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Old 01-13-2008, 12:21 AM   #26
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I consider myself a feminist and I really like both Hillary Clinton and Obama. I'll vote for either one, when the candidate is chosen.


It's nice to have a choice this time, unlike the last election.

And I sure wish the whole Monica / Bill thing would be water under the bridge already. The man paid his dues to his wife, for heaven's sake, can we just move on?


LOTS of marriages suffer from infidelities and it's really up to the parties involved whether or not they stay together.

How much support would Hillary be getting now if she had divorced her biggest asset in her campaign - Bill?


Talk about a catch 22.
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:23 AM   #27
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Where is she saying this? I've never felt this was her campaign message.

It's not nor has she ever said such a thing, but just about anything can be attributed to her with impunity.
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:26 AM   #28
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that's not true. for every unfair thing said about her, or attributed to her, with sexist intentions, there are plenty of defenses of her.
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:26 AM   #29
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Here's the dichotomy:

Husbands with cheating wives can dump them freely, since a woman has no right to embarrass her husband in this manner. However, if the man forgives her, he can be lauded.

Wives with cheating husbands, while being wronged, should still have the decorum to not make an issue of it and just deal with it.
See, but I don't even think that this is the case anymore. At least among women who can support themselves without their husband's income. If my husband cheated on me, I think I would feel pressure among my peers to kick his butt out, not "deal with it." If I decided to stay, I believe most of my freinds would think I was being a chump.

Her personal life is just not a deal breaker for me. I like to actually pay attention to the issues.
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:28 AM   #30
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I consider myself a feminist and I really like both Hillary Clinton and Obama. I'll vote for either one, when the candidate is chosen.


It's nice to have a choice this time, unlike the last election.

And I sure wish the whole Monica / Bill thing would be water under the bridge already. The man paid his dues to his wife, for heaven's sake, can we just move on?


LOTS of marriages suffer from infidelities and it's really up to the parties involved whether or not they stay together.

How much support would Hillary be getting now if she had divorced her biggest asset in her campaign - Bill?


Talk about a catch 22.

I don't think Bill is much of an asset. In fact, I think she'd be just fine without him. However, had she divorced him, no doubt she would be an unforgiving hard-hearted woman that was so cold that she must have driven him into somebody else's arms.
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Old 01-13-2008, 12:38 AM   #31
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that's not true. for every unfair thing said about her, or attributed to her, with sexist intentions, there are plenty of defenses of her.
That is only true as of very recently, when it became unavoidably obvious that she was being unfairly portrayed, her issues ignored while she was contemptuously mocked in the media. Thus, the backlash; it began in NH. In fact, I saw a perfect example of her ill treatment the other night on PBS. The discussion involved three men analyzing the election. They never even mentioned her as a candidate. All they talked about was Obama vs. McCain and/or Huckabee as if NH never happened and she didn't exist. It was laughable.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:04 AM   #32
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See, but I don't even think that this is the case anymore. At least among women who can support themselves without their husband's income. If my husband cheated on me, I think I would feel pressure among my peers to kick his butt out, not "deal with it." If I decided to stay, I believe most of my freinds would think I was being a chump.
Right. That's exactly the point. That was a goal of the movement. You should be able to walk away from a cheatin husband as easily--and without the stigma--as a man can walk away from a cheatin wife. And I agree, it's no longer the case for some. For some. But it's far from a fully destroyed archetype. So, the problem for Hillary in this respect is that she can be--can be--portrayed as having betrayed the movement, as having "stood by her man." You and everyone else can say you don't see it that way, personally, but it doesn't change the fact that she did exactly what feminists where critical of, regardless of her reasons. And the fact is, appearance is everything, once an affair is out in the open.

