Research Rant - Do It Your DAMN' Self

Smiling Ted · Apr 19, 2008

So I was cruising the forum, looking at the research threads, when I spotted one that was titled- Well, let's not say what is was titled, because I'm about to say some uncomplimentary things, and I don't want to single out a particular person. Let's call it "Queries about Medieval Scandinavia."

I thought Hey, I'm a big fan of lutefisjk and Leif Ericsson, why don't I jet in and see if I can help? The questions were things like "what was the basic Viking marriage?" and "What did Viking homes look like?" and I had just Googled the words "marriage," and "Viking," when I suddenly asked myself What am I doing!?

Why on Earth was I doing ACTUAL RESEARCH for the OP?
Had her typing fingers developed a cramp?
Did she live in an alternate Universe where Alien Overlords had forbidden the use of Wikipedia?
Did she have some rare learning disability that would cause her brain to explode if she read the word "Norway?"

The bottom line was that I had been able to find sites that answered ALL of her questions (five of them) in less than 90 seconds, using just Google.

Like most folks here at AW, I've received some useful advice, and I want to give back. If someone has a hard-to-research question and I can help, I am THERE. Like "what does it feel like to attend a Jewish religious school?" "How does it feel to fire a gun for the first time in your thirties?" or "Can anyone recommend good books on medieval history focusing on peasant revolts?" Anything that can't be easily Googled or Wiki'd.

But when someone asks a question whose answer would take them thirty seconds to find on Wikipedia, and then fifteen minutes to read, just because they want to be spoon-fed instead - it's insulting. It's a waste of time and bandwidth, and it does those posters no good...because if they're so lazy or clueless that they can't even do that level of research for themselves, they're never going to be able to write.

I will never respond to those posts again. And I recommend that no one else does either.

Okay, I'm off the soapbox now.

Mods, keep it here or move it to wherever. Thanks for your patience.

maxmordon · Apr 19, 2008

Good rant, I am bit guilty of this and I only try to have to ask help to our fellow members when I don't have other choice

JJ Cooper · Apr 20, 2008

Smiling Ted said:
So I was cruising the forum, looking at the research threads, when I spotted one that was titled- Well, let's not say what is was titled, because I'm about to say some uncomplimentary things, and I don't want to single out a particular person. Let's call it "Queries about Medieval Scandinavia."

I thought Hey, I'm a big fan of lutefisjk and Leif Ericsson, why don't I jet in and see if I can help? The questions were things like "what was the basic Viking marriage?" and "What did Viking homes look like?" and I had just Googled the words "marriage," and "Viking," when I suddenly asked myself What am I doing!?

Why on Earth was I doing ACTUAL RESEARCH for the OP?
Had her typing fingers developed a cramp?
Did she live in an alternate Universe where Alien Overlords had forbidden the use of Wikipedia?
Did she have some rare learning disability that would cause her brain to explode if she read the word "Norway?"

The bottom line was that I had been able to find sites that answered ALL of her questions (five of them) in less than 90 seconds, using just Google.

Like most folks here at AW, I've received some useful advice, and I want to give back. If someone has a hard-to-research question and I can help, I am THERE. Like "what does it feel like to attend a Jewish religious school?" "How does it feel to fire a gun for the first time in your thirties?" or "Can anyone recommend good books on medieval history focusing on peasant revolts?" Anything that can't be easily Googled or Wiki'd.

But when someone asks a question whose answer would take them thirty seconds to find on Wikipedia, and then fifteen minutes to read, just because they want to be spoon-fed instead - it's insulting. It's a waste of time and bandwidth, and it does those posters no good...because if they're so lazy or clueless that they can't even do that level of research for themselves, they're never going to be able to write.

I will never respond to those posts again. And I recommend that no one else does either.

Okay, I'm off the soapbox now.

Mods, keep it here or move it to wherever. Thanks for your patience.

Because single source reporting like Wikipedia should not be trusted. Thorough research includes Google and asking for the opinions of those who may be subject matter experts on a topic or have some knowledge to share. The same should be said for questions asked here. You don't know if I'm making stuff up. So you should still consult the internet even if I give you a response or wait until that response is confirmed by another user or three.

