Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1 - Page 288

HConn · 10-08-2008, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliopenjo

Hi there everyone,

The one thing I hate is thinking of a title for a story. Is there a magic formula, system, method, etc. for thinking of a title? I'm stuck to be honest and my working title is not too attractive, based on accumulated comments.

Help?

If you can't find a title within the story itself, you can always go to one of the sites that host searchable copies of Shakespeare's plays. Search his plays for any occurrence of a word that is prominent in your book. If that doesn't help, try Yeats or T.S. Elliot.

Good luck.

RJK · 10-08-2008, 01:59 AM

Another good source for titles is bible passages This site has a search function. It will find the every passage that contains the keyword you enter.

Calliopenjo · 10-08-2008, 05:34 AM

Thank you for your help. I would have never imagined Shakespeare reaching beyond the grave to lend his hand.

cooeedownunder · 10-08-2008, 03:21 PM

I can't wait to get to the end of this thread. So I thought I would post, if not for any other reason, than to let Jim know I’m totally enthralled by this thread. I can’t help wondering if he’s at the other end, where ever it ends. I thought about cheating, and just jumping to the end, but that would ruin the journey.

This thread in itself could make a great story. Am I learning? Well, yeah. I’ve managed to rewrite my first chapter, taking into account plot, theme, characters, pace and well, I can’t keep up with all the things I need to do.

I’m sitting here in 2004, and have spent the past month getting to page 60. Maybe by the time I’m well, gosh, how long does it take to get to the end of all these posts, I will get to see this post, and I guess by then, I will have another year of reading to do to get to the end. There is a great deal of suggestions, thoughts, and information that I am sure that those who started reading this prior, would have learnt a hell of a lot by the time they get to the end.

My challenge is to get those two hours of writing in a day in between getting to the end of this thread.

Calliopenjo · 10-09-2008, 03:12 AM

Hi Uncle Jim,

I get told this a lot "Your dialog is stilted." I finally looked it up and the translation to that is stiff. But if the dialog is supposed to be stiff or stilted (which I'm assuming is the new age lingo) do I change it anyway?

The dialog is supposed to be very formal. Cannot instead of can't, I am instead I'm and so on. Am I nitpicking by ignoring this and thinking that whoever it is just doesn't understand?

I don't mean to sound rude, crude, obnoxious, or a know-it-all, but I need to know.

geardrops · 10-09-2008, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliopenjo

Hi Uncle Jim,

I get told this a lot "Your dialog is stilted." I finally looked it up and the translation to that is stiff. But if the dialog is supposed to be stiff or stilted (which I'm assuming is the new age lingo) do I change it anyway?

The dialog is supposed to be very formal. Cannot instead of can't, I am instead I'm and so on. Am I nitpicking by ignoring this and thinking that whoever it is just doesn't understand?

I don't mean to sound rude, crude, obnoxious, or a know-it-all, but I need to know.

I'll tackle this again, since I think I'm one of the folk who called your dialogue stilted.

Formal dialogue is not necessarily stilted. And stilted dialogue is not necessarily formal.

Even if people speak very formally, avoiding conjunctions, using five-dollar-words when a ninety-nine-cent-word would have sufficed, etc, they still need to sound natural. When I read your dialogue few pages back--and it may have changed since then--the characters seemed less like real people and more like caricatures of the hoity-toity upper crust.

Best piece of advice I can give for you is to go where people would speak formally and listen. Take notes.

smsarber · 10-09-2008, 03:39 AM

Also speak it out loud to yourself. If it doesn't sound real to your own ears, it isn't natural. Even the most proper dialogue should sound real. Dialogue functions to give the most accurate insight into your character. When the reader reads your dialogue he/she should be able to imagine themselves as an eavesdropper listening in on the conversation.

allenparker · 10-09-2008, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smsarber

Also speak it out loud to yourself.

Good advice. I also use the "Read" function on my pdf reader. It reads my work horribly, but I get a better feel for how other people read what I write.

euclid · 10-09-2008, 07:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by smsarber

Also speak it out loud to yourself. If it doesn't sound real to your own ears, it isn't natural. Even the most proper dialogue should sound real. Dialogue functions to give the most accurate insight into your character. When the reader reads your dialogue he/she should be able to imagine themselves as an eavesdropper listening in on the conversation.