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Her personal life is just not a deal breaker for me. I like to actually pay attention to the issues.
Me too. I don't give a whit about her husband's philandering and her choices on how to deal with it, when it comes to my opinion of her (though my opinion of him was altered, based on the specifics of his actions).
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:05 AM   #33
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[quote=Bird of Prey;1960723]I don't think Bill is much of an asset.[\quote]

are you kidding?

bill's a HUGE asset.

he's probably more popular among women in this country then hillary is.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:08 AM   #34
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:15 AM   #35
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In other words, Hillary stands for everything feminists are against, and not just because she stayed with Bill but because of her "follow me because I'm a woman" mentality.
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Where is she saying this? I've never felt this was her campaign message.
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It's not nor has she ever said such a thing, but just about anything can be attributed to her with impunity.
Oh, come on:

"By the very virtue of running for president as a woman I am a change agent."

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Vote2008/st...4098182&page=1

She's holding up her sex as a significant element of her campaign. No?

Sure, she's not saying it flat out. That would be stupid. But she's clearly banking on the sentiment for votes. And mein gott, there's nothing really wrong with that--she's trying to win the Presidency. Obama isn't saying to vote for him because he's black, but he's not gonna refuse the votes of those who do.

When politicians say "don't vote for me because I'm a [whatever], vote for me because I'm the best candidate," they're reminding people that they're a [whatever]. Intentionally. Politics 101. That will be $350 a credit...
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:17 AM   #36
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I do think she could make a successful bid for the presidency without him. The reason why I said that he's not much of an asset is that her relationship with him is incessantly used against her and in numerous ways. I agree that he has a substantial draw, but his womanizing has not stood him well, particularly with women. Thus, his "popularity" with women is questionable, or as Bravo suggested, that he is more popular with women than Hillary, is a reach.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:21 AM   #37
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Right. That's exactly the point. That was a goal of the movement. You should be able to walk away from a cheatin husband as easily--and without the stigma--as a man can walk away from a cheatin wife. And I agree, it's no longer the case for some. For some. But it's far from a fully destroyed archetype. So, the problem for Hillary in this respect is that she can be--can be--portrayed as having betrayed the movement, as having "stood by her man." You and everyone else can say you don't see it that way, personally, but it doesn't change the fact that she did exactly what feminists where critical of, regardless of her reasons. And the fact is, appearance is everything, once an affair is out in the open.

Yes, you are probably right, but I do think feminism has evolved quite a bit since then.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:23 AM   #38
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Oh, come on:

"By the very virtue of running for president as a woman I am a change agent."

http://abcnews.go.com/WN/Vote2008/st...4098182&page=1
It's true, but she's not saying vote for me because I'm a woman. She's identifying something that is true: she's the first woman to ever run for president and it has an historic consequence; she might as well use it because nobody's letting her forget for a minute that she's a woman. Obama doesn't have to say that he's the first black man to run for president and therefore represents change because just about every pundit on the face of the earth and beyond is saying it for him.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:23 AM   #39
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This reminds me of that scene in the Sopranos when the mafia wives were discussing Hillary's personal life. One of them said "she took all that shit he gave her and spun it into gold."
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:27 AM   #40
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It's true, but she's not saying vote for me because I'm a woman. She's identifying something that is true: she's the first woman to ever run for president and it has an historic consequence; she might as well use it because nobody's letting her forget for a minute that she's a woman. Obama doesn't have to say that he's the first black man to run for president and therefore represents change because just about every pundit on the face of the earth and beyond is saying it for him.
But she's not the first woman to run for President. And Obama is not the first black man to run for President.

Is this like the "was Saddam behind 9-11" question?

Regardless, she is allowing the sentiment--to vote for her because she's a woman--to be maintained. I would say she's openly encouraging it, as well she should.

You have her on a pedestal, for some reason. I think that's unfair...to her.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:29 AM   #41
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Right. That's exactly the point. That was a goal of the movement. You should be able to walk away from a cheatin husband as easily--and without the stigma--as a man can walk away from a cheatin wife. . . .

And if you choose not to, fine. It's not a prerequisite for being a feminist. It's a choice and it's a social issue, Rob. It's not an issue like equal pay for equal work. And I know plenty of feminists that respect Hillary Clinton's decision.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:31 AM   #42
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But she's not the first woman to run for President. And Obama is not the first black man to run for President.

