The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

[JennaGlatzer]

Originally Posted by Sassenach

Then. Why. Didn't. They. Do. Their. Homework?

You know what? I think they've all learned that lesson already without you having to make them feel like idiots.

And apparently you missed the part of my post where I explained that no one is expecting immediate justice, but after years of complaints, I don't think "immediate justice" could ever apply anyway.

Now, pretend this was your grandmother/aunt/old friend who just got taken by PA and has found out that her book-- the result of months or years of hard work-- will be held hostage for 7 years because she was trusting and naive instead of savvy. She already feels like a jerk because she didn't "do her research," and now she wants to warn others and help take the scammers out of business. Would you still harp on "You should have known better, and stop complaining anyway because your petty problems don't matter"?

I didn't get taken by PA. But I have enough decency to understand how awful it would feel to lose my hard work in that manner, and that stops me from rubbing people's noses in their "faults." They've figured out now that they should have done more research-- so can you be big enough to "forgive" them and help them come up with a plan for what to do next?

[mdmkay]

Yes, there are quite a few of us that only sent our mss to PA, it was accepted, we thought it was a good deal, we accepted.......and then we found out we'd made a really HUGE MISTAKE. I didn't find out about PA to be truthful until they had laid claim to my second book already........stupid or naive.........who knows but it was a hell of a hard lesson to learn, (not to mention embarrassing, darn near career ending, and expensive).

[Celia Cyanide]

Originally Posted by Johanna

I think that a lot of the people who sign with PA do so with a rather limited knowledge of the book publishing industry.

I think you're right, AND, the worst things about PA are not going to be whether or not the contract is standard in the industry. It's not stated in there that, "in the event that you terminate your contract, we will still sell your book if we feel like it. And if you ever question what we do, we will call you nasty names and treat you like a naughty child." No matter how well you had read the contract, how could you expect that from anyone? It's bizarre behavior.

PA also makes up facts about the industry. Of course, you could go check out each statistic, but that doesn't make it less wrong for PA to be making up facts. If it were me, I would probably assume, "Hey, if my book won't sell at all, why would they even want it?" From my perspective, it just doesn't seem that far-fetched for someone to think PA looks legit.

[Dawno]

Originally Posted by Sassenach

I suggested people do a bit of work and go to the library. There's information on contracts there.

I'm on no one's 'side'. Asking questions doesn't make me a PA partisan. I'm also hoping that if any potential PA'ers read this thread, they'll take my advice.

Perhaps Jaws or Jim will weigh in on this but haven't you read the dozens of posts where it is made clear that only an attorney with solid credentials in literary representation could point out all the flaws with that contract? No average person doing library research in a public library would get one bit of help. They probably wouldn't get help in a law library. Attorney friends of PA authors who specialize in commercial contracts *have* gone over the PA contract and said it looked pretty standard to them. So if they didn't get it, how is Aunt Sue at the local library going to get it?

I did.

As I have stated before, to a nonliterary lawyer there wasn't that much in the PA contract that was different enough, or unusual enough, to raise a red flag. The seven years? There wasn't any specific time period mentioned in my other contracts, just some wording about 'going out of print,' and the rights revert back.

PA said their titles were stocked in bookstores, and featured by Wal-Mart, Barnes and Noble, etc., etc. Why wouldn't I believe them? I didn't go down to my local Barnes and Noble to check out whether John Wiley & Sons' books were stocked. They're a publisher, that's how publishers make their money, by selling books through, as in stocked, bookstores. It never occurred to me that PA would misrepresent such a basic fact.

Look, here's the thing. If you read information looking for a scam, just about any website has verbiage that could be considered suspect. If you read information from an objective viewpoint, you don't necessarily come to the same conclusion. If you don't expect to be scammed, wording such as 'available in bookstores,' means you can walk into a bookstore and find the title. Much like you see a TV ad that says 'available in drugstores,' you expect to go into the drugstore and find the product.

But if you suspect a scam, "available in bookstores," takes on another meaning.

I am not stupid, I am not naive, I am not uneducated. Should I have known better than to sign a contract with PA? No. There wasn't anything outrageous enough for me to say, 'geez I'd have to be desperate to sign with this company.'

