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Old 04-07-2008, 10:23 PM   #1
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Polygamist raid

Hi there

I'm new to the P&CE page, but I wanted to post about this polygamist thing going on in Texas.

I, for one, am completely flabbergasted that in all the news coverage I've seen nobody has said much about how completely the rights of these people in this community are being trampled. They obviously choose to live a lifestyle that is not shared by their Texan neighbors. Apparently there was one phone call reporting physical violence. I'm not in favor of physical violence, of course, but I think it is outrageous that their entire community has been stormed and women and children taken into custody based on one unsubstantiated phone call.

Why doesn't anyone react this way to the unbearable violence in our inner-cities? Why are these people being persecuted?

WHAT IS GOING ON THERE??? WHY ISN'T ANYONE SAYING ANYTHING!! They have every right to live a life without television and crayons if they choose! I am floored. Thoughts?

http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/04/07/...nch/index.html

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Old 04-07-2008, 10:36 PM   #2
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the complaint was from a 16 year old saying she was married to a 50 year old man and had given birth to his child.

in texas, children under 16 can't get married, even with parental permission, without a court order.

if the complaint is valid, the man is a rapist. i don't give a shit who he worships.

that said, i'm keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't turn violent.
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Old 04-07-2008, 10:50 PM   #3
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They have every right to live a life without television and crayons if they choose!
Sure, but they don't have a right to institutionalized sexual abuse.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:05 PM   #4
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See, and I gotta say, I haven't seen any evidence of institutionalized sexual abuse, nor have I seen anyone even suggest that such evidence exists.

What I have seen is people from different places and different situations entirely from the one being discussed being asked their opinion about what they think might be going on. This should not be happening without a case built on evidence. If the evidence is there, it should not be that hard to gather. To go in and remove people from their homes and families without that evidence is not cool with me.

Also, nobody is freaking out over 14 and 15 year olds having sex in uncommitted relationships, so why do we throw a conniptic fit when they get married? I lived near a high school not to long ago where, when school got out, about 30 girls came out pushing babies and toddlers in strollers (NE Philadelphia). But they weren't married, so I guess it was okay?? This makes no sense to me.

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Old 04-07-2008, 11:05 PM   #5
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the complaint was from a 16 year old saying she was married to a 50 year old man and had given birth to his child.

in texas, children under 16 can't get married, even with parental permission, without a court order.

if the complaint is valid, the man is a rapist. i don't give a shit who he worships.

that said, i'm keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't turn violent.

I agree with this. From some of the coverage I've seen and what I've read, it sounds almost cult-like anyway.

As of this morning they were saying they still haven't found the girl.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:11 PM   #6
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the complaint was from a 16 year old saying she was married to a 50 year old man and had given birth to his child.

in texas, children under 16 can't get married, even with parental permission, without a court order.

if the complaint is valid, the man is a rapist. i don't give a shit who he worships.

that said, i'm keeping my fingers crossed that it doesn't turn violent.
A supposed report of an underage marriage prompts the arrests of more that 200 people? And the underage person who made the report cannot be located? This is outrageous.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:15 PM   #7
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the 200 are women and children who have been removed, not arrested.

do a little reading on warren jeffs before you act like this is some baseless witch hunt.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:16 PM   #8
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Echo what Haskins just cross-posted with me. Bear in mind, the leader of this group, the man who built the compound, the "prophet", is currently serving a long stretch in prison as a result of multiple accessory-to-rape convictions, the consequence of forcing the "marriages" of underage girls to adult men, often relatives. This isn't exactly a simple matter of "underage marriage". The Texas complaint cannot be looked upon as an isolated incident. Or ignored.

If you need a real eye-opener to where this kind of thing can go, google "Ervil LeBaron".

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Old 04-07-2008, 11:16 PM   #9
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A supposed report of an underage marriage prompts the arrests of more that 200 people? And the underage person who made the report cannot be located? This is outrageous.
From what I have seen on CNN, they are not under arrest but are being provided shelter and food from the local First Baptist Church. Each of them are being individually interviewed by a welfare worker.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:17 PM   #10
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Hi there

I'm new to the P&CE page, but I wanted to post about this polygamist thing going on in Texas.

I, for one, am completely flabbergasted that in all the news coverage I've seen nobody has said much about how completely the rights of these people in this community are being trampled. They obviously choose to live a lifestyle that is not shared by their Texan neighbors. Apparently there was one phone call reporting physical violence. I'm not in favor of physical violence, of course, but I think it is outrageous that their entire community has been stormed and women and children taken into custody based on one unsubstantiated phone call.

Why doesn't anyone react this way to the unbearable violence in our inner-cities? Why are these people being persecuted?

