on about making fights tense?

I've always been told short sentences are good for fightscenes, but Michael Crichton uses quite lengthy sentences but his fights are awesome.

Thanks,

WriteKnight · May 16, 2008

I've actually ghost written some fight scenes for Romance Writers. (Yes, published).

I did it because they felt they couldn't 'do it'.

There are technical reasons - perhaps the characters are using a special type of weaponry, or are procient in some particular form of martial art. As a writer we can spend the time to learn through research/reading/pratice - or ask an expert. Experts can help fill in the little technical details. Everything from proper names for weapons or moves to the actual 'feeling' - emotional and physical - that might come with combat.

So, by all means - help the experts on the board HELP YOU. Help them by giving them a leg up on your story. Is it period? Are there weapons? Is it comic or realistic?

(The same things a fight choreographer must ask.)

Because really - that's what you are doing. Choreographing a scene. (Yes, its the same with sex in erotica). You have to ask the same questions one would ask of the actors.

Are the characters EXPERIENCED in these actions?

WHAT ARE THEIR MOTIVATIONS? Fear? Anger? Vengence? Hate? Righteous indignation? These motivations help to shape the form of their combat. Aggressive -confident - timid - fumbling and so on.

What is the purpose of the scene? (Does there have to be a particular physical outcome? A wound? A secret revealed? The plot advanced?)

A good fight scene will flow just like dialogue. Action - reaction. Missed cues... miscommunication... crosstalking... pausing for another go - surprising revelations - even a change of 'direction'.

And of course the STYLE of the fight must suit the style of the story. I took great pains when ghostwriting - to emulate the writing around the scene as much as possible. And of course, the writer went in and 'fleshed' it out a bit as well.

I think about all of this BEFORE I construct the scene.

And then it goes into rewrites

Barber · May 16, 2008

In earlier drafts of choreographing fight scenes in a book, I went overboard with various martial arts jargon. Then I had to edit it all out with simpler words.

I don't know if my advice is obvious or helpful, but I guess I'll say you might want to use commonly known words since not everybody who reads fight scenes are trained in martial arts.

I've also found shorter sentences work better (as you mentioned). And *it seems* to be easier for readers if you slip into telling instead of showing, like skipping excessive detail.

As a reader, nothing thrills me more than a detailed fight scene (even if it's reading a summary of the opening film to video games), but I know many readers who skip fight scenes altogether when reading action books. Can you believe that?!!!

dpaterso · May 17, 2008

What's the setting? What weapons, tactics and props are available?

A common problem I see in fight scenes is, too much deliberation and not enough desperation.

-Derek

HeronW · May 17, 2008

Motive for fight, setting --place and time, weapons, armor/protection, level of ability, emotional/mental feel--lots of variables for dif. types of encounters from hand-to-hand 1:1 to melees. What's yours?

Ruv Draba · May 17, 2008

A fight scene is just a conflict scene that gets physical, so the rules/guides that apply to conflict scenes apply here too. My key rules are:

Give each character an objective driven by a motive, some opposition and risk of disaster
Make sure each character exits the conflict either revealed somehow or changed somehow

Past that, I feel that the rest is style and enjoyment. I posted quite a long response here that may help. Hope it's useful!

Linda Adams · May 17, 2008

Make sure you read books with fight scenes that use the same viewpoint you're using to see how it's done. Surprisingly, that makes a big difference in how the fight scene is structured. In my last book, I had a lot of problems with the fight scenes because that particular story should have been in omniscient, and it was in third. Now I'm curious--I'll have to see what viewpoint Michael Crichton writes in.

However, one of the things I see is that people tend to write the fight scenes blow by blow. Like they're watching the scene and recording it--George delivered a roundhouse punch. Alan staggered back, then leapt at George.