Did I try other publishers before PA? No. Only one major publishing house had requested the full manuscript (I met the editor at a writers’ conference). I hadn't queried any other publishers. Three agencies (legit medium size agencies) had the full manuscript. On the day we got the offer from PA, we also received a rejection from the major publisher, and from one of the agents.

Now, you all will have to excuse me for awhile, I have a new idea for a book and I have to finish the proposal. Actually there are three new book ideas, so I am going to be really busy. And a new novel to work on. If you don't see me posting that's why.

I hope all of you have a terrific Halloween. Fight the good fight, don't give up on yourselves. Remember PA publishes a good book as fast as they publish a bad book.

HEY PA TROLLS. You better watch your back.

Dee

Over Time, Money, Love and Football, all the important things in life.
http://www.OverTimeTheNovel.com

[Birol]

Sassenach, why do you believe the victims are at fault?

[CaoPaux]

Back in high school, I was a great believer in the deluge of "you may have already won!" stuff I got in the mail. I got huffy when my parents raised their eyebrows at me buying stuff, and it took me a while to decipher just what the fine print was telling me. The final time I was scammed was when I fell for a "$$$ for stuffing envelopes form home" after I graduated. The mechanics of that clued me in on the psychology of scammers, and I haven't been taken since. Yet I know people who are my age now are taken every day. Are they stupid? Maybe, but more likely they didn't learn/weren't taught the necessary discernment techniques and/or TNSTAAFL in their youth.

PA knows who/what their target demographic is, and they rake them in by the hundreds. Some recognize the scam sooner than others; some are able to move on, some aren't. We can only warn those who look for warnings and, if they're taken anyway, we can only help those who want to be helped.

[Sparhawk]

I'm one of those PA authors WHO. DIDN'T. DO. THEIR. HOMEWORK. Do I blame other PA'ers? No. I blame the guy I see in the mirror every morning.

Having said that let me elaborate just a bit. I read the contract several times and surfed their 2003 website. PA claimed to be a lot more than they actually were. I had ZERO experience in the publishing industry. "HYBRID" was my first full length novel and I admit to beleiving that PA was everything that they said they were. "Why would they lie?" I stupidly asked myself.

Their contract is very misleading and can be interpreted to mean several different things depending upon the intent of the reader, particularly the paragraphs pertaining to promotion, bookstore placement and being available for media events. After my mistake, I sat down with a lawer versed in publishing; he read the contract and pointed out the misleading verbage and how and why I was decieved. It didn't make me feel any better, but I realized where I had been fooled and was now smarter from the experience. The contract is worded they way it's worded for a reason. The document is deliberatly vague in certain clauses and paragraphs to enable PA to do absolutely nothing with my book while still claiming to meet every part of their contractual obligations (which is still a bunch of cow poop) I suggest you take some time, read an old PA contract in the mindset of a new writer excited to have an opportunity to see your work published and then reread the document as a snake oil salesman looking to deceive somebody. There are two interpretations.

Hey, I was taken, I was naive and bought the pitch; shame on me. Have I learned my lesson? Hell Yeah!! BUt I don't need someone telling me how I didn't do my homework over and over again. I get the point and don't need to be told, continuously, by some anonymous spectre on a message board who hasn't experienced the anguish and embarassment of Publish America. You've more than made your point, let it go.

[James D. Macdonald]

Calmy, everyone.


It's true that anyone who reads the PA contract from the baseline assumption that PA is a "traditional" publisher can't read it correctly.

[Sparhawk]

Originally Posted by James D. Macdonald

Calmy, everyone.


It's true that anyone who reads the PA contract from the baseline assumption that PA is a "traditional" publisher can't read it correctly.

Just popped a tranq.

[DaveKuzminski]

I have stated it before and I will state it again. There are a great many people who do not even know where to start to do research, let alone know how. This does not make them stupid or lazy. They might even ask others if the neighborhoods they lived in had someone with the knowledge to answer the questions they might ask if they even knew what questions to ask. However, not everyone lives next door to a published author or an editor or a publisher and not everyone possesses that knowledge.

Even though the Internet is no longer new, there are many people who are new to it. As well, there are not that many sites on the Internet that are well known. Amazon.com is well known, but when you and your friends first got on, did you know about Absolute Write? Did you know about PublishAmerica? Did you know about Writer Beware or P&E? Yet these last two are among the oldest sites dealing with writing on the Internet. The point I'm making here is that all of these names have required time to make their reputations known. Some, such as PA, made their reputations early, but the common knowledge about them still didn't get widespread very quickly despite the quickness of data over the Internet. And if you think this is bad now, just think about how much slower it was before the Internet when there were just as many scams floating about within the print world and even less information shared with writers about who to avoid.