WHAT IS GOING ON THERE??? WHY ISN'T ANYONE SAYING ANYTHING!! They have every right to live a life without television and crayons if they choose! I am floored. Thoughts?
If they were living a life without television and crayons, I rather doubt the FBI and huge number of police would be dispatched to deal with it. The activities of the FLDS under Warren Steed Jeffs is very well documented in the media. The treatment of these women is also well documented. Granted, Jeffs is finally in jail, but his teachings are still out there, and this 'community' has direct links to Jeffs-- they claim his as their prophet.

In essence, these sick men are nothing more than rampant pedophiles, concerned with nothing more than the perpetual creation of more victims, all of them kept under lock and key, controlled by religious rhetoric and the total lack of any education or awareness that what is happening to them is not only wrong but illegal.

People do have the right to practice whatever religion they desire. People do NOT have the right to completely and totally manipulate and abuse others under the guise of religion, and NO religious group should be above the laws that govern the land in which they choose to set up camp.

There is another 'community' that was the creation of Jeffs. It is here in Canada, called Bountiful. Some people manage to 'escape' from it and their stories are horrendous.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:18 PM   #11
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the 200 are women and children who have been removed, not arrested.
Ooooh, that's comforting! But how did they remove them without arresting them?
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:19 PM   #12
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the same way that you remove abused women or children from a tenement without arresting them.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:23 PM   #13
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See, and I gotta say, I haven't seen any evidence of institutionalized sexual abuse, nor have I seen anyone even suggest that such evidence exists.

What I have seen is people from different places and different situations entirely from the one being discussed being asked their opinion about what they think might be going on. This should not be happening without a case built on evidence. If the evidence is there, it should not be that hard to gather. To go in and remove people from their homes and families without that evidence is not cool with me.

Also, nobody is freaking out over 14 and 15 year olds having sex in uncommitted relationships, so why do we throw a conniptic fit when they get married? I lived near a high school not to long ago where, when school got out, about 30 girls came out pushing babies and toddlers in strollers (NE Philadelphia). But they weren't married, so I guess it was okay?? This makes no sense to me.
The marriages are forced. The women are kept under lock and key -- they know this because some women do manage to escape from other Warren Jeffs 'communities'. The marriages are to their uncles, their cousins, and yes, even their fathers.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/law/11/20...nce/index.html

"Previous visits by CNN revealed the ranch was guarded by armed men equipped with night-vision gear and other high-tech surveillance tools to prevent intruder."

According to the members who escaped from Bountiful, this is as much to keep the girls in as it is to keep intruders out.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:23 PM   #14
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Ooooh, that's comforting! But how did they remove them without arresting them?
"Arrest" is a formal legal term, Julie. It means to take into custody, pending legal charges. Any other lexicography help you need today?

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Old 04-07-2008, 11:26 PM   #15
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the same way that you remove abused women or children from a tenement without arresting them.
They were looking for one supposodly abused person. They didn't find her.

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Old 04-07-2008, 11:31 PM   #16
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"Arrest" is a formal legal term, Julie. It means to take into custody, pending legal charges. Any other lexicography help you need today?

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To take into custody by legal authority is the definition of arrest, which was done in this case. Legal charges are not necessary (and especially not in Texas, nor did they have anything but the most tenuous legal justification. Do this same thing in Iran, and we'd be complaining wildly about it.).
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:39 PM   #17
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Yet.

And the state can and does take custody of underage people when there is sufficient evidence of sexual abuse. A minor married to an adult is sufficient evidence. If an adult has knowledge of a crime and does not report it, they are an accessory to the crime, and subject to arrest. That those women haven't been arrested is probably due to the recognition that they have also been abused. Technically, they could be arrested and charged.

Polygamy is a crime. Forcing someone into marriage is a crime. Sexual abuse of a minor is a crime. Law enforcement officers are empowered to make arrests when they suspect crimes have been committed, to allow them time to gather evidence, and to protect victims. I fail to see what is wrong here. The only thing that is wrong is housing the 200 women together, as they could still intimidate each other.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:42 PM   #18
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I'm very familiar with the FLDS church having lived a goodly portion of my life in Utah. I have acquaintances who were raised in polygamous households. (Not FLDS)

But groups like the FLDS church present a real problem, because they straddle the border between a religious sect and a cult. Religious in that they are an offshoot of the LDS Church and hold to many of the same principles, much like extreme fundamentalist offshoots of mainstream Christian churches hold many of the same tenets of those churches.

Cultlike in that all power resides in a charismatic leader, their adherents are either separated from the outside world or discouraged from interacting, and one of the basic tenets of the church, coincidentally, provides the senior members with an ongoing supply of teenage girls to be wives.