You've got to be kidding! The neighbours already think I'm mad, sitting at this desk all day long. If I start talking to myself, they'll send for the men in white coats.

smsarber · 10-09-2008, 07:32 PM

"We all go a little mad sometimes..." Anthony Perkins, "Psycho"

smsarber · 10-09-2008, 08:04 PM

Here's an example that doesn't even have to be read aloud to see the problems. Imagine the characters as seniors at a posh, expensive boarding school:

April saw it was Mike calling. She took a breath, pushed send, and put the phone to her ear.
"Hello, Mike."
"April, I just heard that you are thinking of withdrawing from school. I believe that would be a very bad mistake."
"But I cannot handle the teasing any longer. I have to leave."
**
Okay, pretty terrible. But let's see if I can make it more convincing:

April looked at her phone. It was Mike, calling, no doubt, to convince her to stay. She pushed send and put the phone to her ear.
"Hi, Mike."
"Hi, uh, I think we need to talk, April."
"I'm not going to change my mind."
"Think about it. If you quit school your parents will kill you! Or at least lock you up for the next year. We've only got four months to go until graduation. Besides, you don't want Piper and Maggie to win, do you?"
"But they tease me all the time, just cause I'm not as pretty, or as popular."
"So what? Let them tease. They're just jealous because you have a family that actually cares about you. And you have friends. All they have are sidekicks."
"Friends like you, Mike?"
"Yeah, friends like me."
**

Maybe not the best dialogue ever written, but instead of stiff it has life. And not because it has more detail, but because it sounds like something teenagers would say.

That's all the pearly nuggets I have for now.

euclid · 10-09-2008, 08:39 PM

Her 'phone rang. It was Mike. She put the instrument to her ear.
"April?"
"Yeah, Mike."
"What're you doin'?"
"Packing."
"You can't leave."
"I can't take any more, Mike."
"They're idiots. Just ignore them."
"That's easy for you to say."
"You can stick it out to graduation. It's just a few months."
"No, I can't. I've thought about it and I just can't."
"But you can't leave."
"Why not?"
"Who else laughs at my jokes?"

smsarber · 10-09-2008, 08:58 PM

Showin' me up, huh? Good job!

Telstar · 10-09-2008, 10:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by euclid

Her 'phone rang. It was Mike. She put the instrument to her ear.
"April?"
"Yeah, Mike."
"What're you doin'?"
"Packing."
"You can't leave."
"I can't take any more, Mike."
"They're idiots. Just ignore them."
"That's easy for you to say."
"You can stick it out to graduation. It's just a few months."
"No, I can't. I've thought about it and I just can't."
"But you can't leave."
"Why not?"
"Who else laughs at my jokes?"

Just add a couple of notations and it would be perfect.

bsolah · 10-10-2008, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by euclid

Her 'phone rang. It was Mike. She put the instrument to her ear.
"April?"
"Yeah, Mike."
"What're you doin'?"
"Packing."
"You can't leave."
"I can't take any more, Mike."
"They're idiots. Just ignore them."
"That's easy for you to say."
"You can stick it out to graduation. It's just a few months."
"No, I can't. I've thought about it and I just can't."
"But you can't leave."
"Why not?"
"Who else laughs at my jokes?"

Sure, it's good dialogue but not for what the purpose we're talking about. You can't distinguish these people as formal speaking yuppies from any old teenager.

smsarber · 10-10-2008, 04:02 AM

That was why I wrote mine the way I did. Of course it wasn't a perfect example, but fitting to serve its purpose.

smsarber · 10-10-2008, 09:37 AM

Hey Uncle Jim, do you remember the book I was working on a year and a half ago, "The Silvertone"? It's set in New Hampshire, and you gave me some tips on it. I'm doing a complete rewrite of it, and was wondering if there is a place I can find out a more accurate depiction of a New England-style dialect. I mean, if it was a book set in Tennessee I might use wording like "Y'all", or "dagummit". Or maybe average American style speach is fitting. I've never been anywhere in New England, so I just don't know.

Yeshanu · 10-10-2008, 06:02 PM

I'd suggest that you advertise on the boards for a beta reader who comes from New England, and ask that person to comment on the reality of the dialogue. You might also look up a few movies set in New England, and analyze them for dialogue.

smsarber · 10-10-2008, 07:33 PM

Good idea, Yeshanu. I've never considered using a Beta before, mainly because I can't afford to pay someone. But it's something for consideration. I want to write the best fiction I can, I don't want my readers to feel cheated.

Yeshanu · 10-10-2008, 08:36 PM

PAY for a beta?

Read the faqs, then post here.