The key to all of this is sharing the information, not assessing blame on the victims. The system as it stands now is in the throes of change that will eventually favor the good guys much more than the scammers. But until that point is reached, we must remember that people fall for scams only because the scams contain just enough truth to appear reasonable to people without enough knowledge. It is up to us to spread that knowledge and enlist them in shutting down the scams.

[Cathy C]

I think it's VERY important to note what DeePower and Dawno said here. My background is in law. I'm a career paralegal with lots of letters behind my name and specialist certificates on the wall in both contracts and intellectual property (copyright, trademark, patent). It took me THREE times through the PA contract to discern the traps. This was after I'd been told there WAS a trap. Here are some of the problems.

The difference between available and stocked. To the average layperson, and even those in regular contract law, these two words have the same meaning. Not so in entertainment law! An available book can be ordered from the publisher if the bookseller has an agreement with that publisher (or one of their distributors or wholesalers), but is not on the shelf or in a warehouse. A stocked book is on the shelf, or at least in a warehouse somewhere. Of course, this is one of the more important distinctions with a PA book. It's available, but not stocked, and PA has few, if any, agreements with booksellers, distributors and wholesalers. Why? Because the books can't be returned. That's what a publisher/bookseller agreement IS. So, the bookstores CAN'T order it. But the contract will give no clue of this.

Promotion at the discretion of the publisher is another big problem with the PA contract, but it's not obvious even to those educated in contracts. The wording implies that the publisher will promote the works of the author. And why wouldn't they? The goal is to earn money. That's what publishers DO! Even a seasoned contract attorney would dismiss this phrase as a way for the publisher not to specify a particular dollar amount they intend to spend, so the author doesn't expect that "$2,000 will be spent on promotion of this book." It's slightly slanted toward the publisher, but not onerous. However, in a PA contract, since the publisher has no intention of doing ANY promotion -- to distributors, to booksellers, to the public -- then the wording takes on a malicious quality that a reasonable and prudent person wouldn't get.

I won't even get into the seven year deal. It would be annoying in a regular contract, but if PA was doing a good job in their DUTIES as a publisher, it wouldn't really matter all that much. It's only when seen through the light of their failures to perform that it has any malicious meaning.

See, research on a PA contract is only good so long as you're looking at the contract from the angle of suspicion, which 99.99% of PA authors aren't doing. After all, the goal of both author and publisher in a NORMAL situation is complimentary. "Let's sell us some books!" It's only when one side is walking into the deal with bad intentions "Let's let YOU buy some books!" will the real meaning behind the words become clear.

Just my take.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Originally Posted by CaoPaux

The final time I was scammed was when I fell for a "$$$ for stuffing envelopes form home" after I graduated.

You too? For me, it was a "$$$ in college scholarships lying around unclaimed! Get yours!" And I came very close to mailing a check to National Poetry Library or somesuch nonsense. Wised up in time. But only barely.

The only reason I wasn't vulnerable to scammers like PA was, my high school's English department featured two published authors, and I took a creative writing workshop with them. They taught me how the industry works. My first paid publication was a short story I wrote while in their class.

The reason we get taken in is, our paradigm hasn't shifted yet. We all carry around inside of us this Venn diagram, this instinctual sense of what exists and what doesn't. The idea of a scammy contest that makes tons of money by pushing you to buy the book with your poem in it, or a scammy vanity publisher who doesn't care at all about your book--for many of us, that falls into the circle labeled "nonexistent." We have to go through a sort of paradim shift to even acknowledge that there can be such things in the universe. Then we have to realize that not only can they be, they are. Finally we realize that not only do they exist, we're looking at them.

I have a bunch of landmarks in my personal timeline, moments when I realized things existed that I hadn't realized existed before. People who don't care if their actions hurt you--that one surprised me as a small child. Until then, I'd gone around telling people "when you do that it makes me sad" and expecting them to care, because it didn't occur to me that anyone wouldn't. Christian denominations that deny another denominations their validity--it floored me, the first time I ran into a Baptist who told me why my Catholic family were all going to hell. Weirded me out. That exists? People who think that way really exist? And, of course, the aforementioned "publishers" who "accept" your manuscript only so that they can sell it back to you. I had no idea that was possible.