So, not every person who posts questions on this board that can be answered by a Google search are lazy or clueless.

JJ

Mac H. · Apr 20, 2008

Agreed - although people might want to give the impression that they have tried other avenues as well.

---

In response, you could always give them a helpful site to refer to.

In your case ('Viking' & 'Wedding'), this would be:

http://tinyurl.com/6g6ync

Mac
(After 15 seconds it will redirect to a google search of 'Viking' & 'Wedding')

Deleted member 42 · Apr 20, 2008

I mostly don't mind those queries, though there are exceptions that do annoy me, principally:

1. Members who only ever post queries, and never ever respond to anyone else's.

2. Members who receive helpful, accurate responses from knowledgeable colleagues--and then proceed to dismiss those responses as "inaccurate," or otherwise "wrong."

HeronW · Apr 20, 2008

Not everyone is at the same computer savvy/web familiar level.

I have no problem with looking something up and posting a reply that takes 60-120 seconds. Usually I find stuff to interest me as well so my time isn't wasted, nor are my efforts.

Replies to all threads are voluntary, not mandatory.

Would the problem be more of a 'I want to help and feel like a schmuck for doing so'? That's a very different issue from replying to a reference/research query.

LIVIN · Apr 20, 2008

(Off to the story research thread I go...)

Well, that ws quick and easy... I see the person in question has a fair number of posts... I was expecting someone doing a research project for school that had less than ten posts... anyway, thanks for the laugh

reigningcatsndogs · Apr 20, 2008

I love the research threads. With the amount of knowledge and experience we have at AW, the research threads always give you a chance to learn something you didn't know. If someone asks a question that sort of piques my curiosity, I'll start looking around or crack open a book or two, because it becomes an amazing opportunity for me to learn more, which gives me more avenues of possibility in my writing while maybe helping someone else. It's all good.

:Lecture:

It's a bad day when you don't learn something new.

Cathy C · Apr 20, 2008

I don't mind doing research, but I've found that you get the most INTERESTING useless trivia when you ask open-ended questions on a forum like this.

I mean, until I posted a thread asking about Ukrainian foods eaten during Christmas, I never would have known some of the strange quirks about making psyanky (folk art dyed eggs) like accidentally burning an egg when you were melting the wax off. I'd already talked to a professional artist and watched her make eggs, but it's the little day to day stuff that is fascinating, and threads with open ended questions can get you all the day to day stuff that an article or a book can't give you.

How did dyeing eggs come up in a thread about Christmas foods? Threads evolve, which is why they're so popular. Real people don't think linearly, so Christmas foods moved to Christmas traditions and then to general holiday traditions. Then to hobbies and, well, you get the idea.

Sometimes I'll ask specific questions here, but sometimes I'm looking for LOTS of angles to a vague idea. When a character is expected to be an expert in something, they need those tiny details that make things realistic.

So I'm all in favor of newbie questions that COULD be answered easily through web research, but are BETTER answered through multiple viewpoints, on a site GEARED to writers. I try to answer them when I can.

Just my .02

jst5150 · Apr 21, 2008

This is a multi-legged animal.

This forum gets asked the same questions a multitude of times ("What font should my manuscript be in?"). And they have been answered a multitude of times. And yet, no one searches before asking, or, they do, and somehow enter the wrong keywords or something.

I'm also surprised at the number of questions, I've looked at, Googled and come back with a credible link for. And the effort took me like 30 seconds. Yeah the person could have done it, but maybe the circumstances were overriding. Whatever. I assume they are here because they have a bona fide need to ask that question and get our help.

I'm also a little surprised when someone asks a no-kidding good question and fails to get an answer, or, as Medievalist said, the correct answer gets browbeaten across one end of the forum and down the other.

