Details: how much is necessary and how much is annoying?

I agree with Maryn in that it can become tedious and would turn the reader right off, unless...

My WIP is full of details related to the MC and the environment he interacts with. The reason being is that the world he inhabits forms an integral part of the plot(s). For instance, the trees (colour, number of leaves and the bird housed within), the floorboards (when and how they creak), the walls (the cracks that appear and the damp that is setting in). So put in details only if they serve a purpose, obviously mine is to create an atmosphere and as it is in 1st person it reflects the MCs world-view and thought processes thus adding to his character.

Xiph - I think what you may be talking about is the peculiarities of a characers personality. The idiosyncracies - the things that THEY do which you can instantly recognise them. For example,

She always bites her lips after finishing a sentence,
Or when concentrating, writing in her diary, her lips are always slightly parted and move as if mouthing the words.
Or he hung the towel on the railing, making sure that it was neat and tidy as usual.

This gives your character something that readers can identify themselves with, so details such as these are good when handled with care and not thrown about frivolously. It also can be used to signify mood, presence or as good humor.

Details are awesome but only when the story requires it and not for the sake of boosting your word count or to show how 'in tune' with yourself you are.

Have fun friend,

I don't read a story to see how someone brush their teeth and use the toilet.

Unless something interesting happens while they brush their teeth and use the toilet.

Does it advance the plot? Develop the characters? Or strengthen the themes?

She always bites her lips after finishing a sentence,
Or when concentrating, writing in her diary, her lips are always slightly parted and move as if mouthing the words.
Or he hung the towel on the railing, making sure that it was neat and tidy as usual.

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Tell us once and get on with the story. Don't have her bite her lips after every dialogue. Don't tell us how he hangs the towel every single time he has to use the bathroom.

dpaterso said:

I dare say I might be interested in a character who cleans the toilet bowl with his toothbrush, then brushes his teeth. That might be a way to show he's had military training.

-Derek

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...or some pretty serious self-loathing issues.

Georges Perec wrote bizarrely detailed fiction, and he was amazing. But I don't think most people can pull it off.

Four types of detail strengthen a story, because they strengthen the basic constituents of the work:

--Details that illustrate character
--Details that advance plot
--Details that show the setting in a way that makes it different from other similar places, that make it vivid and interesting
--Details that have a subtle metaphoric or symbolic effect, that contribute to theme

For example:

Character: Alli couldn't just clip her fingernails and toss them in the trash. She had to line them up, smallest to largest, and inspect them, outer curve, inner curve, as if every tiny irregularity told her something about the heart-deep workings of her body.

Plot: On the mantlepiece sat a pair of china dogs with garish china flowers in their mouths. Something glinted in the pale shadow of the dog on the left. I took a closer look. The glint came from a silver derringer with an ebony handle. [Now that derringer better get used at some point, perhaps to take out the china dogs.]

Setting: Everything in the bathroom that could be purple was purple: tiles, wall paint, the throw carpet, the curtains, the towels, the toothbrushes, the little guest soaps, which were shaped like bunches of grapes. Even the sink and tub had been refinished to a pale lilac. In fact, the only nonpurple things were the mirror glass and the gold faucets. [This could also be contributing to the character of the bathroom owner.]

Theme: In one story I'm working on, the fragility of life is a theme, and this story features an artist terrified of loss who restores historic stained glass windows. Many details in this story naturally touch on glass, whole or broken or under conservation. I hope the glass details add up to a sort of giant, pervasive metaphor.

I have character who is somewhat bulimic. When nervous, this character will do the old toothbrush to the tonsils bit. It is certainly not what the story is about, this is just the character. I have also on occasion had someone run into the bushes to drain the lizard and got in descriptions the equivalent of "the pleasures of a good piss."
Stephan King did it all the time-- he had some great "pissing" scenes, and he's not afraid of blood, bile, boils. I think it also depends on the "world" you have created. In mine, things are kind of naturalistic. People are sweaty and they need to bush their teeth and they would dearly love to run into a bathroom and take care of their personal needs, and stand there angry at the world because they must give a speech instead. They wash their underwear in a sink, even if they make plenty of money, and step in dog doo, someone saves a dog from the pound and it reciprocates by promptly marking all surfaces in the house. I's not meant to be comedy, it is somewhat Ironic ---

maestrowork said:

Tell us once and get on with the story. Don't have her bite her lips after every dialogue. Don't tell us how he hangs the towel every single time he has to use the bathroom.

