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Is It Frowned Upon? - Omniscient unlimited POV

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Quentin Nokov

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Omniscient point of view -- unlimited. Is this naturally frowned upon? Or is it alright as long as the transitions are clear enough? Because I've realized that is how my story is being written. Although I don't feel that I am head-hopping I've come face to face with Mr. Doubt.

Basically all I'm asking is if one is to go with the all-seeing all-knowing POV should each point of view have their own chapter? Example if I write out Sondra's complete thoughts about pizza should I keep the chapter to only her thoughts? So, David, three pages later [in the same chapter] can't be thinking about buying new shoes? Or because there is a gap between thoughts would it be okay? Then the question arises if it isn't can David think about buying new shoes in the next chapter with Sondra being completely thoughtless? I hope I make sense it's nearly midnight here xP

Or should you stay away from all-knowing all-seeing. I did some research on it and it looks like it's acceptable as long as you have mastered it. How do you master it?
 

nybx4life

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Yes, please do.
If you're going for the expert skill required omni view, you should show some transition of different character views.

Kinda like vantage point.


Like, in a previous WIP, I wrote each character with their own chapter. Funny thing is, for a character I wanted to show is a tad more important than everybody else, I ended up writing in first person, while the rest of the characters were in third.
 

kct webber

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The first thing I would say is that if you are a new writer you may want to look really hard at whether or not you want to leap to omni. Omni is hard--especially the longer you have to keep it up. Some people gravitate toward it and some people come by it more easily than others, but most don't.

Second, if you are only changing POV between breaks, you are probably not writing omni. You are writing limited. I write first person and third person close limited. In the third person stuff, I do switch viewpoints, but only after a break. Not necessarily a chapter break, but a break none the less. Just changing POV doesn't make it omni.

Is it frowned upon? I can't speak for everyone, but I don't like it. I don't like writing it and I seldom like reading it. There have been a few books that were written that way that I liked, but they were done masterfully and, as I said, that's hard to do. When it's done well, the reader won't really notice the changing POV--that's the goal. But it is not often accomplished. For me, at least.
 
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A. J. Luxton

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If you're talking about staying in one perspective for three pages and then changing, it's not actually omni unlimited.

Omni unlimited is like:

"As Sarah ate her hamburger, she watched Dave out of the corner of her eye. His smile made her loins do a spontaneous polka. Dave wasn't thinking about her at all, though. He was thinking about how he was going to conquer the world by releasing a swarm of mind-controlling nanites."

Switching perspectives would be more like:

"Sarah sat at the counter, eating her hamburger, watching Dave out of the corner of her eye. Such a cutie, that one. Always smiling so mysteriously, like he knew something nobody else did. He didn't look back at her, and though she polished off her lunch slowly to give him time to notice, he seemed oblivious. She stared into the remains of her hamburger on the plate for a minute before standing up and walking away...."

Paragraphs later:
"Dave idly wondered why that girl had been staring at him, but she didn't seem like a threat to his plans. He went over the schematic in his mind, then withdrew the Blackberry from his pocket and went over it again on the screen. He grinned at the perfection of his own nefarious design. His perfect nanite would breed, and breed, and populate the water system, and pass the blood-brain barrier effortlessly, passing his subtle signals through all of mankind so that no one would ever annoy him again. No more N'Sync songs on radios or stripes with polka-dots or petulant students, ever...."


Yeah, um, my brain is weird. Anyway, hope that illustrates. :D
 

Linda Adams

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Well, first there are a lot of books out today that are published in various forms of it. Done right, it's sometimes not even noticable. Until I started seriously considering it for my own WIP, I didn't realize how many books I had on my shelf that were in it.

But you should understand the reasons why you're choosing omni. A lot of people want to gravitate to it because they want to "headhop." But there are other aspects to it that can make it extremely challenging to write. I chose it from mine after trying third and first and realizing neither worked for the kind of complex story I was doing. I was quite literally having to do info dump after info dump after info dump to get the story going, and I was having to explain it simply because it was the viewpoint character. I ran into a scene where it was important to show both sides of an issue between two characters. Showing from only the main character's perspective made it too one-sided. The other big advantage it gave me was for fight scenes. I tend to have multiple heroes/heroines, and they're together during the fight scenes.

