I was wondering when one writes a story and make a comparison to one object from the fiction to an object the reader may know. Should one avoid using objects that don't exist in that world, society, or time?
When describing things to the reader ...
- Thread starter AndreF
- Start date
- Status
Depends on what you're doing. If the characters in that world makes comparisons with things the reader doesn't know, fine--but I wouldn't put weight behind it. More like a matter of speech. If the narrator from that world does, again, no weight. But if the narrator knows of both worlds, I see no reason why they should make a comparison that's not helping the reader.
That's a good point. In a sense I've "visited" that other world and should be able to tell the story using things the reader may or should know about.
If I understand this correctly - you're asking about a comparison, in the story, referring to things that couldn't exist in that story, or that the characters wouldn't know about, such as a medieval POV character referring to a storm roaring like a jet engine, or a story set in the far-flung interstellar future comparing an alien structure to the Empire State Building.
To me, that wouldn't fly. It would kick me clean out of the story. Unless you'd somehow established that the narrator of this medieval tale knew about jet engines (they're supposed to be a time traveler, maybe, or some sort of god or demon who transcends the bounds of worlds or times - or, in the case of the ESB, noting that one of your characters was an enthusiast of ancient Earth architecture... in which case, he/she may have to explain the reference to other characters), it would be jarring. Even in omni-third.
You might have to dig a little deeper to find an appropriate in-world reference, or describe it in a way that gets the image across (the storm could roar like a lion, and that alien tower rises to a point, lit about the top with bright lights, for a couple quick bad examples) but doing so makes for richer worldbuilding.
To me, that wouldn't fly. It would kick me clean out of the story. Unless you'd somehow established that the narrator of this medieval tale knew about jet engines (they're supposed to be a time traveler, maybe, or some sort of god or demon who transcends the bounds of worlds or times - or, in the case of the ESB, noting that one of your characters was an enthusiast of ancient Earth architecture... in which case, he/she may have to explain the reference to other characters), it would be jarring. Even in omni-third.
You might have to dig a little deeper to find an appropriate in-world reference, or describe it in a way that gets the image across (the storm could roar like a lion, and that alien tower rises to a point, lit about the top with bright lights, for a couple quick bad examples) but doing so makes for richer worldbuilding.
And that's the other thing I was thinking about too. I don't even have may characters (because they're on another world in another time) use certain phrases that we do. Or cuss words for that matter.
Because of this ratiocination I've even ignored giving characters an accent should they come from another region. Or when it comes to how something taste I avoid saying it tastes like French Vanilla ... there is no France or any other country from Earth that's on that planet.
This is just something that I've been thinking about for a while.
I do appreciate the time you two have taken to reply with your thoughts.
As for everyone else I'm open know what your thoughts are about this.
And to make things clear.
When I write a story set in another world, or time. Should I use things from our world and time period when comparing things to the fictional world.
As stated above. Would i say it sounded like the roar of a jet engine ... when there are no jets during that time?
If you are writing in first person or limited third, no, don't do it. It would be very jarring to be in a limited third or first person pov (which is supposed to reflect the knowledge of the pov character) if it's set in a pre-industrial fantasy world, and to have the narrative say something sounds like a jet engine, or to tell us that someone has gone off the rails (if trains don't exist), or that someone was no Einstein (when there is no such person in that time or place) and so on. In limited third, the author as narrator is not supposed to intrude on the story with their separate perceptions and reality.
In omniscient, it really depends on who your omni narrator is. If he or she is someone from our time and place, telling a story about another time or place (like CS Lewis or JRR Tolkien did), it can work.
That style of "avuncular" omniscient (where the narrator may even break the fourth wall and address the reader from time to time) is less common that it once was, though, outside of children's stories. Note that when writing in secondary or historical settings, there will probably always be things that slip in, and readers have different tolerances. You get to decide where you line is for words and concepts that translate to something equally relevant in your world and ones that are simply too jarring.
Example: The word "spartan" might trip a lot of alarms with reasonably well-informed readers, if the term is used in a world or setting where Sparta has never existed. But how about laconic? Fewer people are consciously aware that this word also has a historic antecedent. Narrative depth within limited third will also influence your decisions. If you're writing in the style of third, whether it's for a given scene, or for the whole novel, where you are striving to immerse the reader in the pov character's "here and now," then you get less latitude with anachronistic words or concepts, even in the narrative.