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Perhaps, maestro my friend, it is advisable to say it once. However, say that you know she bites her lips every time she gets nervous. If you show a scene when she is biting her lip that would imply that she is nervous or anxious about something, thus there is showing and no telling and the reader is able to make the connection. It is neither to convoluted nor too indirect if used moderately and in relation to both character and context it can have a remarkable effect.

The golden rule is to use everything you think is necessary and then to sit back, read, see, feel what works best for that particular novel you are writing. That is why we edit and who knows what inspiration you may come up with that enhances your story beyond all your expectations.

If detail is necessary than go for it, but just because some people have a dislike for detail does not mean that the practice is devoid of any literary value whatsoever. Memoirs of a Geisha is full of intricate details, however it works well because it fits the story and of course the target audience.

The problem here is in divorcing personal preferences from what the story necessitates in order to make it intriguing.


All the best and thank you for accentuating the point,

Sounds like you might be detail-oriented. I am, too, and I've found that while it's a plus, it's also a liability because of the tendancy to add too much detail that doesn't move the story forward.

Start by asking yourself if the detail is important to the story and the characters. If necessary, focus on a particular detail and ask yourself if the really needs to know this. For example, they don't need to know the angle of the character's arm as he reaches for something on the table (that was in a chapter I critted). It's like empty calories; they pad the book, but don't contribute anything to the story itself or the characters.

But if your setting is important, calling a tree an oak instead or a bush a rhododendrin would add flavor to the story--but not extra words. That's where being detail-oriented is a big strength. I did a book with a lot of details like that sprinkled throughout; it really wasn't that much, but it was the right kind of detail that made people feel the setting.

Likewise, you can add extra details specifically to highlight something important. In something I critted, the writer mentioned the color of pretty much anything that appeared on the page. It smothered the one detail that was important, a delivery van's arrival. If she'd left color off everything else but mentioned the color of the van, it would have been a subtle flag that something was up.

Think this one is from Evan Marshall's Marshall Plan for Novel Writing: If it's something the reader is familiar with in every day life, you probably don't need the details about it. If a character is in a hospital room, it's probably not important to describe the room in great detail--we all know what one looks like. That leaves a place to mention the details that would be important.

I think, though, that you should be careful not to cut so much detail that it takes the heart out of the story. Just think about what the reader needs to know and what adds flavor to the story.

xiph said:

I have this tendency to ask a lot of irrelevant questions when I see a sentence like "X wakes up, brushes his teeth, and takes a shower." For example, I'd wonder if the person uses the toilet first, what color his toothbrush is, and where in the bathroom does he hang his towel. Among other things.

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Normally, I'd find the example sentance something I wouldn't want to see in a story, not because it shows no detail, but because it's too mundane, unless the next sentance has someone re-enact the famous scene from Psycho. They're ordinary happenings on their own in an ordinary, boring day, and it's best to skip right to the point where X has already headed off to work and gets the first clue that Y in the next cubicle is really a werewolf.

As others have noted, it's best if these events reveal character, set the mood, or advance the plot. The waking up, showering, and toothbrushing would ordinarily not do this. So if you're even putting them in, the details need to show something about the character, plot, or mood. Perhaps X is trying to impress her new boss and spends far more time grooming than usual, and the showering conveys this anxiety. Or X woke up and his first thought was, "How did I get up on the roof, and where's my shirt?" Or as X goes about his morning routine, little things about the bathroom and bedroom seem out of place and things seem a little less and less right until X opens the master bedroom door and realizes that he's been abducted by aliens who have tried to create a replica of his apartment and didn't quite get it right. The details shouldn't be mere window dressing.

If you need the details to make the character come alive, write down the answers, but don't bring them into the story until you know they interest the reader. Often a posession in and of itself may not say all that much about a character, but the process of how the character decided to acquire the posession might say a lot.

For example, suppose you decide that X owns a motorcycle. And X doesn't just own any motorcycle. He owns a 2004 Suzuki GSX-R 1300 Hayabusa with a custom metal flake black paint job, chrome plated billet wheels, the speed limiter removed, an extended swing arm, Corbin seat, and Yoshimura pipes. To go with this, he's bought a Dainesse leather suit, Alpinestars boots, Held gloves, and an Arai helmet painted to match the bike. That's a lot of detail. But what does that say about X? Other than that he's got a lot of money he can spend on this, not much on its own. A better question is why he owns this bike, what X was thinking when he bought it.