For what it's worth, if it's something I can answer, I'll answer it. And I'll do a modicum of research, esp. if it's within a particular area of expertise. What frustrates me is when someone just pops into the thread and says, "This has been answered several times. Search for the answer." That's frustrating, esp. when the querant is new and the responder is an AW Forum vet. Imagine if someone walked in your home and asked for the bathroom, and you said, "That's been asked several times tonight. Ask someone else." It'd be strange and I'd probably just pee on your shag.

That said, there's something to be said about engendering people here, and offering assistance wherever we're capable.

Smiling Ted · Apr 21, 2008

maxmordon said:
Good rant, I am bit guilty of this and I only try to have to ask help to our fellow members when I don't have other choice

Maxmordon-

I was definitely not referring to you. English isn't your first language, and I know that there are a lot more English research resources on the Internet than there are sources in Spanish, Danish, or other languages. I'd be happy to help you whenever I could.

I was talking about the kind of people who call you into the kitchen to get them a beer from the fridge, metaphorically speaking.

T

NeuroFizz · Apr 21, 2008

There is such an impressive membership here, with diverse interests that are frequently very in-depth, that making a general query may flush out one of the world's formost experts on Norwegian family history, or at least some individual from Norway who has a rich (and documented) family history. At AW, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.

Also, with such a query, suggestions are frequently posted that refer to original references or books that go well beyond the popular "sound-bites" of Wiki-media.

DL Hegel · Apr 21, 2008

not relating to your forum research--but i did do research for another writer who wanted to ref: obscure texts--the problem was they weren't obscureand one was imaginary

. In 10 minutes I had sent him web links to the ones he asked about and few he hadn't--He seemed shocked--but did he even look? I told him he would better off making up a text or codex--rather trying to find an "original" necronomicon :roll:

Smiling Ted · Apr 21, 2008

JJ Cooper said:
Because single source reporting like Wikipedia should not be trusted. Thorough research includes Google and asking for the opinions of those who may be subject matter experts on a topic or have some knowledge to share. The same should be said for questions asked here. You don't know if I'm making stuff up. So you should still consult the internet even if I give you a response or wait until that response is confirmed by another user or three.

So, not every person who posts questions on this board that can be answered by a Google search are lazy or clueless.

JJ

"Single source reporting" is a concern when consulting Wikipedia on something controversial, like Hillary Clinton's candidacy or Taiwanese Independence. But when the question is "When was the Battle of Hastings"...not so much.

That is the level of question I'm talking about. Not just one that could be answered by a Google search, but a purely factual one that could be answered by the first link of a Google search, posed by someone who understands the Web well enough to be a registered user of this forum, and so is at least passingly familiar with the notion of Internet research.

But hey, AW is voluntary, thank God. If anyone wants to do the research for those kind of questions, more power to them.

DL Hegel · Apr 21, 2008

I use the web as an adder for something I already know to be true---new things I go to the library and dig thru books--but politics never interest me--because I keep thinking "liar liar pants on fire" --and I worked long enough in the newspaper and media world to know--misquotes are daily and people ref: without verifying

My fav was years ago I was working for a cable news show and a couple of music rags(mags) at the time. Another gal at the station did the local music show.

A local well respected paper printed an article on why a local band broke up. I knew all the band mates personally and each had come to me at different times in that past month to tell me about their coming break-up
and why--It did not resemble the story that was printed "bass and guitar player got into a major fist fight" Well the drummer had told tall tales to a reporter he didn't confirm this story with other sources.

another newspaper reprinted parts of the story and the wacky music gal put it on her show.

That month when my column came out I told true story and told everyone shame on you always check your sources--by the way the bass player and guitar player never even yelled at eachother--they had civil break-up over creative issues

Smiling Ted said:
"Single source reporting" is a concern when consulting Wikipedia on something controversial, like Hillary Clinton's candidacy or Taiwanese Independence. But when the question is "When was the Battle of Hastings"...not so much.

That is the level of question I'm talking about. Not just one that could be answered by a Google search, but a purely factual one that could be answered by the first link of a Google search, posed by someone who understands the Web well enough to be a registered user of this forum, and so is at least passingly familiar with the notion of Internet research.

But hey, AW is voluntary, thank God. If anyone wants to do the research for those kind of questions, more power to them.