What if someone not only doesn't realize that scammy publishers exist, but also has no idea that there are publishers who'd pay you for the right to publish your fiction, rather than expecting you to pay them?

That someone is PA's exact target.

We remove the target by spreading around the information needed to shift people's paradigms--not by ridiculing them for not having come into the world street smart and savvy from the womb onward.

[NancyMehl]

Originally Posted by Sassenach

I suggested people do a bit of work and go to the library. There's information on contracts there.

I'm on no one's 'side'. Asking questions doesn't make me a PA partisan. I'm also hoping that if any potential PA'ers read this thread, they'll take my advice.

Some of us signed with PA because another author recommended them. (Someone I respected.) I queried PA before I signed - and their answer to me was misleading if not an outright lie. I also had someone who was supposed to be an expert look over their contract. I was told it was pretty standard. Not knowing much about literary contracts, I took their word for it.

It's easy to tell us all now that "you" wouldn't have been taken in - but "you" have no idea what we did or didn't do - or even what you would have chosen had you been in our situation "back then."

This brings up another point: I signed my contract in 2000 or 2001. The kind of evidence against PA that is available now wasn't available then. Maybe people have less of an excuse now - but we also have the "cheerleading squad" that champions the cause of PA while denouncing the malcontents who spew out lies because of jealousy or personal failure. This kind of garbage can sway an author who is teetering on the edge of the PA abyss.

I think it is better to help those we can help than to say things that make authors, already feeling stupid and naive, feel even more ridiculous for falling into the PA trap.

Just my two cents...

Nancy

[astonwest]

Originally Posted by AnnaWhite

Sassenach, that bad feeling/gut feeling came AFTER signing the contract, when it was too late.

My first feeling of nausea came when I received my proofs back, and they looked identical to the draft I'd sent in. Not only had I not had any changes made to the manuscript, but I was expecting an editor to work with me to make the story better. Oops...

The second feeling came when I received my cover art and saw $16.95 plastered on it. Since I'd already seen the proofs, I already knew how many pages the book was going to be. That was when I started inquiring, and the downhill slide started.

(I think that may be one of the reasons they don't put the price of the book on the cover anymore)

[JohnJStephens]

It took me THREE times through the PA contract to discern the traps.

Good that you say that, as you have the qualifications. It should help dispel the notion that PA are just some form of fly-by-night con-artists. They are far more sophisticated than that.

When PA implodes, as it surely will, and Willem Meiners runs off to the Spanish sun, everyone here will be congratulating themselves for 'seeing off PA'. But Meiners has certainly done his sums in advance. He's probably raking in about a million dollars a year, and I'll bet that he feels very, very happy with that. He probably reckons that, by the time the balloon goes up, he will have netted five million or so, plenty enough to retire in comfort AND fly his whirly-bird around for as long as he wishes.

Ending PA, but letting the big three get off scot free, will be a failure. The only satisfactory outcome is to stuff PA *and* take out the three f*ckers on a personal level. Nothing less will do.

Yes it's me again. Boy I'm going to get ripped again (I know I'm asking for it), but now that we are on the subject of the writers that have gone with PA I have something to say.



First I want to say this clearly I DO NOT THINK IT IS RIGHT FOR SOMEONE TO GO WITH PA AND THINK THEY ARE LIKE EVERY OTHER PUBLISHER. I DO NOT THINK IT IS RIGHT THAT THE COMPANY HAS SET ITSELF UP THAT WAY. I do not want to blame those people for expecting more and getting much less. If I'm thinking Random House and I get Lulu I'm upset. I very much understand this.



Everyone here thinks that I didn't read the post on the board, but I've read many many of them. I've done a lot of research here not just on this board but into the backgrounds of the people on this board. There are few writers here that went with PA and did well with their NEXT book AFTER PA. Others did not. From what I've seen from the way those successful writers have continued after leaving PA, through advertisements and promotions, I think it is directly connected to the way the succeeded. Other writers seem to have thrown out the baby with the bath water. This is why I was saying “be proud of your books.” I differ with the board on this, but I think we can all point to writers on this board that did well after going with PA. I'm not going to argue that going with PA helped or hurt them. I'm just going to say that the way they went on made the difference.