Omni allows you to dip into the heads of the characters for a paragraph or so and skim their thoughts. This sounds like a great thing until you study how hard it is. Do it wrong, and you head hop. Do it right, and no one notices you did it. Read some books in omni, and you'll generally see a tranisition before it dips. If it's dipping from person to person, the narrative will transition back up to the narrator first and then dip into the next character. If it's from the narrative, it might use a subject change in the previous paragraph to ease the reader it. The transitions are subtle, but they're there.

Omni can also make a story more distant, though that may be what you want for a particular story. Again, for mine, it actually is important to the story. But I have read an unpublished piece where the author was so distant he actually pushed readers away. The distance is also difficult to write.

The best thing to do to master it is to read books in omni and study how the authors did it. When I wrote a scene in omni as a test, I literally grabbed a book off the shelf that I knew was in the viewpoint and studied how the author did it.
 

Andrew Jameson

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Omniscient point of view -- unlimited. Is this naturally frowned upon? Or is it alright as long as the transitions are clear enough? Because I've realized that is how my story is being written. Although I don't feel that I am head-hopping I've come face to face with Mr. Doubt.
There's nothing wrong with an omniscient point of view when it's done well. However, in my opinion, it's more difficult to do well than a limited POV, and inexperienced writers who attempt it tend to wind up with a poorly-written limited head-hopping POV rather than a well-written omniscient.

Basically all I'm asking is if one is to go with the all-seeing all-knowing POV should each point of view have their own chapter? Example if I write out Sondra's complete thoughts about pizza should I keep the chapter to only her thoughts? So, David, three pages later [in the same chapter] can't be thinking about buying new shoes?
But this makes it seem that you're talking about third-person limited with different POV characters, rather than third-person omniscient. With third-person limited, it's expected that you insert a scene or chapter break when switching POV characters. You would typically *not* switch POV characters while they're in the same setting (although there are times when this works).

To be blunt, if you're confused about the difference between omniscient and limited with mulitiple POV characters, I would recommend sticking to limited POV. Others may have different opinions.
 

girlyswot

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Omniscient point of view -- unlimited. Is this naturally frowned upon? Or is it alright as long as the transitions are clear enough? Because I've realized that is how my story is being written. Although I don't feel that I am head-hopping I've come face to face with Mr. Doubt.

If you're really using omniscient, unlimited then there won't be transitions. It's not the same as head-hopping. It's more like imagining that you are God, watching all the little mortals going about there business, knowing exactly what they're doing and thinking and what will happen next and so on.

Basically all I'm asking is if one is to go with the all-seeing all-knowing POV should each point of view have their own chapter? Example if I write out Sondra's complete thoughts about pizza should I keep the chapter to only her thoughts? So, David, three pages later [in the same chapter] can't be thinking about buying new shoes? Or because there is a gap between thoughts would it be okay? Then the question arises if it isn't can David think about buying new shoes in the next chapter with Sondra being completely thoughtless? I hope I make sense it's nearly midnight here xP

If what you want is multiple POV's then you can make the transitions either at chapter breaks or within chapters so long as you are clear about when you are changing and why.

Or should you stay away from all-knowing all-seeing. I did some research on it and it looks like it's acceptable as long as you have mastered it. How do you master it?
Read Victorian novels.
 

IceCreamEmpress

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Terry Pratchett is the best person doing this right now, in my opinion.
 

Quentin Nokov

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Thank you all for your comments ^.^ With my writing it's important that there are multiple views I just need to practice writing clear transitions. I feel that they are clear enough I just have no way of knowing for sure.

Besides Terry Pratchett what other authors are there I could look into?
 

