Contributing to the water cooler, or just milking it?

If you read, you're qualified to critique. We don't write for other writers, we write for readers (or at least I do), so the simpler feedback from a reader's perspective is the most valuable of all.

It's hard to feel like you have something valuable to say - I know that I would feel better if I had more writing successes under my belt - but I agree with Chasing the Horizon. Readers are the most important critics.

I teach composition for my day job, and my students always hate it when we do peer reviews for the same reason - they don't feel like they have the skills/knowledge to meaningfully critique another person's writing. I'll tell you the same thing I tell them: you may not know everything about writing, but you know what you like, you know what you don't like, and you know what doesn't make sense. Communicating that info to the writer is just as important as giving him/her stylistic advice.

Me, too. I read for the advice, because I feel inadequate to offer anything. I'm a novice writer. Who's going to take anything I say seriously? I have no credentials.

I do appreciate this site, though! I've learned a hell of a lot in my short tenure here.

Hmm...It does seem like a lot of people don't feel qualified to critique. My thinking is, have you ever found any kind of media entertaining, interesting, or horrible in your life? Do you know why? If you do, you're fit to critique. Maybe I just like hearing myself talk (or the sound of my voice in my head when I type.) I love dishing out my two cents. Perhaps, I'm all alone in this slightly know-it-all camp of mine.

April Days said:

Me, too. I read for the advice, because I feel inadequate to offer anything. I'm a novice writer. Who's going to take anything I say seriously? I have no credentials.

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Doesn't matter. You're a person. Your opinions are valid.

You too, OP.

(I feel very strongly about this in all walks of life. )

April Days said:

Me, too. I read for the advice, because I feel inadequate to offer anything. I'm a novice writer. Who's going to take anything I say seriously? I have no credentials.

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Many of the discussions on AW are about story ideas and writing techniques which anyone can have a valid opinion on. Again, if you read books you can offer valuable feedback and opinions on many issues. No expertise beyond liking stories required.

There are a lot of different angles a crit can take — analytical, descriptive, corrective, prescriptive, discursi-tangential-whatthefuck-ical, etc. — but the reader response angle, where you'd read as you'd normally read and point out confusing parts & glaring mistakes & awesome parts & whatever the hell else, without worrying about making the sort of proclamations that require you to draw from "expertise" (like "doing X usually isn't a good idea"- or "the Y is flawed, so you should do Z"-type stuff), is one of the few angles that doesn't require all that much expertise to do well.

Fiender said:

... (partly because most books take at least a few chapters before I realize whether or not I like it). ...

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Shouldn't be relevant. Say you're reading a story and you encounter this line:


You don't need to know if you like the whole story in order to notice that this sentence doesn't make any fucking sense. And that it misspells 'precipice'. A lot of the things you'll point out (especially in reader-response mode) are a lot like that; they are line- or beat- or scene-level things you don't need the fuller perspective of 10,000+ words or whatever to comment on.

Next paragraph in that story:


Wait, what the hell is happening here? How did the small dog even get on top of the van? And what van (?), because two paragraphs ago, right before the Brendrick dichotomy tossed some metaphysical salad, Jessica was driving a Corolla. And what is wrong with this author?

Same deal. Sure don't need to read on to Chapter 5 where Jessica is swarmed by meth-addicted chihuahuas in order to accurately gauge what's up with that paragraph.

So go forth and crit. You need to try if you want to get better. If you end up worrying about whether your methodologies are sound or not, you can shoot me a PM after your next crit or two and I'll point out if you're doing anything insanely stupid.

I have lots of writers for friends. I value their opinions, but when I finish my current project, I'm going to be tapping into some non-writers for beta-reading and feedback. I want - nay, need - that reader's unvarnished take on things. When I put up a post in QLH, the critters didn't have my whole work to refer to - but their input helped me improve both my book and the query letter, because they had excellent outside perspective. So please crit away!

On certain other threads, I'm with the OP - there's nothing I can add that Mr. McDonald and Old Hack and Medievalist and veinglory and others haven't already said, more succinctly and perfectly than I ever could. But I'll still occasionally put a post out there from my own limited experience. It's the variety of backgrounds here that makes this place so great and keep the conversation going.

JournoWriter said:

On certain other threads, I'm with the OP - there's nothing I can add that Mr. McDonald and Old Hack and Medievalist and veinglory and others haven't already said, more succinctly and perfectly than I ever could. But I'll still occasionally put a post out there from my own limited experience. It's the variety of backgrounds here that makes this place so great and keep the conversation going.

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I wanted to pull this out and add my manual +1 and Like to this.

I am not published anything. I'm still struggling, just like many of the published authors on here struggle. When someone asks 'hey, what do you think of' or 'how would/do you deal with', even though I'm not published, I still might have valid thoughts on the matter.

