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Old 04-03-2013, 12:20 AM   #1
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Contemporary YA and realistic word count

I'm familiar with the general trend when it comes to YA and word counts. I've read this cool post, too.
http://literaticat.blogspot.ru/2011/...t-dracula.html

But what I'd like to ask if not so much about the formula as the realistic expectations. Just how short is too short for contemporary? The famous blog post says
Quote:
35,000-75,000 words
but does having a 35k contemp sort of taint your chances? Like, you know, you can send in a 45k secondary world YA fantasy, but an agent will raise a brow at it. Whereas, say, a 65k secondary world YA fantasy is not really typical, but it seems to be just fine.

In other words, where does the wiggle room for contemporary YA unofficially meet its limits?

I'm asking about the low end of the scale, because I write short and even though I have some ideas and plans and YA mss, I've never written a true contemp before. I want to be ready, just in case.
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Old 04-03-2013, 12:52 AM   #2
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It depends.

Agents seem to have a visceral reaction to anything lower than 40k - just the visual of something in the 30s.

Shady_Lane said somewhere that she used to get her word count to 35k and call it 40 on the queries. This is something that people here probably frown at because you never ever ever want to start your relationship off on a "lie" no matter how minor. But she said that no agents who had the full ever complained. I would imagine, once you're hooked enough, 5k neither here nor there is nothing. Remember that agents also have works in progress. It's pretty much unheard of for an agent to put a work instantly on sub. If they think it's too short, they can probably help you bump it up.

For the querying, though, I think it's more about premise. You have a totally killer and original concept? The agent will probably request anyway. If your query seems good but a little bare bones? They'll probably request. If it seems padded out (pretty much the worst thing a query can be when you're querying a short book) or fairly standard, you're probably hurting your chances.

But it's all in the eye of the specific agent. I'd be tempted to get it up to say 38k as much as I could and call it 40.
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Old 04-04-2013, 01:39 AM   #3
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35K is novella territory.

If you're thinking e-publication, it's not as big a deal, but with print, it poses a problem (of sorts). That's a tiny book. Granted it may be the most powerful, life-changing tiny book ever written, but it's still tiny. And it's going to sit on a shelf between big books and huge books and books that will look big because they're now next to a tiny book.

Readers will look at the big book and its price, and then they'll look at the tiny book and its price and wonder why they should pay the same for the tiny book as the big one. And sadly, most times, the tiny book will lose out based on perception of monetary value. So, a publisher can't price a tiny book like a big book, even though there's not much difference in the production costs, and they can't cut the price too much because they still want to turn a profit.
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Old 04-05-2013, 07:54 AM   #4
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35K is novella territory.
Ditto. I would try and get it as close to 40k as you can.
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Old 04-05-2013, 06:16 PM   #5
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Skinny books make me sad. They look so forlorn, squeezed between the nice big fat ones. I think digital publishing is the best friend the novelette and novella ever had, and I'm seeing more and more of them.

I'd aim for 50,000 words or above if you're looking to publish in paper. Easy for me to say; I always write long and then cut.

Writers do seem to have natural length tendencies, but it's far from impossible to teach yourself to go from short to long or long to short. You have to learn a new structural language, as it were, either one that's more expansive or one that's more tightly focused, one that can paint building-wide murals or one that can paint exquisite miniatures. The marathon vs. the sprint. The hours-long banquet vs. the perfect small plate at a cafe with a view.

Your metaphor here:

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Old 04-05-2013, 11:13 PM   #6
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I'd think that there might be some leeway if your novel was in verse or something like that would validate a lower word count. Just an uneducated guess/perception.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:15 AM   #7
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I'd think that there might be some leeway if your novel was in verse or something like that would validate a lower word count. Just an uneducated guess/perception.
That's true. A verse novel with a low word count will almost always have a higher page count than a prose novel with the same word count, too, so that validates them a little bit.