I, again, DO NOT THINK IT IS RIGHT THEY WENT IN THINKING ONE THING AND GETTING ANOTHER. There are success stories of writers that have gone with PA. I'm not saying it is because of PA NOT AT ALL. It is because of those writers.



I think that in attacking the publisher here sometimes the people that have gone with them get hurt. I know that others do not agree with this, and yes I know it is important to get the word out there about what PA is really doing. There is fine line here. The people that have gone with PA have a book now bad or good. The more savvy ones have done a lot with those books.



Dee you are in this group. I understand that you are very POed at PA, but you have gone on to other things. Some of other writers seem defeated and so utterly discouraged they do not seem to want to go on in writing. This should never happen.



I feel like I’m about to be attacked here, but I can take that. The point is I’ve seen PA books on websites of some writers here that are posted right beside their second book (published by another publisher). I think that says something about the writer. They are making the best of what has happened. I think those PA authors that have hit a wall need all the help they can get. I’m willing to help anyone on this board in anyway I can.


To repeat, just in case, anyone that went with PA should not be blamed! If it is set up to fool people? and it fools people it's not their fault. No matter how much research you do sometimes you going to get burned period.

[JohnJStephens]

Boy I'm going to get ripped again (I know I'm asking for it)

Not at all. I simply want you to take a message to your master...

When Willem Meiners set up his little PA-scam he calculated everything down to the last detail. He set up the scam, but he was not so stupid as not to realize that it would all end one day. But as long as he was putting money away, who cares?

The fact that he could feed his massive ego by preying on aspiring authors, was icing on the cake.

But he made one very serious mistake. He revealed, in his autobiography, that he suddenly left The Netherlands 'to pursue his dreams elsewhere'. Now, maybe that's the truth, but for a few people this raised an immediate red flag. People do not normally jump ship without ample preparation in advance, unless they are in a hurry to leave.

The result is that Meiners is undergoing considerable scrutiny in the Netehrlands. His last address in The Netherlands has been identified, and discrete house to house enquiries are currently taking place. With one simple objective: why did Meiners leave in such a hurry?

If it turns out that his autobiography was correct, then Meiners has nothing to fear. But I will not pretend that it is agreeable for him, sitting in Frederick, to know that people are sniffing round his roots. Isn't life a b*tch?

Sweet dreams, Willem...

And for other forum members, please...

DON'T FEED THE F*CKING TROLL

[JennaGlatzer]

Egem, I don't think you'll get attacked for anything you just said-- I think you're totally on the right track.

There's a lot of advice given on this thread, and it seems to boil down to this:

-Don't buy your own books. Don't play into PA's game by letting them profit off scamming you.

-Once you realize you've been mislead/taken in by PA, do what you can to warn others and help yourself. Don't slink away quietly; take action. Write letters to people in authority, make phone calls, talk to a lawyer, alert the media; warn your fellow writers by writing articles, posting blogs, posting on message boards, etc.

-Learn more about how real publishing works so you'll know how to avoid traps like these next time. Read advice from the pros here, as well as in books and articles. Ask questions. Join writers' associations. There's a lot to learn about the publishing world, and you can never know too much.

-Keep writing. While you may have to wait 7 years to get your PA book back, that shouldn't stop you from moving on and starting your writing career in earnest. You're right that there are successes after PA-- and I'd love to see more of them.

It bothers me that PA could get anyone down enough to quit writing. Egem, I think we're on the same page there. I don't think anyone (er, except maybe Sassenach) wants people to feel bad about their books, or to beat themselves up over a bad decision. There's a balance to be struck between spending mental energy being pissed off at PA and spending that energy moving on and writing even better books. Sometimes it takes people time to find that balance.

[JennaGlatzer]

OK, I was wrong.

John and others: I know who egem is. Egem does not work for PA. Just thought you should know.

And John, I love the avenues you're exploring here. I've always been curious about the same things, but never knew how to find out more.

[latichever]

I don't know what the information situation was like about PA several years ago in 2001. I do think it would be hard not to find sufficient negative information today. I came across PA earlier this year and read their web page. It sounded good. I did wonder why I hadn't heard of them before, but a google search on Publish America told me all I needed to know. I think you would really have to have a strong and blinding will to believe in PA today to ignore what's out there.