This site isn't just about putting good information out there, but about keeping the conversations alive and exchanging information. You have information, in the form of experience, that can be valid in helping someone new to writing get over some hump or fear or distress. Or for offering a different perspective that is just enough to shake someone loose from their deathgrip on a previous notion that is not helping them.

We build ladders for each other to help them out of the holes they've fallen into, we switch off shovels to help each other bury or dig or whatever is needed. We have our boxes of kleenexes, rolled up newspapers for correction, gentle pillows for faffing and handy hands to pat each other on the back. Or ass. However it is that you roll....

Because all of that? That's contributing.

I'd suggest setting aside the word 'critique' (that word implies some kind of expertise) and instead use the term 'reader response'.

I'd also suggest reading Ch. 4 of "Writing Without Teachers" by Peter Elbow. This is very useful on the subject of giving and receiving feedback. I expect you can get this at your local library. If it's not directly on the shelves, most libraries can have a book delivered for you to borrow or look at.

Also, keep in mind that we repeatedly tell newcomers that critiquing others is a vital part of the learning experience. Most people putting up pieces in SYW have heard this and know they might get critiqued by people with a wide range of experience and skill. If you're unsure of yourelf, just start your critique with a line that you're new at this and to take what's useful and ignore the rest.

JournoWriter said:

On certain other threads, I'm with the OP - there's nothing I can add that Mr. McDonald and Old Hack and Medievalist and veinglory and others haven't already said, more succinctly and perfectly than I ever could. But I'll still occasionally put a post out there from my own limited experience. It's the variety of backgrounds here that makes this place so great and keep the conversation going.

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bearilou said:

I wanted to pull this out and add my manual +1 and Like to this.

<snip>

This site isn't just about putting good information out there, but about keeping the conversations alive and exchanging information. You have information, in the form of experience, that can be valid in helping someone new to writing get over some hump or fear or distress. Or for offering a different perspective that is just enough to shake someone loose from their deathgrip on a previous notion that is not helping them.

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+1 here also, on both counts.

However, that said, we don't know what will help someone else. While those more experienced can say what we'd like to say more succinctly or elegantly, it might be OUR awkward phrasing that clicks and helps someone else make the connection.

The best teachers have a habit of repeating the same information several times, using different phrases and examples because not everyone clicks on one. The more ways the information can be explained, the more chances that it'll click with someone.

That's what this is all about--getting the information to click. And you and I can't know what will click for someone else (sometimes, not even ourselves), so speak up. Without you, someone might not get the *click* they want.

Fiender said:

I don't think I'm qualified to read other people's excerpts in SYW and critique them (partly because most books take at least a few chapters before I realize whether or not I like it).

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If I notice that someone (not saying you) is asking for multiple critiques in SYW without ever having contributed to that forum by critiquing other people's work... well, it colors my opinion of that person, and will make me much less likely to comment on their excerpt or query. It's a give-and-take in there. Or at least, it's supposed to be.

JournoWriter said:

<snip>
On certain other threads, I'm with the OP - there's nothing I can add that Mr. McDonald and Old Hack and Medievalist and veinglory and others haven't already said, more succinctly and perfectly than I ever could. But I'll still occasionally put a post out there from my own limited experience. It's the variety of backgrounds here that makes this place so great and keep the conversation going.

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bearilou said:

This site isn't just about putting good information out there, but about keeping the conversations alive and exchanging information. You have information, in the form of experience, that can be valid in helping someone new to writing get over some hump or fear or distress. Or for offering a different perspective that is just enough to shake someone loose from their deathgrip on a previous notion that is not helping them.

We build ladders for each other to help them out of the holes they've fallen into, we switch off shovels to help each other bury or dig or whatever is needed. We have our boxes of kleenexes, rolled up newspapers for correction, gentle pillows for faffing and handy hands to pat each other on the back. Or ass. However it is that you roll....

Because all of that? That's contributing.

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^ Oh, yes. Definitely. It takes reminding, though; some of us tend to forget this. Thank you all for the reminder.

Just to add another voice, all types of contributions and critiques can be helpful, imo. Even if it's just an agreement with someone else, it lets the OP know more than one or two people have the same opinion.

I don't remember where/which thread, but it recently came up re SYW, where a few of the stronger voices there stated they didn't find "I would read further" type comments to be useful. For myself I disagree, it tells me a lot.

Contribute where and when you can, it does matter to the entire community as well as your own work. Some have the flexibility and focus to spend many hours each week participating and critiquing, not everyone does. Personally, I don't think that makes the less frequent poster less valuable. YMMV.

DeleyanLee said:

However, that said, we don't know what will help someone else. While those more experienced can say what we'd like to say more succinctly or elegantly, it might be OUR awkward phrasing that clicks and helps someone else make the connection.

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I want to +1 your +1. Iterative +1s.

This has definitely happened to me on several occasions. Yet one more discussion on [insert tired beat-upon subject here] and someone comes in, says something in just the right way (possibly even at just at the right time I needed to hear it, when I wasn't ready to hear it before that moment) and it all clicks into place for me.