Here are some links to articles on this topic.
http://fantasy-faction.com/2014/the-fantasy-language-problem
http://fantasy-faction.com/2014/the-fantaasy-language-problem-continued
http://fantasy-faction.com/2014/character-immersion-and-the-narrative-voice
Last edited:
As for avoiding accents and regional eccentricities altogether... actually, plenty of specfic authors can and do invent these things, often basing them on Earth cultures with some tweaking. People tend to regionalize; different areas develop different accents and phrases, maybe even different customs. Your residents of New Mars might have had, say, a heavy North African ancestry, and even far in the future a few cultural and language peculiarities survive - just as our modern culture and language has plenty of obsolete carryover from earlier times. (Though in his Ringworld books, Larry Niven had one of his characters bemoan Earth's growing homogenization due to instant-transport booths; all the major cities looked like all the other major cities, talking the same and eating the same food and listening to the same music, and the uniqueness of cultures was going extinct now that everyone could just pop from Paris to Hong Kong in an instant. If you establish that technology has made regionalisms obsolete, it could work for your world.)
tom1172821
Registered
I find this question a lot in fantasy/sci-fi, and think balance is key. Obviously you are writing for an audience of people who live in this place and time. Simply using the english language contradicts the idea that the setting of your piece is in a different place/time.
As for phrases, be careful. I once used a jargonistic term from Baseball in my fantasy setting, and it took someone beta-ing it to point it out. For some readers, that would totally ruin the immersion.
However, be creative. Invent cusses that fit the society. In my fantasy novel, i've invented a the curse "Purge" which refers to a religious, historical event. Use the opportunity to add depth to your world (but don't overdo it. I still use all the standard cusses mainly because... well, when a character cusses, it's normally to express an explosion of emotion and energy, and i don't want to tamper that energy by watering down it's strength over the course of translation).
Good, because "French Vanilla" would stand out like a sore thumb (in a setting where no one has thumbs) to me.
As for the accents, maybe one guy does speak with an accent because he finds the culture bland and is over compensating - maybe that's a basis for a character, or even an entire sub-culture where everyone tries to speak with a unique accent but all end up talking like each other - maybe that's a metaphor for punk sub-culture right there!
*deep breath* But yeah - the point i'm trying to make is that you can often take advantage of these things. Learn to embrace the alien setting of your fictional world.
There's no black or white answer. Use what you must, and change the rest. Consider the implications of things like cuss words to your writing.
Oh - and consider the Person; 1st or 3rd. If in 1st person, it'd kill your voice outright to have, say, a caveman go "that bird looked as big as a plane". Like... yeah? That'd kill it for me.
OMG! Isn't that exactly what the ninth Dr said to Rose when she asked if he had a northern accent?? MirandaShell - help me out here...
Andre, you really should try using commonsense to resolve these issues.
Your reader has to understand what he is reading but at the same time you don't want to deliberately yank him out of the atmosphere or setting in which you have placed him. If the reference you wish to make is obviously way out of context, don't use it.
Your reader has to understand what he is reading but at the same time you don't want to deliberately yank him out of the atmosphere or setting in which you have placed him. If the reference you wish to make is obviously way out of context, don't use it.
Last edited:
What books have you read that were set in another world and time, and which you thought used good comparisons?
I don't understand this. Why shouldn't they have a different accent?
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2008
- Messages
- 6,137
- Reaction score
- 694
Pratchett freely compares things in the Discworld to things in our world. That works for his style of writing. I remember one novella I read that kept describing someone as behaving like a detective, yet in their world there were no detectives--as became apparent when a murder was committed. So that jarred me a lot. But that novella won serious SF prizes, so what do I know?
Do what works for your story. If you want to keep everything within the world you've created, I think that's a good idea. Outside comparisons need to be handled carefully, and to fit with your style.
Do what works for your story. If you want to keep everything within the world you've created, I think that's a good idea. Outside comparisons need to be handled carefully, and to fit with your style.
Bearing in mind that general rules can be broken if you really know what you're doing, I think it's a good general rule not to refer to things in historical/prehistorical fiction that the characters in it wouldn't know about.
I follow this rule writing fiction set in the palaeolithic era, and I'm pretty strict about it, as in it's not just about what words I use for descriptions, I also avoid expressions containing words/concepts the characters wouldn't know about. For example "you reap what you sow" (blatant reference to agriculture) and "a minute" (minutes are a comparatively modern way of measuring time).
Ultimately, go with what works for you and what sounds right. There are examples of writers who break this rule and still make it work.