Is this like the "was Saddam behind 9-11" question?

Regardless, she is allowing the sentiment--to vote for her because she's a woman--to be maintained. I would say she's openly encouraging it, as well she should.

You have her on a pedestal, for some reason. I think that's unfair...to her.

I don't have her on a pedestal. But I think you have a bizarre idea of what women's rights and feminist thinking is all about.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:35 AM   #43
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But she's not the first woman to run for President. And Obama is not the first black man to run for President.
Technically, no. But, be real: Each is the first to have a truly significant chance at becoming President. No woman or black man has ever been nominated as a Presidential candidate from either major party. One will be this year.

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:35 AM   #44
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And if you choose not to, fine. It's not a prerequisite for being a feminist. It's a choice and it's a social issue, Rob. It's not an issue like equal pay for equal work. And I know plenty of feminists that respect Hillary Clinton's decision.
Yeah, so do I. But you're not getting this because of where you hang your hat, I think.

No matter what your personal take is, the fact remains that Hillary did exactly what the leaders of the movement had been asking women to NOT do, since the inception of the movement. That's all I'm saying. And there's really no way you can argue that this isn't true. I'm not an expert in the history of movement, but I know enough and have read enough to know I'm correct, here.

And the response of "times have changed" is fine, as long as you recognize that they have not changed everywhere with regard to the dichotomy of cases I presented, in the U.S. or the world. Many people still operate with that mindset--men and women.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:38 AM   #45
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Technically, no. But, be real: Each is the first to have a truly significant chance at becoming President. No woman or black man has ever been nominated as a Presidential candidate from either major party. One will be this year.

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Technically? No, "factually."
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:40 AM   #46
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I object to the notion that ANY candidate deserves a vote strictly because of what race/gender/religion etc they might belong to. While in the week between Iowa and NH I heard plenty of people on the radio (well, all right, women) say that they were baffled how any woman could not vote for Hillary, bcs of what she meant, I have yet to hear anyone saying they'd have to vote Republican because they were a white male.

It seems to me, gender/race/religion are, for the most part, irrelevant to the job itself. There are exceptions, sure, but I'd rather know what a candidate stands for on issues like education and health care, than whether they can pee standing up.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:40 AM   #47
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And the response of "times have changed" is fine, as long as you recognize that they have not changed everywhere with regard to the dichotomy of cases I presented, in the U.S. or the world. Many people still operate with that mindset--men and women.

But I'm not quite sure what you are arguing -- that feminist women will not vote for her because she stayed with her husband? I think that's way off-base.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:42 AM   #48
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I think one of the biggest problems with the feminist movement is that no one knows what the hell it is anymore.

And this is my proof.

http://www.absolutewrite.com/forums/...ad.php?t=89050

Thank you.
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Old 01-13-2008, 01:43 AM   #49
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Yeah, so do I. But you're not getting this because of where you hang your hat, I think.

No matter what your personal take is, the fact remains that Hillary did exactly what the leaders of the movement had been asking women to NOT do, since the inception of the movement. That's all I'm saying. And there's really no way you can argue that this isn't true. I'm not an expert in the history of movement, but I know enough and have read enough to know I'm correct, here.

And the response of "times have changed" is fine, as long as you recognize that they have not changed everywhere with regard to the dichotomy of cases I presented, in the U.S. or the world. Many people still operate with that mindset--men and women.
No, they have NOT been asking women to ditch philandering husbands since the inception of the movement. And yes, I can argue that's not true. That was hardly a priority.

And btw, when I refer to Obama and Clinton as historic firsts, it's because they have national traction. They actually have a shot. I suspect you were referring to Shirley Chisholm, but it's safe to say that she didn't have a shot at the presidency at the time.

And I suppose to be technically accurate, we have had a black president.

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Old 01-13-2008, 01:46 AM   #50
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Technically? No, "factually."
Captain Semantix strikes again.

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