Ari Meermans said:

^ Oh, yes. Definitely. It takes reminding, though; some of us tend to forget this. Thank you all for the reminder.

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I love this place to itty bitty pieces and want it to survive and thrive!

On the topic of just repeating what someone has already said, I think it's still valuable to post your thoughts. Repetition just means the opinion is strong enough that more than one person believes it. If you found something you didn't like while critiquing, for example, and someone else had already said they didn't like it, if you stay silent that one person's opinion is possibly just one person's opinion. But if you agree you think it's a problem, suddenly the author has two people to listen to, to weigh his options against.

There's a difference between trying to learn from critiques, and trying to please critters. The latter rarely produces sustainable results.

Anyone who has received numerous detailed critiques ought to have something to contribute to others, be it by general postings or specific critiques. It doesn't matter how many or how few comments one makes on reading someone else's submission so long as the comments are honest.

And critically reading the work of others is the best way to learn how to spot similar flaws in one's own work.

heza said:

... critiquing others is a vital part of the learning experience.

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This. I've learned more about writing from critiquing others' work than from any other single thing except for reading.

Let me tell you a story. The very first critique meeting I ever attended, I was a mere slip of a 17-year-old. Quite a few of the other people were published authors, and all were far more experienced writers than I was. The woman sitting to my left had eight books published by major publishers.

Talk about intimidating!

The woman on my left read her piece out, and the practice at that group was to go around the circle and everyone say what they had to say. We were going clockwise, which meant, of course, that I was last.

I'd spotted kind of a logic flaw in her chapter, a character doing something that didn't seem like the sort of thing he'd actually do. It pretty much leapt out at me. Surely the others must have noticed and someone would say something, yes? No. So did that mean I was wrong? By the time my turn came, my 17-year-old blood pressure was sky high! After all, how could li'l ol' me spot an error in a multi-published author's work, an error that writers way more experienced than I didn't notice?

But I swallowed my nerves, grasped hold of my courage, and said my piece. The woman looked at me in surprise and said, 'Oh my goodness, you're absolutely right. He'd never do that. Thanks!'

So it doesn't matter how inexperienced you are or how experienced the writer is....you might well be the only person to spot something that needs fixing.

And as you get more experienced with critiquing others' work, you'll get better at applying those skills to your own. It's always hardest for us to be objective about our own work. Critiquing others' work helps us to get better at critiquing our own, and it's a crucial skill for becoming better writers.

Bufty said:

And critically reading the work of others is the best way to learn how to spot similar flaws in one's own work.

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Absolutely. Seconded, thirded, etc.

April Days said:

Me, too. I read for the advice, because I feel inadequate to offer anything. I'm a novice writer. Who's going to take anything I say seriously? I have no credentials.

I do appreciate this site, though! I've learned a hell of a lot in my short tenure here.

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I'm not published.


give your opinions; if someone else thinks you're wrong, they'll speak up. You may learn from it, in fact.



All that said, here's a different, less altruistic argument for ANYONE afraid to crit:

Critiquing makes YOU better. MUCH better. So if you want to succeed, you're only letting your own fears hold you back. Besides which this is no place for cowardice. It can be daunting. You may get your hands slapped. But you will also improve your own craft, and it is one of the quickest, most effective ways to do so.

I don't understand the "I'm not published so I can't constructively criticize" argument. That's like saying we can't criticize the government if we've never been Prime Minister. We're all, I assume, readers, and as readers we have the skillset to recognize what we do and don't enjoy reading. At the very least.

If you've learned a lot, that's great, because it means you're now in a position to comment in a manner you didn't previously feel able to. Make honest comments and folk will take you seriously.

Exactly how I started to contribute, and we have the same writing credentials.

Reputations here are built on contributions, not credentials -although some contributors do have impressive credentials if you dig deep enough to find them.

ETA- My God! Is that 10,999 posts I see? And still undetected!

April Days said:

Me, too. I read for the advice, because I feel inadequate to offer anything. I'm a novice writer. Who's going to take anything I say seriously? I have no credentials.

I do appreciate this site, though! I've learned a hell of a lot in my short tenure here.

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Also, keep in mind that SYW isn't the only room on the boards. Yes, critiques are valuable--and especially from regular readers, but have you visited your genre room recently and just wandered? How about the Research room? Sometimes your contribution can about where you live or what you do in your "realspace" life.

We're writers. We don't know everything in the whole wide world, and research is critical to what we do. While I don't recommend looking down in the depths of five-year-old threads to resurrect them, you'd might be surprised to learn that someone needs to know about the very things you live every day.

For myself, I learned more about writing by interacting with others here than I ever could have just reading threads. Sometimes it's a derail of the thread that is the best information. It's one of the reasons we allow derails. If something you read sparks a question, or a comment, in your mind, bring it up! We love to learn and teach both. I'll bet you have some of each in you.