Which turns into a fight scene that's a short paragraph and not very exciting. The details are what makes a huge difference in adding suspense, tension, excitement, and danger to the fight. I think sometimes people are reluctant to add details because they feel the details with slow the fight down. It is important to pick the right details that add to the fight--it certainly wouldn't be good to stop in the middle of the scene and do an info dump about character's backstory.

Some other noteworthy things:

Watch for repetition. It's too easy to keep saying "he punched" or "he kicked," and you have to get creative so it doesn't sound like a rerun of the last blow. It'll teach you to be a better writer, though, because you'll have to think about how the build the sentences differently.

Watch out for phrases like "suddenly" and "all of a sudden." These often don't add anything and can be a crutch for not showing the suddenness in the fight.

Since you like Crichton's fight scenes, reread them, sentence by sentence and study how he puts them together. Look for the actual aciton that occurs, the character's reaction, and the details provided.

Black-Tooth · May 18, 2008

Well...It's in the Fantasy genre. The cultures range from Celt type technology, all the way up to the middle ages. The only weapons that exist at this particular fight are swords and fists. There are a lot of jokes throughout the narrative, but I wanted the fight scenes to be realistic.

This part is where one of the main characters, 'The Tough Hero' type, gets completely battered by someone bigger, stronger and plain better than him. This is used to give him lots of self doubt and fear that travels throughout the story.

Linda, you mentioned about blow-by-blow being quite dull if the details aren't in there. What type of details should be added? Inner thoughts, weather/enviromental effects?

Thanks so far, guys and gals!

Kalyke · May 18, 2008

Think Choreography. What did the fight do? What effect did the fight have on the rest of the environment. You're talking about a few people or two basically dashing madly around hitting each other. I've seen several "real" fights-- they are usually sudden and brutal. I've rarely seen a person not go down after a few punches. Generally men seem to rabbit punch the sides before going in for a jaw punch. In movies the fights last way too long. I really don't feel that anyone can actually stay up and swinging as long as I have seen in many of these action adventures. The victim seems to be able to jump around right afterwards like a super human. So since you are writing in the fantasy genre, your fight would be totally different than a fight in a realistic novel. You could do the whole ninja freezing in the middle of a huge leap thing.

I've written a few fight scenes and they tend to be extremely fast. In my world actual violent physical contact is fairly rare, just as in this world. People can sue you if you hit them.

Linda Adams · May 18, 2008

Black-Tooth said:
Linda, you mentioned about blow-by-blow being quite dull if the details aren't in there. What type of details should be added? Inner thoughts, weather/enviromental effects?

Everything that's going on during the fight that makes the fight suspenseful, dangerous, and exciting. Think not just about the blows each character delivers, but their reactions as they experience the fight. The reactions can be physical, like reeling from a blow or experiencing pain; they could be in a panic trying to come up with solutions of how to stay alive. If the weather conditions make it hard for the hero, bring that element in. Your character's own characterization and personality should also come into play.

BlueLucario · May 22, 2008

Here you go my friend.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=93396

Also I do have some advice for you, but this comes from my writing experience, so I could be wrong.

Is your story character driven? (when the character is the story.) Try to think of how a character would react to in a situation. Tell me how he felt, and his actions based on it. If it's fear or anger, then the action should be impulsive. Don't plan what's going to happen, just write what's going on now, and make sure your character's taking over, not the author. Writing without planning can lead to pointless meandering, although annoying, it's something that can be fixed later.

Also, I'm having difficulty writing a fight scene, because it's extremely difficult to balance plot with character. I plan for something to happen later, but I write a good action scene, but it comes off as forced.

Back to the character-driven bit: Oh, make sure when your character takes action, make sure there's a good reason for why he's doing it, not because the story needs it to happen.

Sarpedon · May 22, 2008

Learn your system.

If they are fighting with guns, learn about guns from the appropriate time period. Learn how accurate they are, how many shots they fire, how easy they are to reload, how heavy they are, what can go wrong with them, etc.