For those of you not into motorcycles, the bike I've described is a sport bike with around 160 to 180 horsepower that has been modified either for show or for drag racing. That kind of power can be quick in a compact car, and in a bike it's not easy to control at all. It would take a very experienced rider to use this to anything near its potential in anything but a straight line, and a pretty good one to use it to its fullest in a straight line. One of the better ways to describe such a machine is a bit full of adverbs: "The problem with this bike is that it will immediately do exactly what you accidentally tell it to do." I can't take credit for that line as it's one that's been passed around a lot on biker forums and nobody knows where it came from.

Perhaps X simply has years of motorcycle experience and wanted something sporty that was still reasonably comfortable for long distance rides. Which would, well, sound like the reason the Incredibly Competant Man of Action stock character might give. But if X fits that stereotype, he might as well have a bike that goes with it.

Or perhaps X had never ridden on a motorcycle before, heard some friends talking about how the Hayabusa was the ultimate bike, and the next day he got a learner's permit, then bought the 'Busa the very next day. An action like this would show that he's reckless, doesn't consider his own personal safety all that much, is easily swayed by his friends, and also pretty reckless with his money. The fact that his friends didn't try to stop him from buying an obvious death machine also says a lot about their character.

The details themselves may not be nearly as interesting as why these details are there. Even if you don't show the story behind it, keep it in mind and remember what your character is capable of. But something like the color of the toothbrush probably doesn't have the same kind of story behind it, or if you can pull off such a story, it might deserve its own scene to itself.

Seif said:

However, say that you know she bites her lips every time she gets nervous. If you show a scene when she is biting her lip that would imply that she is nervous or anxious about something, thus there is showing and no telling and the reader is able to make the connection. It is neither to convoluted nor too indirect if used moderately and in relation to both character and context it can have a remarkable effect.

The golden rule is to use everything you think is necessary and then to sit back, read, see, feel what works best for that particular novel you are writing.

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Of course the golden rule is: If it works. My point is, if you "show" her biting her lips every time she speaks, then it becomes really tedious. And how many times do you need to show us that she bites her lips before we get it, or get tired of it, whichever comes first? Or do you keep doing it since, well, she does it every time she speaks -- if you stop mentioning it later on it wouldn't make sense, would it?

Traits like that is probably better "told" (or a mix of show and tell) instead of just repeating it so the readers will get it -- oh, it's her personality quarks. "Harold counted his brushstrokes every morning while brushing his teeth" -- now that's a good "tell." (From Stranger Than Fiction) Of course, if you can do it without being repetitive and tedious, go for it.

Details can be wonderful, but repetitions can get old really fast. Again, do what works best. In first draft, you can do anything you want. Just write.

Is brushing his teeth etc just filler taking up word count or are the tedious tasks actually part of adding to the drama? If the former, omit the dreck.

Xiph, have you shown your writing to anyone or maybe posted in Share Your Work? Has anyone told you the details don't work, or are you just afraid they might not?

If the details are important to you and you can't flesh out your characters without them, then put them in. Maybe you're someone who naturally writes a lot of detail, and maybe it works for you. As for transitioning back into the story, pick a detail that leads into the story and there you go.

Nobody can tell you what your voice is. Don't second-guess yourself until a good number of people have told you your writing isn't working for them because of the level of detail.

I've just given up on a book where every time the protagonist gets in his car, the author insists on describing everything. By that I mean opening the car door, sitting down, putting the keys in the ignition, putting the car into neutral, starting the engine etc. The stuff that we do without thinking about it every time we get in the car. That's way too much description and it got annoying really fast.

For myself, I treat my first draft as my info dump and everything goes in there. When I'm revising it, I basically cut and paste the stuff that I think is irrelevant into another document so that I've still got the info there should I need it later on. Reality is, you're going to know far more about your characters and plot than you can possibly show in the text, so...

If the detail is so much that it brings the sory to a stand still, it's too much detail, IMO. Everyone else has pretty much covered that, so I'm moving to this:

xiph said:

I heard once that you're supposed to assume your readers are idiots if you want to write a good story, but am I supposed to assume they're complete idiots who don't even know how to breathe?

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I don't know who gave you this little tidbit, but that's about the biggest load I've ever heard. I'm not getting down on you--you didn't say it, you heard it--but if I were you, I'd disregard it really quick. The second a writer a treats me like an idiot, I toss the book across the room. Readers are not stupid, and to treat them as such is insulting. And it's a good way to make sure they never read anything else that you write.

maestrowork said:

Of course the golden rule is: If it works. My point is, if you "show" her biting her lips every time she speaks, then it becomes really tedious. And how many times do you need to show us that she bites her lips before we get it, or get tired of it, whichever comes first? Or do you keep doing it since, well, she does it every time she speaks -- if you stop mentioning it later on it wouldn't make sense, would it?