This board has everything!

smsarber · 10-10-2008, 09:09 PM

I guess I was mis-informed! Thank you!

geardrops · 10-10-2008, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yeshanu

PAY for a beta?

Read the faqs, then post here.

This board has everything!

Damnit! Why'd you spoil it, Yeshanu? We coulda gotten paid!

Calliopenjo · 10-11-2008, 05:49 AM

Hi guys,

If I posted something here, not that i haven't done so before, about 2500 words worth would you give me an honest opinion? I went to SYW and posted there and I realize that authors are busy, sorry rambling, anyway, I seem to get only one view point over there. Wanted to know before making myself look like an idiot.

Yeshanu · 10-11-2008, 08:47 AM

Sorry about the link, folks. I didn't realized I'd linked to my birthday cake.

It's fixed now.

Calliopenjo, have you tried asking for crits in the SYW Starbucks thread? That often gets a few replies.

smsarber · 10-11-2008, 07:20 PM

Thanks again. I should have looked in the Beta forum a long time ago. I have no idea what I was thinking of, but it seems like somewhere, when I first joined these boards, I read of someone paying Beta. So I never thought to look for one.

10-08-2008, 05:34 AM	#7178
Calliopenjo Esteemed thinker Join Date: May 2008 Location: In a townhouse over looking the tumble weed fields. Posts: 801	Title of a Story-Thank you Thank you for your help. I would have never imagined Shakespeare reaching beyond the grave to lend his hand. __________________ Wounded I sing, tormented I indite. — Victor Herbert (1859-1924) Come visit @FiredanceBooks on Twitter. We have something coming.

10-08-2008, 03:21 PM	#7179
cooeedownunder Grateful for the day Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Australia Posts: 13,950	Time capsule I can't wait to get to the end of this thread. So I thought I would post, if not for any other reason, than to let Jim know I’m totally enthralled by this thread. I can’t help wondering if he’s at the other end, where ever it ends. I thought about cheating, and just jumping to the end, but that would ruin the journey. This thread in itself could make a great story. Am I learning? Well, yeah. I’ve managed to rewrite my first chapter, taking into account plot, theme, characters, pace and well, I can’t keep up with all the things I need to do. I’m sitting here in 2004, and have spent the past month getting to page 60. Maybe by the time I’m well, gosh, how long does it take to get to the end of all these posts, I will get to see this post, and I guess by then, I will have another year of reading to do to get to the end. There is a great deal of suggestions, thoughts, and information that I am sure that those who started reading this prior, would have learnt a hell of a lot by the time they get to the end. My challenge is to get those two hours of writing in a day in between getting to the end of this thread. __________________ SR Help us raise awareness for my missing sister by joining her facebook page - facebook group page Me on FACEBOOK I Blog sometimes Twitter ------------------------------------ A Woman Transported Kindle version on Amazon Read Reviews and Excerpt on Goodreads A Woman Transported book giveaway on Goodreads 5th May - 5th June 2013 Last edited by cooeedownunder; 10-09-2008 at 02:43 PM.

10-09-2008, 03:12 AM	#7180
Calliopenjo Esteemed thinker Join Date: May 2008 Location: In a townhouse over looking the tumble weed fields. Posts: 801	Stilted Dialog Hi Uncle Jim, I get told this a lot "Your dialog is stilted." I finally looked it up and the translation to that is stiff. But if the dialog is supposed to be stiff or stilted (which I'm assuming is the new age lingo) do I change it anyway? The dialog is supposed to be very formal. Cannot instead of can't, I am instead I'm and so on. Am I nitpicking by ignoring this and thinking that whoever it is just doesn't understand? I don't mean to sound rude, crude, obnoxious, or a know-it-all, but I need to know. __________________ Wounded I sing, tormented I indite. — Victor Herbert (1859-1924) Come visit @FiredanceBooks on Twitter. We have something coming.