If they are fighting with swords, learn about the different types of swords, armor, and techniques. If you say 'rapier' know what a 'rapier' is. If you say 'Longsword' know what that is. (Hint, it aint what it says in DnD books!) Whatever you do, don't make up names of fighting moves, and then use those in place of descriptions, like Robert Jordan did. And visit this site: http://www.schielhau.org/tal.html

If they are fighting unarmed, take a class, or read a REPUTABLE non-fiction martial arts book. Or visit your library and get a DVD about it.

dgiharris · May 22, 2008

I think that writing a 'fight scene' is the same as any scene (as was stated above).

Also, as was stated above, I suggest that you read a book with a lot of fight scenes.

If you are talking about a fantasy setting, then I recommend, The Dark Elf Trilogy by R.A. Salvatore. 1st book is Homeland.

It is a quick book 200 pages or so. And has amazing fight scenes.

I'd also recommend you finding a friend that knows somethign about fighting, and do some sparing with him or her.

Seriously.

There is no substitute for experience. Also, what Sarpedon said, gets some DvD's watch some UFC matches. When you write the scenes, you don't want to write 'about it' you want to write 'as if it is happening!!!' You want to BE the fight scene. Feel it, touch it, taste it. That is why getting some experience will help. You can get that experience vicariously or actually do it. I recommend both. Even a 'soft' sparing sessions at half speed is helpful

Good luck

Mel...

lucky8 · May 23, 2008

With regards your question about sentence length; the way I look at it is in relation to film speeds. Shorter sentences will keep things moving quickly, longer sentences will slow things down. Now that isn't to say that one is better than the other, try mixing them up. The Matrix had some great slow motion sequences during fights.

para · May 23, 2008

On one of my loops there was a really long discussion about fight scenes.
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fantasy_Writing/
You have to be a member to read the posts. The discussion starts here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fantasy_Writing/message/40228
Splits off here
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Fantasy_Writing/message/40239

Mumut · May 23, 2008

lucky8 said:
Shorter sentences will keep things moving quickly, longer sentences will slow things down. Now that isn't to say that one is better than the other, try mixing them up.

I agree with this but I don't suggest just mixing it up. If the two compatants are circling each other warily, waiting for a chance to land a blow, use longer sentences. Then strike! Use shorter words to bring speed and tension to the action.

Also, I think the fighter who starts to lose ground would revert to dirty tricks. Most combat was termin for the loser so any strategy was a good one that saved his life. So don't stick to the Marquis of Salisbury rules.

dpaterso · May 23, 2008

I'm just sayin', I half-expected to see folks posting some short samples in this thread, e.g. "Here are a couple of paragraphs from my latest fight scene," or 100 words of "Here's how I'd write two swordsmen fighting in a narrow alleyway/a forest clearing/a crowded tavern," etc. I can only squeeze so much goodness out of just talking about it.

-Derek

Linda Adams · May 23, 2008

dpaterso said:
I'm just sayin', I half-expected to see folks posting some short samples in this thread, e.g. "Here are a couple of paragraphs from my latest fight scene," or 100 words of "Here's how I'd write two swordsmen fighting in a narrow alleyway/a forest clearing/a crowded tavern," etc. I can only squeeze so much goodness out of just talking about it.

-Derek

Okay, one fight scene coming up ...

Brief Background: This is an urban fantasy done in omniscient and set in a modern fictional country. The men are underground in a very narrow tunnel that doesn't have any light.

----

As he turned, he caught a flash of movement in the corner of his eye. The next instant, a dark shape leapt at him.

The blow threw Keymas back, into West and Groll. His hand slammed into the wall, knocking the flashlight from his grip. It tumbled to the ground, light bouncing, as the world in front of him went suddenly dark. Somehow, he managed to hang onto the sword.

Groll recovered first, jabbing blindly at the attacker over Keymas' shoulder with the pike pole. It had seemed silly to bring the pike pole, but now Groll found it to be a lifesaver. The hook hit something that should have felt like a human body but had unexpected hardness. But it moved back with a grunt of surprise and pain.