I don't know. I'd say anywhere from 45k to 80k is good for a contemp. My WIPs are usually in the 50s and 60s.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:48 AM   #8
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I've got a list somewhere of contemp word counts I've looked up obsessively one day when I was feeling paranoid. I'll try to find it if it would be helpful.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:51 AM   #9
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What if your general technique has a lot of underwriting? My experience has always been with flash fiction and very short stories. (412-3,000 words) I sort of write in the same genre as well.D: For clarification, in regards to learning a new structure as to reach 50,000 words.
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:01 AM   #10
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Quote:
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35K is novella territory.

If you're thinking e-publication, it's not as big a deal, but with print, it poses a problem (of sorts). That's a tiny book. Granted it may be the most powerful, life-changing tiny book ever written, but it's still tiny. And it's going to sit on a shelf between big books and huge books and books that will look big because they're now next to a tiny book.

Readers will look at the big book and its price, and then they'll look at the tiny book and its price and wonder why they should pay the same for the tiny book as the big one. And sadly, most times, the tiny book will lose out based on perception of monetary value. So, a publisher can't price a tiny book like a big book, even though there's not much difference in the production costs, and they can't cut the price too much because they still want to turn a profit.
This is very true. Just to clarify that I was talking about agents - 35k does hurt your chances of being picked up by an agent, but doesn't reduce them to zero. But you're also likely to get notes from an agent (whether they offer representation or not) on how to beef it up.
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:22 AM   #11
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Quote:
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What if your general technique has a lot of underwriting? My experience has always been with flash fiction and very short stories. (412-3,000 words) I sort of write in the same genre as well.D: For clarification, in regards to learning a new structure as to reach 50,000 words.
The problem with shorter word counts is that publishers may be less likely to be interested because readers may not be willing to shell out the money for smaller books. At least that's one of the reasons I have read.

ETA: I'm dumb. Cyia already said this. I just didn't read her answer thoroughly enough.

I think some people feel cheated when a "novel" is too short because there's a perception that there should be a certain amount of depth in a story.

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Old 04-06-2013, 07:53 AM   #12
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Verse definitely doesn't abide by normal word count standards, and is usually in the 25,000-35,000 range though some is as low as 15k or up past 40k. For normal contemp though I would try to stick to at least 50,000, for the reasons already stated. I tend to underwrite myself and find myself adding a significant amount in revisions, so if your first draft is short I wouldn't worry too much about it quite yet. Revising and betas may help boost it up later.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:58 PM   #13
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I know what everyone is saying about skinny books being forlorn and not representing value for money (I agree)....although I am assuming that we are all readers here. My experience as a teacher tells me that many kids are turned off by the thick books...yep, a lot of them are plain lazy and a lot of them will actually seek out the thinnest book on the shelf hoping to finish it it super quick time so they can get their book report done.

I suppose I am suggesting that there is definately a market for the thin book. Perhaps the appropriate length of your book is dependent also on the reader you hope to entice....are you writing in a style to hopefully lure the reluctant reader or are you trying to reach the avid reader?

Another thought...really long books are sometimes avoided by teachers (for use as a class text)...this is purely practical, we like to read and share most of the book in class and this is really hard to do with a doorstopper (no matter how brilliant it is many kids won't read it if we don't do it in class). Thin books are great for this purpose, we can get through them quickly and move on to other things.
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:29 PM   #14
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I suppose I am suggesting that there is definately a market for the thin book. Perhaps the appropriate length of your book is dependent also on the reader you hope to entice....are you writing in a style to hopefully lure the reluctant reader or are you trying to reach the avid reader?
I don't necessarily agree with this. There are plenty of short books which are dense short books - Alan Garner's for example, which are pared down and don't have a wasted word and are not always easy reads, though absolutely worth sticking with. Giving Red Shift to a reluctant reader would be a mistake, even if it is only about 150 pages long.