I follow this rule writing fiction set in the palaeolithic era, and I'm pretty strict about it, as in it's not just about what words I use for descriptions, I also avoid expressions containing words/concepts the characters wouldn't know about. For example "you reap what you sow" (blatant reference to agriculture) and "a minute" (minutes are a comparatively modern way of measuring time).
Ultimately, go with what works for you and what sounds right. There are examples of writers who break this rule and still make it work.
Any rule can be broken if the final result is something good to read. However, for an example that's not, Chris Claremont's 'Shadow Moon' had one scene where an argument was described in terms of a tennis ball being hit back and forth, which being set in a fantasy world with nothing even approaching tennis, made my engagement with the narrative break off with the proverbial record scratch.
My setting is based on a fictional planet, though it does bare slight resemblance to Earth. For example: my city called Jefferson City is loosely based off of Washington D.C.; it's located on the east coast of Frostfall--one of my nations. Petersburg is loosely based off of Hollywood and is located on the west side of Frostfall. The character lives in the south however she use to live in Bridgeport in the nation of Greyfall. (Loosely based off of London, England)
The MC is noted of having a Greyfallian accent. The people around her have a Southern accent or a Northern accent. In America, we say people have a Northern or Southern accent. We might say someone has a Russian accent; French; German; Canadian.
In your story you don't need to explain what the accents sound like--the characters will know and the readers can imagine it. The most you can do that would be fine is "spell" out an accent. Example: "Are ye goin' ta t'e store later?" (Though doing that can get annoying after a while) Otherwise, saying a person has an accent of [insert nationality here] is suffice.
If it's a different planet with no links to Earth, eating French toast; French fries; French vanilla ice cream etc. is obviously out-of-context. Just say "toast", "fries"; "vanilla" etc. Or insert your own made-up nationality. If the story doesn't have jet planes, don't reference jet planes. Be careful of guns or other inventions named after people who are not known or do not exist in your world. Example: Colt Revolver (After Samuel Colt); Remington (After Eliphalet Remington); AK47 (After Kalashnikov) Diesel engine/fuel (After Rudolf Diesel); Doppler Radar (After Christian Doppler); Bloomers (After Amelia Bloomer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_named_after_people
Basically just use common sense.
The MC is noted of having a Greyfallian accent. The people around her have a Southern accent or a Northern accent. In America, we say people have a Northern or Southern accent. We might say someone has a Russian accent; French; German; Canadian.
In your story you don't need to explain what the accents sound like--the characters will know and the readers can imagine it. The most you can do that would be fine is "spell" out an accent. Example: "Are ye goin' ta t'e store later?" (Though doing that can get annoying after a while) Otherwise, saying a person has an accent of [insert nationality here] is suffice.
If it's a different planet with no links to Earth, eating French toast; French fries; French vanilla ice cream etc. is obviously out-of-context. Just say "toast", "fries"; "vanilla" etc. Or insert your own made-up nationality. If the story doesn't have jet planes, don't reference jet planes. Be careful of guns or other inventions named after people who are not known or do not exist in your world. Example: Colt Revolver (After Samuel Colt); Remington (After Eliphalet Remington); AK47 (After Kalashnikov) Diesel engine/fuel (After Rudolf Diesel); Doppler Radar (After Christian Doppler); Bloomers (After Amelia Bloomer)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_inventions_named_after_people
Basically just use common sense.
Last edited:
You're absolutely correct. I will refrain from asking such questions like this in the future.
Last edited:
Just ignore Bufty, professional grump as he is.
Ask the questions that you want answers to, and if people only respond to tell you to, basically, shut up and stop posting...
That's why we have the report button.
This question isn't even all that bad; I'm sure I remember seeing it asked a couple of times in the past, with similar results.
More to do with the accent question, in writing a fanfic last year, I ended up having to contrast one character's (imagined by me, at least) French accent in direct contrast to the normal scandiwegian accents around her.
I went with something like describing the floating and flowing syllables.
You don't have to necessarily inspire in the reader exactly what you imagine, rather the general idea behind what you imagine. One description will invoke as many separate imaginings are there are readers who read it.
This would have been an interesting topic of discussion, but the usual self-pity turned me off.
I hope other people are able to help you.
Yes, I agree that it would. If it's in a limited third or first-person viewpoint (not omniscient with a narrator who is clearly telling the story from the perspective of looking into the fantasy world from ours), it would knock me out to see a reference to a country the pov character couldn't possibly know about.