"Light!" Keymas yelled. It was challenging enough defending himself in the narrow tunnel, but without light, it was almost impossible. He scanned the darkness, searching for any sign of movement that would give away the attacker's location.

West tried to reach one of the fallen flashlights, but being jammed between the two men in the narrow confines of the tunnel made it difficult to move. A foot was in the way--he couldn't even tell whose foot it was.

Keymas rotated his sword in figure eights to keep whatever it was away from him. Maniacal laughter cackled, startlingly near. Something whooshed through the air at him, thin and whip-like. Pain burned down his forearm, laying open his sleeve and his skin.

He slashed the sword at the whip-like object. The laughter turned into a cry of pain, and then it was moving fast, away from them.

[SIZE=+0][/SIZE]

BlueLucario · May 23, 2008

Oh, did I forget to mention this? Try not to use movies as resources for the story. (Grrr...Take this advice, I found that out the hard and painful way. I'm starting to hate movies.) In my opinion, movies suck, because what seems plausible in movies won't be as plausible in novels. Movies scenes go by faster than books and the viewers won't have time to stop and think if a stunt like that is possible. To me, it's really difficult whether you obtained ideas from research or from the movies. I wrote a fight scene a couple of weeks ago, and I visualized it like it was an anime, it was just this once that I thought of having my characters calling out their attacks before they execute them, but it wasn't a good idea. Some readers aren't anime fans and would probably be thrown off if I tried that.

EDIT: My last tip: In order to keep the scene interesting, keep the pacing up to speed, sometimes it can be easy. And try not to describe petty things in the middle of the action, because it can slow everything down.

dpaterso: Hey, that's a good idea.

dpaterso · May 23, 2008

Linda Adams said:
Groll recovered first, jabbing blindly at the attacker over Keymas' shoulder with the pike pole. It had seemed silly to bring the pike pole, but now Groll found it to be a lifesaver. The hook hit something that should have felt like a human body but had unexpected hardness. But it moved back with a grunt of surprise and pain.

Oooh, intrusive!

That's the only thing that stuck out.

-Derek

murmel · May 24, 2008

Interesting discussion... and yes, you receive a blow on your chin and out you are. And no, the likelyhood that twenty men discharge their machine guns at you without any hit is pretty slim.

I'm still not convinced that men crashing their swords into each other are having a lot of emotional thoughts. All is focused on how to end the fight favourably. Perhaps a "Die f*** a***" style type of thing.

So, maybe, novellists are a bit off reality here as well.

?

maestrowork · May 24, 2008

I think it's all about pacing and getting your readers involved so they're not just "reading" it but actually experiencing it. Do you want the pace to be breakneck (pun intended) leaving the readers out of breath? Is the fight fast and furious by itself: chop chop, bing-bam-boom? Or is it epic? Epic fights probably need a longer pace and bigger scope in descriptions, etc.

It also depends on the POV. If it's omniscient or if the POV character is in a position to observe, then I think the pacing and wording may be different than if the POV character is inside the fight and he doesn't know what actually is going on (maybe he's blindfolded or something, for example). You can create a sense of claustrophobia, for example, by using very short, blunt, sharp languages, sentence fragments, and pacing.

maestrowork · May 24, 2008

dpaterso said:
I'm just sayin', I half-expected to see folks posting some short samples in this thread, e.g. "Here are a couple of paragraphs from my latest fight scene," or 100 words of "Here's how I'd write two swordsmen fighting in a narrow alleyway/a forest clearing/a crowded tavern," etc. I can only squeeze so much goodness out of just talking about it.

-Derek

I'll bite.

A scene in a jungle when the protagonist can't see his attackers. It's in POV. Lots of short phrases and sentence fragments to create a sense of tension.

Remember, this is rough first draft crap:

The trees and bushes swooped past him, branches and vines brushing and scraping his arms and face. Must get back. Back to the clearing. Back to the Tourer. Back to the house.