Phaeal

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In my opinion, the omniscient POV is not just a technique for hopping for head to head. It's the way to introduce a strong narrative voice which is not one of the characters on stage, but a narrator-character or narrator-author above, around and within the stage and the players. This form of narration allows for a lot of authorial comment on the action and encourages tangents and analyses which the reader won't resent as long as the narrator is appealing or interesting enough in herself -- just like the main characters in the work must be appealing or interesting.

The 19th century virtuosi of the omniscient seem to do it effortlessly. For superb examples, read Thackerey's Vanity Fair or Eliot's Middlemarch. Tolkien makes good use of a less "intrusive" omniscient POV in The Lord of the Rings -- while the author-narrator here has a sometimes wry, sometimes rapt voice, the narrator not so vivid a character in himself, like the Thackerey- and Eliot-narrators who are seldom far from the reader's ear in the other recommended books.

As far as I can tell from your description, you're actually writing in 3rd person limited/multiple viewpoint characters. The basic technique is indeed staying in one character's POV until a chapter or section break, then, as clearly and quickly as possible, switching to another character's POV.

Unless you need a author-narrator, and can take on the complicated task of creating one, there's no reason to go with "omniscient" rather than 3rd person limited/multiple viewpoint characters.
 
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Quentin Nokov

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Well, like this. Is this point of view jumping?

“A gypsy?” David exclaimed. Sondra cringed; it was the wrong thing to say. She couldn’t give away too much information about her past, or should she? Sondra stopped talking and stared away from David. Now that he interrupted her it would be a little while before she had an urge to talk again. She had to think more carefully. She had to decide if she should tell him or not; tell him everything about her.

Sondra’s mind wavered back and forth. She was confident about telling him before, what happened?


Sondra Cringed, Sondra stopped talking and stared away from David.

Are these going into different POV's or is it just the narrator's POV?

Hope it's alright I post that. If it's not just let me know.
 

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Quentin Nokov

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Example:

"A gyspy?" David exclaimed.

Sondra cringed; it was the wrong thing to say etc...

Hope this helped.

Okay so if I do something like that I should basically create a new paragraph? What just struck me is couldn't "A gypsy?" . . . be in Sondra's point of view since she hears him? Or does that not apply? I'm trying to get a hang on this! I just never thought POVs would be this complicated and hard for me to understand.

You might try here at the Washington Post's first chapter list:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/style/books/chapterone.htm

Thank you very much. I'll look through this. I've been trying to find books that suit my interest but I tell ya, I'm a very picky reader. It's so hard for me to find something I can sit through.
 
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A. J. Luxton

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In anyone's POV, other people can speak. (Well, unless your POV character is deaf and not a lip-reader. In which case other people can still speak sign language, but this suddenly strikes me as today's random act of non sequitur.)

Imagine the viewpoint character is you. You're in a coffee shop. You can see, hear, feel, taste and smell the stuff going on around you. This includes random conversations, people talking to you directly -- any words you hear in a language you understand -- coffee aromas, music on the stereo, the cute barista in the low-cut T-shirt with the tattoos on her neck, the burnt flavor of the pastry that you're not complaining about because the cute barista served it to you...

"Gosh, my boyfriend is such a jerk. I'll give it another week and then we're quitsville," the barista says into her cell phone while the line gets longer and more irate. Viewpoint's heart leaps and he/she considers his/her chances.

If you're a telepath in a coffee shop, you can hear other people's thoughts. Otherwise, you can't.

(Deanna Troi: "I sense that they're all really hyper, Captain.")


...Regarding Pratchett, I think of authorial omni being different from, for lack of a better word, anonymous omni. Authorial is where you have lines you can imagine are read by a guy in a hat coming onto the stage: "What Viewpoint didn't know was that the barista left her boyfriend every week and re-united with him the next week. Alas, Viewpoint had the chances of a wet chinchilla on an interstate highway, and could not change this by eating all the burnt pastries in the world..."

Edit: Phaeal had some excellent explanations of it in this thread:
http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/showthread.php?t=101723
 
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Andrew Jameson

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Okay so if I do something like that I should basically create a new paragraph? What just struck me is couldn't "A gypsy?" . . . be in Sondra's point of view since she hears him? Or does that not apply? I'm trying to get a hang on this! I just never thought POVs would be this complicated and hard for me to understand.
They're not really that complicated, but you're confusing yourself by misapplying terminology. Let me basically repeat what some of the other posters have said.