Many long books do well because they are comforting, consoling and not too difficult to read and you get what there is to get first time. Garner for example trusts you to keep up and you pick up things on repeated readings, and he's the opposite of comforting.
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Old 04-06-2013, 06:49 PM   #15
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For general reading, for me the perfect book length was always around 192-230. I could complete the book in two to three days, and then have time for the book study the rest of the week. With that said, my experience was always reading books by Stanton Friedman, like Crash At Corona, so it might translate a little differently.
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Old 04-08-2013, 02:06 AM   #16
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For general reading, for me the perfect book length was always around 192-230. I could complete the book in two to three days, and then have time for the book study the rest of the week. With that said, my experience was always reading books by Stanton Friedman, like Crash At Corona, so it might translate a little differently.
But page counts really aren't a good measure of book length because formatting, fonts, margins, etc. can all change page size dramatically. Just a thought.
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Old 04-08-2013, 04:58 PM   #17
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Ok then 48,000 words to 70,000 words. Thats what I was getting at. Also some books I read don't even go by word count. (Like graphic novels.)
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:07 AM   #18
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I sort of disappeared from the thread, but now I'm back and I want to say thank you.
It seems the general consensus is that 50k is the safe minimal length for a contemp.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:29 AM   #19
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Ah damn. That means I have to write more words...Lol...
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:58 PM   #20
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I'd agree with the general consensus and say try and push it up to 40k. Contemps do tend to be shorter and more concise, so the agents will understand if it's not an absolute brick (and too long isn't welcome either).
If it helps, my contemp WHAT I D1DN'T TELL Y0U was 45k at the end of draft #1 in Nov 2011. Now, after a few rounds of revisions and developing the story, it stands at 76k! So I have faith you'll manage to bump yours up too
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Old 05-09-2013, 01:28 AM   #21
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I've got two contemps sitting at around 50k, but no doubt I'd be able to bump them up if an agent required it. Looking at my bookshelf, the contemps do tend to be shorter than the dystopia/fantasy etc I've got on there. Not as a strict rule, but it is the general trend. And first novels or standalones are often shorter than sequels - currently reading the third in a historical fantasy trilogy that stands at a whopping 800+ pages. The first one wasn't even half that.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:33 AM   #22
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50,000 word seems like a good number to me, despite the fact that I have never written that many before. Doesn't mean I can't, it just mean I haven't yet. But for someone like me who is used to writing short, it is a good goal to work toward, and perhaps while I am writing it out the first time, I shouldn't even look at the word count until it is "finished" and then go back and fill in what needs to be filled in. All in all I think I need to change my writing process anyway, seeing as most of the old tricks I used to use don't work very well for this kind of writing.
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:12 AM   #23
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Every weekend I spend a hour or so in my favorite bookstore. YA is one of my must-see areas. I see YA books of all sizes, all the way to up a whopping three inches thick! I found it clumsy to handle despite my big hands, but itís a popular book.

As a sort of benchmark consider the Hunger Games trilogy. The number of pages are 374/391/390. The word count of each is about 100,000 (99,750 for HG).

Many of you seem to be talking about middle-grade books. Their lengths are typically shorter than YA.
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:47 AM   #24
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I've got a 55k YA contemp, and I can tell you that most publishers are not looking for anything under 60k. I don't know about agents, but out of all the publisher guidelines I've looked at--for large publishers and small--the only ones that will look at contemps under 60k are the new e-imprints that focus on romance. (If anyone knows of any exceptions, please let me know!)
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:05 AM   #25
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Simon Pulse(US) for one - Hannah Moskowitz's first two YAs, Break and Invincible Summer, both contemporaries, are 42,175 and 51,295 words respectively.

Jenny Valentine's Finding Violet Park (US title: Me, the Missing and the Dead) is 36,244. Published by HarperCollins in the UK.

Annabel Pitcher's My Sister Lives on the Mantelpiece is 58,594. Okay, that one might be upper MG. Published by Orion in the UK.

All of Meg Rosoff's YAs except for There is No Dog are under 50k. Published by Penguin in the UK.

Wordcounts from Renaissance Learning. I've restricted this list to recent debut novels.
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