In Utah, polygamy, although illegal, is tolerated by government and law enforcement as long as it's kept low profile. No one wants to open that religion/state can of worms. They tend to crack down only when there are complaints from underage victims about arranged marriages.

But there are states where sixteen is the age of consent, with permission of the parents, who are more than happy to give consent when directed to do so by the leader. Warren Jeffs got himself in trouble only because he arranged and facilitated a marriage for a follower with a fourteen year old girl.

But what if the girl is 16? or even 18? Having been isolated from mainstream society and brainwashed from birth as to the evils of the outside world, as well as the proper place of women in their closed society, what kind of "choice" is really involved here?

And the practice of multiple wives being parceled out to senior members leaves a surplus of teenage boys, many of whom are kicked out of the community -- often ostensibly for sinful behavior such as wearing short sleeved shirts, and abandoned to make it on their own without any knowledge, education, or training that would enable them to make it in the outside world. Some of them them turn to prostitution to survive.

They have been termed "The Lost Boys," and have recently sued the FLDS church, although iIdon't think anything ever came of it.

The FLDS church is a truly awful cult. But the right of such groups to practice their own brand of religion and the "right" of cults to isolate and control their followers, most of whom are born into the system, is a tricky proposition without any clear guidelines.

I don't think there will be any violence, however, -- although internecine violence is not unknown to the FLDS church, it doesn't have that doomsday mentality that often leads to tragedy.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:43 PM   #19
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Yet.

And the state can and does take custody of underage people when there is sufficient evidence of sexual abuse. A minor married to an adult is sufficient evidence.
One phone call and you arrest 200 people? Come on.


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Polygamy is a crime. Forcing someone into marriage is a crime.
The first one is a religious crime. The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.


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The only thing that is wrong is housing the 200 women together, as they could still intimidate each other.
As in sexually segregated dorms?
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:47 PM   #20
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Also, nobody is freaking out over 14 and 15 year olds having sex in uncommitted relationships, so why do we throw a conniptic fit when they get married? I lived near a high school not to long ago where, when school got out, about 30 girls came out pushing babies and toddlers in strollers (NE Philadelphia). But they weren't married, so I guess it was okay?? This makes no sense to me.
Actually, they do throw hippy connipy fits when 14- and 15-year-olds have sex with adults. Happens in the news all the time. It's call statutory rape.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:51 PM   #21
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One phone call and you arrest 200 people? Come on.
As pointed out, the authorities had their eyes on this place for a long time. Previous complaints of sexual crimes associated with this group = less benefit of the doubt. Common sense.

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It's a religious crime.
So? Can people commit crimes just because their religion says so? Suppose I were to convert to the worship of Huitzilopochtli, would that permit me to perform human sacrifice? You can make up a religion to justify any crime. Polygamy is a violation of the principle that everyone is equal. If it were consensual, that would be one thing, but this isn't. And locking someone away and brainwashing them doesn't equal consent.

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The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.
Which country are you talking about? Martinique is a department of France, so I doubt you are talking about that. In France forced marriage is frowned upon. If you are talking about the USA it isn't common. I've met plenty of people who are married, none who were forced to do it. Marriage is a contract. Forcing someone into a contract is illegal.

Quote:
As in sexually segregated dorms.
What are you talking about? that doesn't even come close to making sense. I'm saying that some of the women are probably part of the problem, and might try to intimdate the others, as is common among cults.

Last edited by Sarpedon; 04-08-2008 at 12:18 AM.
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:55 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Julie Worth View Post
The first one is a religious crime. The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.
Being 50 and having sex with 15-year-olds though...
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Old 04-07-2008, 11:56 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Julie Worth View Post
The first one is a religious crime. The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.
You probably didn't have any problem with Jim Jones, either, did you?

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Old 04-08-2008, 12:03 AM   #24
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Buy a 1,900 acre piece of land in any rural area of the US, build a compound; temple, etc. House 200 plus people and you’re begging for some law enforcement attention.
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Old 04-08-2008, 12:03 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by Julie Worth View Post
One phone call and you arrest 200 people? Come on.




The first one is a religious crime. The second one is a common practice in this country, and not a crime.




As in sexually segregated dorms?
I have just been gooling like crazy -- nowhere that I can find has reported the 200 were arrested. They were removed, some were taken into state custody in order for them to be provided protection. These people recognized as victims, no different than the authorities would want to remove hostages from a volatile situation. They aren't being arrested.

And the sexual component really no different in many respects to the cases where a school teacher is involved with an underage student -- there's the issue of age but also the issue of authority and coercion. The girls involved are NOT willing participants, though. They are told they have to, they are taught they have to, many have no idea that it's wrong because they have been exposed to it all their lives, and the ones who do know its wrong have no means of escape.
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