Let's stick with the coffeehouse scene, since that seems to be popular. Imagine that you, Quentin, are in a coffeehouse. Anything you experience is from your POV. That means anything you see or hear (or touch or smell or taste) can be reported from Quentin's POV. In addition, anything you think or feel is by definition from your (Quentin's) POV.

Now, if I (Andrew) am also in the same coffeehouse, some things could, alternatively, be reported from my POV. Anything that I see or hear or touch or smell or taste can be reported from Andrew's POV; anything I think or feel is by definition from my POV.

To stay in one POV, restrict yourself to those things THAT CHARACTER can see or hear or touch or smell or taste or think or feel, and NOTHING ELSE.

So. How about a few examples? Let's say Quentin and Andrew are sitting in a coffeehouse.
The coffeehouse was dim and dingy, with only a few customers.
This description is something anyone could see. Either Quentin or Andrew could have seen it, so this sentence could be from either POV.

The cappucino machine hissed in the background.
This is something one would hear in the background. Again, either Quentin or Andrew could have heard it, so it could be reported from either POV.

"What size?" the barista asked.
This is dialogue, but presumably anyone could have heard it. Yet again, it could be reported from either POV.

"Large and black," Quentin said. "A real man's coffee."
Again dialogue, but again anyone could have heard it. Even though Quentin said it, either character could hear it, so once again it could be reported from either POV.

"That'll give you back hair, you know," Andrew said.
Same as before. This time it's Andrew's dialogue, but either character could hear it, so it could be reported from either Quentin's POV or Andrew's POV. Note that, so far, there is NO CLUE as to whose POV this scene is told from. The entire scene up to here could be from Quentin's POV, Andrew's POV, or even from a third, as yet unmentioned, person's POV (but let's ignore that possibility). The reader doesn't yet know.

Andrew wondered if Quentin would be dumb enough to believe him.
Here, at last, is something that's clearly from Andrew's POV. Quentin wouldn't know what Andrew is thinking, so this is certainly from Andrew's POV.

"You're full of crap," Quentin said. Andrew usually was, he knew.
Here's a mix. The dialogue *could* be from either character's POV, but the thought (Andrew usually was, he knew.) is clearly from Quentin's POV. That makes this pair of sentences in Quentin's POV (and I'm head-hopping, by the way).

Mary, at the next table over, arose and tiptoed to stand behind Quentin.
Here's a new twist. Mary is being quiet and standing behind Quentin, so, presumably, Quentin CAN'T see or hear her. Since this action takes place without Quentin noticing, it CAN'T be in Quentin's POV, so it must be in Andrew's POV.

She threw her hands over Quentin's eyes and asked, "Guess who?" Her hands were calloused and smelled of lotion.
This one's kind of subtle. This first sentence could be in anyone's POV, but look at the second sentence. Because Mary's hands are on Quentin's face, he can FEEL the callouses and SMELL the lotion. Andrew might know about the callouses and the lotion, but he would be unlikely to notice them at this time, while Quentin, who is experiencing them, WOULD be noticing them. That makes this Quentin's POV.

"Mary!" Quentin stood up and hugged her. A crumb of Danish hung unnoticed from his lip.
An interesting twist here. Quentin doesn't notice the crumb of Danish, right? So this can't be from his POV; it must be from Andrew's.

Quentin was glad to see her.
Something Quentin feels, and so must be from his POV. Contrast that to:

Quentin smiled, looking happy to see Mary.
Subtle, but remember that you can't see your own face. Either Quentin or Andrew would know if Quentin smiled, but Quentin wouldn't think that he himself "looked happy." Only Andrew could make that judgment, so this must be from his POV.
And I'll stop there. Note that I'm head-hopping back and forth, which is bad practice. But I *could* rewrite this scene to keep in one character's POV at all times, just by tweaking the parts that are in the *other* character's POV.