[NicoleJLeBoeuf]

Originally Posted by egem

Yes it's me again. Boy I'm going to get ripped again (I know I'm asking for it)....

I feel like I’m about to be attacked here, but I can take that....

Oh, wait, did you say "B-5"? I think I got a Bingo!

That aside, egem, it sounds like you're moving in a good direction. Your offers to help are appreciated, I'm sure, as are your pleas that PA authors not get put in front of the same firing squad as PA themselves.

However, watch that you don't let PA off the hook for the sake of sparing the PA authors. You do those trapped in PA's duplicitous contract no good thereby.

[roach]

It strikes me that there is a fundamental aspect of PA that often gets missed in the are they or aren't they to blame (they being PA authors).

PA lies. They lie on their website, in their contract, on the message boards, in the e-mails. Some people use the term "weasel wording" when discussing this, and I think that tends to give the impression that if PA authors just educated themselves they would have known the secret formula used to decipher the code.

Instead, until one compares the contract to what actually happens, there's no way to know that PA is lying. By then it's too late.

One might--might--be able to make the case that those who sign with PA now should have done a routine check and found this site and known better. To do so, however, requires that all humanity become less trusting than it is right now, and I'm not so sure that would be an improvement.

[priceless1]

Originally Posted by Sassenach

Then. Why. Didn't. They. Do. Their. Homework? Before I signed a SEVEN year contract, I would check out, at the very least, if this was standard in the book publishing industry.

Sassenach, let's pretend that writers signed knowing exactly what PA was in terms of having to sell their own books. Let's even go further out on a limb and say that they realized PA would retail their books at least five to ten dollars above market. If this were the end of the story, I don't think this thread would be as lengthy as it is.

This has to do with verbal abuse by the principal owners, noncompliance in editing disagreements, shoddy cover design, lying about how books would be stocked on bookstore shelves, marketing, returnability, and illegally selling books after the author has recieved the rights to their books.

These issues are now being brought to light, but in the not so distant past, these details didn't dominate the 'Net. People didn't have the luxury of the lovingly nauseating Atlanta Nights. PA hadn't threatened people late at night or turned their authors over to the FBI on trumped up charges. They hadn't bandied author's phone numbers and hometowns to the general public.

These were all things that many found out after they signed. To ridicule someone for bad judgement is disingenuous. Do you ridicule a battered woman for making a poor choice in marriage? I hope not. Life isn't always black and white. Perhaps a bit of empathy would carry you a bit further.

In the long run, it's PA that's the rotten egg so why spend your time beating the authors over the head? It isn't anything they haven't done to themselves already. Your continuing to point this out only serves to rip off a scab. Or was that your point all along?

[TracySutterer & GaryRogers]

When I wrote my Memoir: Computer-End Program, I thought that it would benefit society by exposing the inadequate programs that serve the homeless in New York City. The book is supremely relevant today as there are individuals stuck in shelters all over the United States due to recent hurricanes.

When the Memoir was printed by PublishAmerica, I had hoped that it would be read by politicians and my experiences would assist local State governments to make significant changes. However, due to the high price of the book, no return policy and absolutely no marketing by PublishAmerica the book remains in limbo.

PublishAmerica claims to now have a return policy - I have contacted Borders / Barnes & Noble, and my book still remains not returnable. It is sad when a book is returned to a bookstore for numerous reasons. Yet, at least the book was purchased with the option of being returned.

The urge to write has diminished significantly due to my affiliation with PublishAmerica. It takes a great deal of discipline to sit your butt to write a book, edit, and go through the process of publication. I had thought that all my efforts in that venture would facilitate a book that would be shelved and purchased by the general public. At the time of this writing, I feel that all my efforts were a complete waste of time.

I am very discouraged and depressed that PublishAmerica has been delinquent in its responsibility to market and promote my book through catalogues that are normally sent out to bookstores by respected publishing houses.

In addition, I kick myself in the butt every time my mind reflects back to the moment the contract was signed and sent back to PublishAmerica to get the process started. Had the information about PublishAmerica been available on the Web concerning their operation at the time the contract was received, I would have not signed it.

Hindsight is 20/20. Oh, well. Life goes on.

Argile Stox