But how about, "She spoke with the clipped consonants and drawn out a's of someone from Gorderland," or something like that? A way to toss a bit of flavor and world building in too.
Honestly, Andre, some of your questions make me wonder how much you read fantasy novels that have been written in the recent past. Really, some of the best advice I can give is to revisit some of your favorite authors and see the myriad of ways they handle these kinds of things and decide if any of them (or some combination of techniques, even) might work for you.
If you start these threads more for the purpose of engendering discussion about some of the techniques that are use by fantasy writers, that's great. But there's a way to preface your opening post that makes it clear that this is your purpose (such as, "I notice that some fantasy writers like Pratchett and Tolkien will pull real-world references into their narrative, while other writers don't. When do you think it works to use a style like Pratchett's, and when do you think it's jarring?")
Just my thoughts on why some posters get a bit impatient at times. There is nothing wrong with the questions or topics in of themselves, it's just the way you phrase them sometimes. As if you expect a definitive answer to something that obviously exists on a continuum in terms of both people's taste and in terms of what's been successful in published fiction.
Last edited:
I'm sorry to see that I turned you off. Thank you for taking the time to let me know that.
I will work better in the future not let usual things from happening.
Even though with all the stress I'm under these days does make me forget things that I read years ago.
But once again thank you so much for your time let me know that. It means a lot to know that I'm screwing things up constantly. Wait was that self pitty? Or me being aware that I'm screwing stuff up and not liking it?
Here's an interesting question if I annoy you so much why do you bother reading my post and then typing something to that affect?
Oh it's that damn AndreF rambling about something stupid. Here let me read it. Yep something stupid. Ooh let me type something to let him know he pissed me off. I'm not going to PM it to him I'm just going to put it out in the open so others who think like me can jump on him.
Tell you what. God's honest truth. Never again will I post another question no matter how well thought anywhere on this site. Just so you and the others don't have to waist their time.
Is that cool with you? I'm sure it is.
How 'bout that for using common sense?
Last edited:
I'm going to slip in before the Hammer of the Mods falls to say yes, it certainly is.
Of course, this only raises further questions when you think about it: going by that statement, it means some do not...
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2012
- Messages
- 2,965
- Reaction score
- 433
- Location
- Godalming, England
- Website
- www.will-once.com
Hmm. Ignoring all the personal stuff, I'll try to stick to the original question...
In general terms, yes it's best to avoid comparisons with something that the narrator would not know about. Saying he was as strong as an ox could read as jarring to someone who should not know what an ox was.
But this can be taken too far. There is no point in telling me that the ooogly beast was five zargons high if I don't know what a zargon is. We can sometimes get away with this by association. If we say that someone was as ugly as an ooogly beast then the reader will usually assume that an ooogly beast is ugly.
Princess Leia calling Han a "scruffy nerf herder". What's a nerf herder? I have no idea, but I assume they have low levels of sartorial elegance.
Readers will usually accept that there is some translation going on. So it seems fine to talk about a character being two metres tall, but not that he is as tall as Brad Pitt.
We don't need to be in fantasy or science fiction for this to crop up. A narrator will generally use imagery that they know about. The main character in my current WIP has spent all her life on a small farm. So the images she uses are agricultural and natural. It is only when she moves into the city and starts to mingle with nobility that her language changes. People talk about what they know.
In general terms, yes it's best to avoid comparisons with something that the narrator would not know about. Saying he was as strong as an ox could read as jarring to someone who should not know what an ox was.
But this can be taken too far. There is no point in telling me that the ooogly beast was five zargons high if I don't know what a zargon is. We can sometimes get away with this by association. If we say that someone was as ugly as an ooogly beast then the reader will usually assume that an ooogly beast is ugly.
Princess Leia calling Han a "scruffy nerf herder". What's a nerf herder? I have no idea, but I assume they have low levels of sartorial elegance.
Readers will usually accept that there is some translation going on. So it seems fine to talk about a character being two metres tall, but not that he is as tall as Brad Pitt.
We don't need to be in fantasy or science fiction for this to crop up. A narrator will generally use imagery that they know about. The main character in my current WIP has spent all her life on a small farm. So the images she uses are agricultural and natural. It is only when she moves into the city and starts to mingle with nobility that her language changes. People talk about what they know.
I don't know about an example of using commonsense, but it's another rushed and hasty interpretation of what was supposed to be a constructive reply to your initial question.
Last edited:
- Status