And one final thing: It's standard practice to seperate character actions into seperate paragraphs, regardless of POV choice, to make it clear to the reader who is doing what. Frex,
"More coffee?" Quentin asked. Andrew had had enough, and shook his head. "Suit yourself," Quentin said, and poured himself a warmup. He'll be peeing all day, Andrew thought. He sipped his own coffee. Ought to switch to decaf.
This is obviously from Andrew's POV, but the dialogue and actions are all mixed into one paragraph. For clarity, rewrite to seperate character actions:
"More coffee?" Quentin asked.

Andrew had had enough, and shook his head.

"Suit yourself," Quentin said, and poured himself a warmup.

He'll be peeing all day, Andrew thought. He sipped his own coffee. Ought to switch to decaf.
 
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Phaeal

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To simplify:

If you want to stay in a single POV for a chapter or section, simply don't put anything in that chapter or section that the POV character cannot:

See
Hear
Smell
Taste
Touch
Think/Know
Feel (emotionally)

That'll do it.
 

Quentin Nokov

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Andrew, wow, that's the best example of head hopping I've seen. Know I completely understand it. I know what to look out for now.

Phaeal, I like how you simplified it so that it goes hand in hand with Andrew's post. This really clarified everything up for me.

I've been reading things on the internet about it but they don't give good enough examples like that. Reading many different head-hopping POV articles ending up twisting my brain in a not they were so confusing all together.

Thank you very much all of your guys for your help. This was very useful. I'm going to have to fix all 36 six chapters prior to the ones I'm writing now . . . but I have to revise them anyway, Lol. Again thank you very much ^.^
 

Andrew Jameson

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Thank you very much all of your guys for your help. This was very useful. I'm going to have to fix all 36 six chapters prior to the ones I'm writing now . . . but I have to revise them anyway, Lol. Again thank you very much ^.^
A couple additional things. First, remember it's completely OK to change POV characters when you change scenes. So no matter who your POV character is in the coffeehouse, when you jump to the next scene in the car, you can (but don't have to) change POV characters.

Second, when you have multiple POV characters in your book, it's usually a good idea to let your reader know early on WHO, exactly, is the POV character in each scene. Note that I DIDN'T do that in the coffeehouses scene above, but I should have.

So let me take this headhopping scene:
The coffeehouse was dim and dingy, with only a few customers.

The cappucino machine hissed in the background.

"What size?" the barista asked.

"Large and black," Quentin said. "A real man's coffee."

"That'll give you back hair, you know," Andrew said.

Andrew wondered if Quentin would be dumb enough to believe him.

"You're full of crap," Quentin said. Andrew usually was, he knew.

Mary, at the next table over, arose and tiptoed to stand behind Quentin.

She threw her hands over Quentin's eyes and asked, "Guess who?" Her hands were calloused and smelled of lotion.

"Mary!" Quentin stood up and hugged her. A crumb of Danish hung unnoticed from his lip.

Quentin was glad to see her.

Quentin smiled, looking happy to see Mary.
And rewrite it to be in my (Andrew's) POV:
The coffeehouse was dim and dingy, with only a few customers. Not his favorite place, Andrew thought. [I added the second sentence here to establish the POV early on.]

The cappucino machine hissed in the background.

"What size?" the barista asked.

"Large and black," Quentin said. "A real man's coffee."

"That'll give you back hair, you know," Andrew said.

He wondered if Quentin would be dumb enough to believe him.

"You're full of crap," Quentin said. [I deleted Quentin's thought here, because Andrew wouldn't know that.]He rolled his eyes and sipped his coffee with emphasis. [And added this action to convey the same thought.]

Mary, at the next table over, arose and tiptoed to stand behind Quentin. [Andrew can see her, so this is OK.] She winked at Andrew.

Strange girl. Andrew wondered what Quentin saw in her. [I added this just to emphasize we're in Andrew's POV. Naturally, you wouldn't throw something like this in unless it shows characterization or advances the plot, but being firmly in Andrew's POV allows me to add Andrew's thought here, which will presumably be important later in the story.]