10-09-2008, 03:39 AM	#7182
smsarber Coming soon to a nightmare near you Requiescat In Pace Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loathe them. ~E.A. Poe Posts: 4,855	Also speak it out loud to yourself. If it doesn't sound real to your own ears, it isn't natural. Even the most proper dialogue should sound real. Dialogue functions to give the most accurate insight into your character. When the reader reads your dialogue he/she should be able to imagine themselves as an eavesdropper listening in on the conversation. __________________ ~Steven Michael Sarber Fan Page "When we write we begin to taste the textures of our own mind."~Natalie Goldberg "I'm alone here, with emptiness, eagles and snow, unfriendliness chilling my body, and taunting with pictures of home."~Deep Purple Pictures of Home

10-09-2008, 07:32 PM	#7185
smsarber Coming soon to a nightmare near you Requiescat In Pace Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loathe them. ~E.A. Poe Posts: 4,855	"We all go a little mad sometimes..." Anthony Perkins, "Psycho" __________________ ~Steven Michael Sarber Fan Page "When we write we begin to taste the textures of our own mind."~Natalie Goldberg "I'm alone here, with emptiness, eagles and snow, unfriendliness chilling my body, and taunting with pictures of home."~Deep Purple Pictures of Home

10-08-2008, 01:59 AM	#7177
RJK Sheriff Bullwinkle the Poet says: Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Lewiston, NY Posts: 3,393	Another good source for titles is bible passages This site has a search function. It will find the every passage that contains the keyword you enter.

10-09-2008, 08:04 PM	#7186
smsarber Coming soon to a nightmare near you Requiescat In Pace Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loathe them. ~E.A. Poe Posts: 4,855	Here's an example that doesn't even have to be read aloud to see the problems. Imagine the characters as seniors at a posh, expensive boarding school: April saw it was Mike calling. She took a breath, pushed send, and put the phone to her ear. "Hello, Mike." "April, I just heard that you are thinking of withdrawing from school. I believe that would be a very bad mistake." "But I cannot handle the teasing any longer. I have to leave." Okay, pretty terrible. But let's see if I can make it more convincing: April looked at her phone. It was Mike, calling, no doubt, to convince her to stay. She pushed send and put the phone to her ear. "Hi, Mike." "Hi, uh, I think we need to talk, April." "I'm not going to change my mind." "Think about it. If you quit school your parents will kill you! Or at least lock you up for the next year. We've only got four months to go until graduation. Besides, you don't want Piper and Maggie to win, do you?" "But they tease me all the time, just cause I'm not as pretty, or as popular." "So what? Let them tease. They're just jealous because you have a family that actually cares about you. And you have friends. All they have are sidekicks." "Friends like you, Mike?" "Yeah, friends like me." Maybe not the best dialogue ever written, but instead of stiff it has life. And not because it has more detail, but because it sounds like something teenagers would say. That's all the pearly nuggets I have for now. __________________ ~Steven Michael Sarber Fan Page "When we write we begin to taste the textures of our own mind."~Natalie Goldberg "I'm alone here, with emptiness, eagles and snow, unfriendliness chilling my body, and taunting with pictures of home."~Deep Purple Pictures of Home

10-09-2008, 08:39 PM	#7187
euclid Where did I put me specs? Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Paradise Posts: 1,885	Her 'phone rang. It was Mike. She put the instrument to her ear. "April?" "Yeah, Mike." "What're you doin'?" "Packing." "You can't leave." "I can't take any more, Mike." "They're idiots. Just ignore them." "That's easy for you to say." "You can stick it out to graduation. It's just a few months." "No, I can't. I've thought about it and I just can't." "But you can't leave." "Why not?" "Who else laughs at my jokes?" __________________ Oops, I blogged. I'll clean it up later (Latest post: 24 Jan, 2013) I'm on Facebook jjtonerYA And Goodreads: JJ Toner A short story: www.jjtoner.net/ed.html Last edited by euclid; 10-09-2008 at 09:15 PM. Reason: typo

10-09-2008, 08:58 PM	#7188
smsarber Coming soon to a nightmare near you Requiescat In Pace Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loathe them. ~E.A. Poe Posts: 4,855	Showin' me up, huh? Good job! __________________ ~Steven Michael Sarber Fan Page "When we write we begin to taste the textures of our own mind."~Natalie Goldberg "I'm alone here, with emptiness, eagles and snow, unfriendliness chilling my body, and taunting with pictures of home."~Deep Purple Pictures of Home

10-10-2008, 04:02 AM	#7191
smsarber Coming soon to a nightmare near you Requiescat In Pace Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loathe them. ~E.A. Poe Posts: 4,855	That was why I wrote mine the way I did. Of course it wasn't a perfect example, but fitting to serve its purpose. __________________ ~Steven Michael Sarber Fan Page "When we write we begin to taste the textures of our own mind."~Natalie Goldberg "I'm alone here, with emptiness, eagles and snow, unfriendliness chilling my body, and taunting with pictures of home."~Deep Purple Pictures of Home