BenPanced · Apr 21, 2008

Medievalist said:
I mostly don't mind those queries, though there are exceptions that do annoy me, principally:

1. Members who only ever post queries, and never ever respond to anyone else's.

2. Members who receive helpful, accurate responses from knowledgeable colleagues--and then proceed to dismiss those responses as "inaccurate," or otherwise "wrong."

Oh, no. That never happens. Not here. Nope. No, sireebob.

*HRAKCH!* Excuse me. I really need to stop asking my cat for grooming tips.

TerzaRima · Apr 21, 2008

This isn't a problem for me in cyberspace, just IRL.

Example from last week. This happens all the time:

Colleague: (enters) Hi, Terza. What does coup de foudre mean?

Me: I can't remember. (Googling.) Here you go.

Colleague: Oh, I guess I could have done that myself.

I don't get people.

Silver King · Apr 21, 2008

I was of the same mind as Ted for a while and ran into a similar situation in the Research forum some time ago. I was going to explain what happened, but I found the thread instead.

Like Ted, you'll notice I was also feeling a little cranky about the subject. Since then, though, I cruise right by such threads and don't bother responding.

(Jamesaritchie gave me a good swipe in that thread. He was mad at me for something I said in another discussion and followed me there. I really miss that guy. He was fairly opinionated but offered a wealth of writing info to the members here.)

Sage · Apr 21, 2008

I think the research threads are good for when you're looking for personal experiences, not just facts. For example, I've used it to ask about people's experiences with Hospice. Now if I Google hospice, I'll get sites for individual hospices, and general descriptions of what they are and what they do. But I had a specific question about a specific situation, and people here were willing and able to share their experiences with hospice and whether the situation was plausible. If OTOH I was to come in and ask, "What's a service Blah City's Hospice might provide?" that'd definitely be an easy search.

Another situation where asking others who might have experience/knowledge about a subject would help better than a Google search is if you just need a place to start. I asked my friend, knowing that he had some knowledge of cool guns used in movies, what kind of gun he thought a couple of characters would carry. Once he pointed me in the right direction, I researched the guns myself to find out what I needed for the novel. But if I had just Googled "assassin gun" or "gun" or even "cool gun"

, I wouldn't have a clue what I was looking at and whether it was applicable.

So, yeah, just because it's obvious to you how to research the subject, doesn't mean it's obvious to the other person, and sometimes all they need is someone to point in the right direction.

JoNightshade · Apr 21, 2008

Cathy C hit it right on the head. I looooove how a thread about some simple obvious topic will evolve into a discussion of everyone's interesting, peripherally related experiences. I get so many ideas from browsing those threads.

Yesterday I started a thread with one purpose in mind: finding out if the incubation period for pneumonia could be as little as 4 days.

Could I have looked that up? Yes. I actually did look it up on the internet, and the standard answer is something like 5 days to two weeks.

But I know that this is, in fact, the "standard" answer. But I didn't want standard, I wanted real-life experience, which is often very different than the exact boundaries in medical books. And I got a ton of really great answers about people's experiences with pneumonia.

Every time I run up against something I'm not familiar with, but need to know how it feels or tastes or works or whatever, I ask the question on AW. This forum rocks.

Research Rant - Do It Your DAMN' Self

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

maxmordon

Penúltimo

JJ Cooper

.

Mac H.

Board Visitor

Deleted member 42

HeronW

Down Under Fan

LIVIN

reigningcatsndogs

Too sad for words.

Cathy C

Ooo! Shiny new cover!

jst5150

Vorpal Comics. Weekly Podcast. Twitch Artist. Vet

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

NeuroFizz

The grad students did it

DL Hegel

Tigress Tyrant

Smiling Ted

Ah-HA!

DL Hegel

Tigress Tyrant

BenPanced

THE BLUEBERRY QUEEN OF HADES (he/him)

TerzaRima

Absinthe O'Malice

Silver King

Megalops Erectus

Sage

Supreme Guessinator

JoNightshade

has finally arrived