Mary threw her hands over Quentin's eyes and asked, "Guess who?" [Again deleting something that isn't naturally in Andrew's POV.]

"Mary!" Quentin stood up and hugged her. A crumb of Danish hung unnoticed from his lip. [I scrapped a sentence from Quentin's POV and merged these two parts, because they both describe Quentin's actions.] Quentin smiled, looking happy to see Mary.
Rewriting from Quentin's POV is left as an exercise.
 

Dave.C.Robinson

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Here's a nice simple take on it all: If the reader notices how you're doing something you're doing it wrong. If people don't notice you're in omni it's the right POV, if it's glaringly obvious you're in omni it's wrong.

Write so the reader notices what's written, not the writing.
 

privatepook

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Typically the only writers I've ever seen really try this are previous blockbuster bestsellers like Stephen King. King can write pretty much however he wants, for better or worse, and it will get published in some form.

From what I understand, a new unpublished writer will have a very hard time getting an agent to spend time with an omni-view because a new writer rarely gets it right. So many agents post in their blogs about the importance of maintaining a single POV within a given scene.
 

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I did a lot of headhopping at first as well, but now have it down to usually my MC POV, and my supporting character, and the switch is usually a chapter or in the middle of a chapter with a # sign.
 

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To simplify:

If you want to stay in a single POV for a chapter or section, simply don't put anything in that chapter or section that the POV character cannot:

See
Hear
Smell
Taste
Touch
Think/Know
Feel (emotionally)

That'll do it.

Okay, but... let's say the following is in Jane's POV.

Jane sat up and blurted out, "Tom came to see me last night."
Surprised, Bob stared at her and waited for her to go on.

Is this head-hopping, or is it clear that Jane can see that Bob is surprised. Or do I have to say "Bob seemed surprised as..."
 

maestrowork

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Okay, but... let's say the following is in Jane's POV.

Jane sat up and blurted out, "Tom came to see me last night."
Surprised, Bob stared at her and waited for her to go on.

Is this head-hopping, or is it clear that Jane can see that Bob is surprised. Or do I have to say "Bob seemed surprised as..."

I think that's a case of unclear writing.

At first glance, we may think Jane deduced that Bob was surprised, and she deduced that he was waiting for her. So it could still be in Jane's POV. But the pundits would definitely argue that such a "telling" word could only be used on the POV character. We're not say "Bob looked surprised" -- we're directly referring to Bob's mental/emotional state. That, technically, is a POV violation. In that case, it's better to:

a) spell out the inference from the character's POV:
"Bob looked surprised. He stared at her and waited for her to go on."

b) show, not tell:
"Bob raised his brow and dropped his jaw. He stared at her and did not say a thing. There was an awkward silence between them. She finally said, 'OK, here's what happened.' "
 

Andrew Jameson

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Okay, but... let's say the following is in Jane's POV.

Jane sat up and blurted out, "Tom came to see me last night."
Surprised, Bob stared at her and waited for her to go on.

Is this head-hopping, or is it clear that Jane can see that Bob is surprised. Or do I have to say "Bob seemed surprised as..."
Pretty much what maestro said, but let me add one thing:

If you're in Jane's POV, Bob's emotional state (the "surprise") is an inference on her part, right? But how does Jane know Bob is surprised? Maybe Bob already knew Tom was over last night, and he's just acting surprised because he doesn't want to admit he's been peeping in Jane's windows every night. Or maybe Jane is misinterpreting Bob's anger as surprise because she feels so guilty. Or maybe Bob is actually a robotic alien who's doing the best he can to mimic human emotions.

All Jane can do is infer that Bob looks surprised, based on his physical reactions. Maybe you show those reactions and let the reader make his/her own inference, or maybe you report the inference from Jane's POV (these are maestro's options).

It might not really matter in this particular scene whether Bob is truly surprised or is just play-acting, but in some scenes it does matter, so it's probably a good habit to avoid stating inferences ("Bob seemed surprised" or "Bob looked surprised") as fact ("Bob was surprised")
 
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