He ran up an incline and off in the distance, the small gaps between the trees seemed to welcome him. An engine grunted not far ahead. Almost there. He ran faster.

POW.

The sound exploded in his ears and stopped him in his track. He dug his feet on the soft soil, twisted his torso around.

Just him and the trees. The dying echo of the gunshot.

He took a step off the trail and hid behind a fat oak. Not here. He glanced around him. No sign of Juen. He could not even remember hearing his brother running behind him. He took his rifle and held it close, slipped a finger in the trigger.

He peered out again. This time, two gray shapes appeared not far away among the thick undergrowth. He held his breath, lifted his rifle and pressed it against his ribs.

Then nothing. The figures had disappeared.

POW.

The tree trunk next to his head scattered, sending pieces of bark flying, shaking and knocking him on the ground. He rolled and skidded across the mossy turf, shoving his body into a small gap between two vine-covered logs.

He peered out again. Where are the bastards? He slipped through the thick bushes. He unbuckled the hoister in his belt, took out his hunter’s knife, clamped down on it with his jaw. Realizing that the thickets would limit his movement, he crouched and took a few small steps back, edging up a grade toward an open space between a few large trees nearby. He needed a clear line of sight.

dpaterso · May 25, 2008

Ah Ray, but I was hoping for a fight scene, and so I was.

From me, a quick excerpt from SWORD OF DOOM, a Celtic fantasy adventure. No comments necessary, I'm just offering an example of how I tend to write up-close-and-personal fight scenes. Our hero Finn Connor is caught with his pants down by ex-friend turned bounty hunter Halick O'Mearn and his two henchmen:

"Aren't you curious how I intend to defeat all three of you?" Connor said.

O'Mearn's grin broadened. "Big talk, for a man who doesn't even have a sword in his hand."

Connor tapped the side of his head.

"I don't need a sword, when I have this," he said, and on the last word he sprinted toward Dermo, arms and legs pumping. Dermo's eyes widened in surprise, then a smile settled upon his lips. As Dermo launched his spear, Connor threw himself down. The shaft glanced painfully off his shoulder but the spearhead didn't break skin or shatter bone, Daras be praised. Dermo's sword was only half-clear of its scabbard when Connor's head smashed into the big spearman's nose. Dermo staggered and fell backward into the bushes from which he'd emerged, clutching his bleeding face with both hands.

O'Mearn and Padrig were running for all they were worth, swords twirling about their heads. Padrig, younger and more foolish, beat his cousin by several heartbeats. Connor drew Dermo's sword clear of its scabbard and spun fast, countering Padrig's downward swing which would have split his head open. He continued the spin, rolling his hip and shoulder so that Padrig went flying over him and into the bushes. Padrig disappeared with a despondent wail, lost among the prickly thorns. Only his boots were visible, kicking at the sky.

Seeing this, O'Mearn slid to a stop and regarded Connor with considerably more caution than before. Now they both had swords, and O'Mearn was one man instead of three.

"Any time you're ready, Halick," Connor said, scoring little circles in the air with the point of Dermo's sword. "Let's get this over and done with."

"Ah, now," O'Mearn said, "but I sense a reversal of fortunes in the wind, so I do."

-Derek

Rowdymama · May 26, 2008

I haven't read all the posts so I don't know if this has been mentioned before, but for Pete's sweet sake, show that the blows or strikes or whatever, have an effect. In some action scenes - especially in movies - the hero takes a direct, hard hit, falls down, gets up again and resumes the fight. That kind of thing will totally wreck the scene, and along with it, the book.

Also: Where's the blood? The grunting, yelling, cursing? What's the dominant smell in the scene? What does an opponent's fist feel like when it meets your nose? Does the Sixth Sense - balance - have any influence in the fight?

Get some sensory information in there, to put the reader in the scene. It's the difference between words and live action.

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