This is true, but people are not quirky all the time. What if she bites her lips depending on the degree of her anxiety? You can manipulate language however you like and play with words. Remember that the subconscious mind picks up certain words that are repeated but can be written in such a manner that you barely notice it. This takes skill that can only be acquired through practice. My MC drinks green tea in a saucer - an Asian thing - which I repeat but I don't write it blatantly, rather suggestively, subtlety and I use it in a sentence or in between sentences that do not detract away from what I am trying to achieve overall. The intended effect is to create a familiarity with the character so that when he undergoes a transformation it is more apparent. Yet I attempt to do this in a subtle manner so as to not overwhelm the reader.

I had a problem when you said say it 'once' but I never said say it 'all the time when x does y'. Saying it 'once' can limit what are you are trying to do and in the preliminary stages why would you want to do that? As you have said when you edit the work you can see if it flows.

Traits like that is probably better "told" (or a mix of show and tell) instead of just repeating it so the readers will get it -- oh, it's her personality quarks. "Harold counted his brushstrokes every morning while brushing his teeth" -- now that's a good "tell." (From Stranger Than Fiction) Of course, if you can do it without being repetitive and tedious, go for it.

That is what YOU think is a good tell which can easily be translated into a good show. In fact it is a mixture of the two depending upon were you draw the line. As you said 'go for it' if it is not repetitive or tedious, but it depends on the effect that you are trying to create. Repetition is an integral part of poetry because it enhances meaning etc. This is the case with prose (Maps for Lost Lovers) uses repetition to enhance the setting and the story and it is neither tedious nor boring, rather sublime and beautiful. And the personality quirks such as in Monica Ali's Bricklane, shows the MC Nazneen reluctantly picking the corns from of her husbands feet. An act she repeats regularly. Through her reluctance we familiarise ourselves with ehr mundane lifestyle and devotion to her husband. It is a very powerful tool when used 'correctly ' (you be the judge of that). Another character always chews his lips before he talks - again and again. And it achieves a comedic effect but is also foreboding as you know that he is going to come up with something terrible.

You can repeat the actions, but not the words - or vice versa. Think of the many ways that people describe the sunset, it is the same action but described in many different ways and from many different POVs.

Details can be wonderful, but repetitions can get old really fast. Again, do what works best. In first draft, you can do anything you want. Just write.

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Or repetitions can be wonderful, but details can get old really fast. It depends as much on the writer as it does on what and how it is written.

(I am so terrible at spelling)

I almost always put too many details into a first draft. They let me know, and even when I edit them out, I still know and it shows. (It also shows when I don't know, so I'm okay with this process).

My rule of thumb when I write: If I want/need it there, in it goes. It's just words.

My rule of thumb when I edit: If it serves the story, it stays. If it does not, I grin maniacally and hit delete. Which is to say, any detail that isn't necessary is annoying, and any detail that makes the reader go "well, duh" is annoying.

Something to watch out for: There are normally types of detail. For example, I give far too many action-details in first drafts (She turned, hunching a shoulder, and trudged slowly from the room). But I do not give enough setting details in early drafts, and need to work to ground my story in place and time at the same time that I'm killing actions that are obvious.

Reading out loud is a great way to see what's over-obvious or distracting.

Shweta said:

Reading out loud is a great way to see what's over-obvious or distracting.

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I have often heard this advice but seldom practice it out of fear that my neighbours may call the police (writing a conspiracy thriller about Islamic terrorists)

Just out of interest, do you do the accents and use body language ala Bollywood <generic actor/actress> style.

Seif said:

I have often heard this advice but seldom practice it out of fear that my neighbours may call the police (writing a conspiracy thriller about Islamic terrorists)

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I often just whisper or mutter to myself. It's less about hearing, to me, and more about forming the words in my mouth. Clunky language feels bad. Or maybe mouthing the words makes me imagine how they sound, more than reading them does.

Just out of interest, do you do the accents and use body language ala Bollywood <generic actor/actress> style.

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Heh. Depends on what I'm reading and on the narrator's voice. To the extent that the story is "translated" into American English, I'll read it American. So I read most of my Indian stuff in my California accent - except for names or terminology, which I'll say more or less authentically.
However, I have a story written in dialectal Scottish English which I just canna read aloud
Because I used to speak (sort of) like that, and can't any more without it sounding fake to me, and I know that's how it should be read. So I couldn't read it without brushing up on my spoken Aberdonian.

xiph said:

I have this tendency to ask a lot of irrelevant questions when I see a sentence like "X wakes up, brushes his teeth, and takes a shower." For example, I'd wonder if the person uses the toilet first, what color his toothbrush is, and where in the bathroom does he hang his towel. Among other things.