10-10-2008, 09:37 AM	#7192
smsarber Coming soon to a nightmare near you Requiescat In Pace Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loathe them. ~E.A. Poe Posts: 4,855	Hey Uncle Jim, do you remember the book I was working on a year and a half ago, "The Silvertone"? It's set in New Hampshire, and you gave me some tips on it. I'm doing a complete rewrite of it, and was wondering if there is a place I can find out a more accurate depiction of a New England-style dialect. I mean, if it was a book set in Tennessee I might use wording like "Y'all", or "dagummit". Or maybe average American style speach is fitting. I've never been anywhere in New England, so I just don't know. __________________ ~Steven Michael Sarber Fan Page "When we write we begin to taste the textures of our own mind."~Natalie Goldberg "I'm alone here, with emptiness, eagles and snow, unfriendliness chilling my body, and taunting with pictures of home."~Deep Purple Pictures of Home

10-10-2008, 06:02 PM	#7193
Yeshanu Elf Queen Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Up a Tree Posts: 6,668	I'd suggest that you advertise on the boards for a beta reader who comes from New England, and ask that person to comment on the reality of the dialogue. You might also look up a few movies set in New England, and analyze them for dialogue. __________________ Ruth's Adventures in Wonderland Guelph mourns as we pay tribute to a fallen officer

10-10-2008, 07:33 PM	#7194
smsarber Coming soon to a nightmare near you Requiescat In Pace Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loathe them. ~E.A. Poe Posts: 4,855	Good idea, Yeshanu. I've never considered using a Beta before, mainly because I can't afford to pay someone. But it's something for consideration. I want to write the best fiction I can, I don't want my readers to feel cheated. __________________ ~Steven Michael Sarber Fan Page "When we write we begin to taste the textures of our own mind."~Natalie Goldberg "I'm alone here, with emptiness, eagles and snow, unfriendliness chilling my body, and taunting with pictures of home."~Deep Purple Pictures of Home

10-10-2008, 08:36 PM	#7195
Yeshanu Elf Queen Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Up a Tree Posts: 6,668	PAY for a beta? Read the faqs, then post here. This board has everything! __________________ Ruth's Adventures in Wonderland Guelph mourns as we pay tribute to a fallen officer Last edited by Yeshanu; 10-11-2008 at 08:44 AM. Reason: Fixed link--sorry about the cake, folks. That's mine. :)

10-10-2008, 09:09 PM	#7196
smsarber Coming soon to a nightmare near you Requiescat In Pace Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loathe them. ~E.A. Poe Posts: 4,855	I guess I was mis-informed! Thank you! __________________ ~Steven Michael Sarber Fan Page "When we write we begin to taste the textures of our own mind."~Natalie Goldberg "I'm alone here, with emptiness, eagles and snow, unfriendliness chilling my body, and taunting with pictures of home."~Deep Purple Pictures of Home

10-11-2008, 05:49 AM	#7198
Calliopenjo Esteemed thinker Join Date: May 2008 Location: In a townhouse over looking the tumble weed fields. Posts: 801	Curious question Hi guys, If I posted something here, not that i haven't done so before, about 2500 words worth would you give me an honest opinion? I went to SYW and posted there and I realize that authors are busy, sorry rambling, anyway, I seem to get only one view point over there. Wanted to know before making myself look like an idiot. __________________ Wounded I sing, tormented I indite. — Victor Herbert (1859-1924) Come visit @FiredanceBooks on Twitter. We have something coming.

10-11-2008, 08:47 AM	#7199
Yeshanu Elf Queen Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Up a Tree Posts: 6,668	Sorry about the link, folks. I didn't realized I'd linked to my birthday cake. It's fixed now. Calliopenjo, have you tried asking for crits in the SYW Starbucks thread? That often gets a few replies. __________________ Ruth's Adventures in Wonderland Guelph mourns as we pay tribute to a fallen officer

10-11-2008, 07:20 PM	#7200
smsarber Coming soon to a nightmare near you Requiescat In Pace Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Sleep... Those little slices of Death. How I loathe them. ~E.A. Poe Posts: 4,855	Thanks again. I should have looked in the Beta forum a long time ago. I have no idea what I was thinking of, but it seems like somewhere, when I first joined these boards, I read of someone paying Beta. So I never thought to look for one. __________________ ~Steven Michael Sarber Fan Page "When we write we begin to taste the textures of our own mind."~Natalie Goldberg "I'm alone here, with emptiness, eagles and snow, unfriendliness chilling my body, and taunting with pictures of home."~Deep Purple Pictures of Home

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