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The cool thing is, as a reader if you are wondering about all these things and picturing these details as you read, your imagination is stimulated. IMO, that's way more rewarding as a reader than having it all laid out for you. Also, I don't know if this is true for you, but I find that I'm always more interested in the details of someone else's story when I'm stuck on something in my own WIP. It's the writer in me that I can't seem to escape from.

<snip>

xiph said:

I heard once that you're supposed to assume your readers are idiots if you want to write a good story, but am I supposed to assume they're complete idiots who don't even know how to breathe?

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I've heard the opposite, but I agree with Shweta: put 'em all in in your first draft! Go nuts and describe everything! Then when you're editing, try to discern which ones are neccessary for plot, characterization, etc.

And read tons and tons of novels. You'll be surprised at how effective the minimalist approach is once you've seen it done sucessfully. And regarding the idiot philosophy... I'm more apt to be excited about a novel when I feel like I just got a personal joke between me and the character and/or the author. I hate when I "get" something and a few sentences later, there's the author, spelling out the joke, or inference, or what have you.

Good luck with your writing. Lots of excellent advice here.

xiph said:

I heard once that you're supposed to assume your readers are idiots if you want to write a good story, but am I supposed to assume they're complete idiots who don't even know how to breathe?

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Actually, the advice probably was trying to say "Don't be too subtle" for important points or the reader is likely to miss it. There's a caveat though--not being subtle doesn't mean repeating something over and over again, which will make the reader feel like you're treating them like an idiot.

Unfortunately, that advice does lose a lot in translation. It's very easy to interpret it as repeating details over and over and over again so the reader doesn't miss them, and instead of being helpful, they become annoying. I'm working on a scene now where the characters are inside a very narrow tunnel. This is an important detail to the scene, given there's a fight that occurs in it later on, and the narrowness creates additional problems. I mention it three times, in three very different ways including the fight scene, but there's a little voice I keep hearing that says I haven't mentioned it enough. And I have to remind myself that the reader isn't going to miss it because each time I mentioned it, it wasn't subtle.

Subtle: They dropped down into the narrow tunnel (and never mentioning anything else about it).

Not subtle: The main character is instantly distrustful of a man who is very tall and big boned. The larger man volunteers to go into the tunnel with him, and the main character isn't about to have this guy at his back. He tells the man that he can't come because the tunnel's too narrow and low to accomodate him.

If I listened to the nagging voice about not mentioning it enough, I'd have variations of "the tunnel is narrow" on every page. So I limit it to a few mentions and make each one really count.

Seif said:

I have often heard this advice but seldom practice it out of fear that my neighbours may call the police (writing a conspiracy thriller about Islamic terrorists)

Just out of interest, do you do the accents and use body language ala Bollywood <generic actor/actress> style.

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Why not go to a park or beautiful outdoors location? I find that reading the work I have done recently is extremely helpful in my work. Reading it allows you to "hear" what does not make sense, or simply uncomfortable to say. At some point word choice becomes like poetry. If something "reads" well out-loud, it is often good writing. Reading to a sympathetic friend is even better, because you can see the reaction. If they don't understand what you are saying, then you can re-write it, or say it in a better way.

xiph said:

I have this tendency to ask a lot of irrelevant questions when I see a sentence like "X wakes up, brushes his teeth, and takes a shower." For example, I'd wonder if the person uses the toilet first, what color his toothbrush is, and where in the bathroom does he hang his towel. Among other things.

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I'm afraid I had a bit of fun with this one.
Martin hit the alarm - hard. He struggled out of bed, detangling the snarled sheets wound around his feet. The needles of water shooting from the showerhead did little to erase the thick cobwebs of sleep. He towelled off, dropped the towel on the floor and kept his eyes closed while he brushed his teeth. At least until his befuddled brain registered the fact this his mouth was burning and it wasn't Colgate he'd squeezed out onto his toothbrush.
Where was Martin last night or is he just lazy? What's on his toothbrush?This is pretty rough but if you pump up the description a bit it serves to get the character up and out of bed and through his morning ablutions without boring the reader. Well maybe what I've written is boring but it CAN be made interesting with a bit of thought.
Linnea