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Old 01-07-2013, 07:19 AM   #1
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If Corporations Are People...
A novel strategy to challenge the notion in court that corporations are people - driving in the car pool lane with corporation papers.

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...on-papers?lite

I hope this creates as big a circus in court as it has the possibility of doing. Especially since to make his point, he has to lose his case.
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Old 01-07-2013, 01:50 PM   #2
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Agreed. I hope this becomes a circus and long drawn out process. Also, I admit, I laughed at how long it took him to finally get pulled over.
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Old 01-07-2013, 03:10 PM   #3
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Looks moronic to me. Not novel, not clever. But sure, what's one more bit of stupidity in the court system?
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:57 PM   #4
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Oh, FFS, I'm with rob here. He didn't have "a corporation" in the car with him, he had the legal documents that represent that fictional creation. He could have as legitimately carried another person's drivers' license and claimed they were in the car with him.

The stoopid, she burns. Has this guy never heard the expression "the map is not the territory?"

...and this opinion comes from someone who believes the whole concept of corporations is ebil and would love to see them destroyed.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:01 PM   #5
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So. . . I guess that brings up the question: what constitutes a corportion?
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:12 PM   #6
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So. . . I guess that brings up the question: what constitutes a corporation?
Short answer, an agreed-upon mass delusion. You can't see it or touch it or taste it or feel it or hear it, but all the right people agree it exists. Note the similarity to religion?

From BLD.
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An artificial person or legal entity created by or under the authority of the laws of a state or nation, composed, in some rare instances, of a single person and his successors, being the incumbents of a particular oltice, but ordinarily consisting of an association of numerous individuals, who subsist as a body politic under a special denomination, which is regarded In law as having a personality and existence distinct from that of its several members, and which is, by the same authority, vested with the capacity of continuous succession, irrespective of changes in its membership, either in perpetuity or for a limited term of years, and of acting as a unit or single individual in matters relating to the common purpose of the association, within the scope of the powers and authorities conferred upon such bodies by law. See Case of Sutton’s Hospital, 10 Coke. 32; Dartmouth College v. Woodward, 4 Wheat. 518, 636, 657. 4 L. Ed. 629; U. S. v. Trinidad Coal Co., 137 U. S. 160, 11 Sup. Ct. 57. 34 L. Ed. 640; Andrews Bros. Co. v. Youngstown Coke Co., 86 Fed. 585, 30 C. C. A. 293; Porter v. Railroad Co., 76 111. 573; State v. Payne, 129 Mo. 468, 31 S. W. 797. 33 L. R. A. 576; Farmers’ L. & T. Co. v. New York, 7 Hill (N. Y.) 2S3; State BL.LAW DICT.(2D ED.)
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I tend to blame the Feds for Don, actually.
If they'd get it right, we wouldn't need Don pointing out that they'd gotten it wrong.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:14 PM   #7
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None of which negates the plurality of people in that car.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:17 PM   #8
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None of which negates the plurality of people in that car.
What plurality? There was one person and a stack of papers that describe a legal entity - a map, not the territory.
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The 'social contract' is to the politician what 'original sin' is to the priest. ~Don
The vision of the helpful and protective state is the most pervasive and counter-productive ideology in the world today. ~Don
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I tend to blame the Feds for Don, actually.
If they'd get it right, we wouldn't need Don pointing out that they'd gotten it wrong.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:17 PM   #9
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None of which negates the plurality of people in that car.
Sure it does. Unless one is given to flights of fancy as being consistent with reality.

If I had my deceased grandmother's ashes in the car with me, would there be multiple people in the car?

Or how 'bout this: I have my union card in my pocket--which is representative of a huge group of people--therefore I can use the carpool lane.

Or this: the spirits of my ancestors are with me always...
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:25 PM   #10
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Sure it does. Unless one is given to flights of fancy as being consistent with reality.

If I had my deceased grandmother's ashes in the car with me, would there be multiple people in the car?

Or how 'bout this: I have my union card in my pocket--which is representative of a huge group of people--therefore I can use the carpool lane.

Or this: the spirits if my ancestors are with me always...
Precisely.

It's the same sort of conflation that equates money with wealth, another widely-held map-territory error, and just as likely to lead one off the fairway and into the weeds.
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The 'social contract' is to the politician what 'original sin' is to the priest. ~Don
The vision of the helpful and protective state is the most pervasive and counter-productive ideology in the world today. ~Don
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I tend to blame the Feds for Don, actually.
If they'd get it right, we wouldn't need Don pointing out that they'd gotten it wrong.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:33 PM   #11
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Oh, how bout this:

If I have the Constitution of the U.S. in the car with me, then all of the legislative, judicial, and executive branch officers--as designated in the Constitution--are also in the car with me.

Someone wake up Lautenberg. He's drooling on the upholstery...
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:49 PM   #12
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Sure it does. Unless one is given to flights of fancy as being consistent with reality.

If I had my deceased grandmother's ashes in the car with me, would there be multiple people in the car?

Or how 'bout this: I have my union card in my pocket--which is representative of a huge group of people--therefore I can use the carpool lane.

Or this: the spirits of my ancestors are with me always...
The man in the OP probably does not think any of those things would allow you to drive in the carpool lane. He doesn't think he should be allowed to drive in the carpool lane.

I have to say, I'm shocked that he lives in California and it took him that long to get pulled over.
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Old 01-07-2013, 05:54 PM   #13
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The man in the OP probably does not think any of those things would allow you to drive in the carpool lane. He doesn't think he should be allowed to drive in the carpool lane.
Of course. But he thinks he has a valid legal argument. He doesn't. "Corporate personhood" is limited as a legal doctrine. Always has been.

And note, that doctrine is what allows people to sue corporations. How many of those opposed to it en total would willingly accept giving up the option to sue a company? All those tobacco company lawsuits: up in smoke. Lawsuits against BP and Exxon: gone.

There are problems with the extent of the doctrine, no doubt. But we take the good with the bad.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:19 PM   #14
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I have to say, I'm shocked that he lives in Marin County and it took him that long to get pulled over.
Fixed slightly

I grew up near San Rafael and the CHP always seemed pretty strict about enforcing carpool rules. I'm amazed it took 10 years for someone to fine him.
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Old 01-07-2013, 06:52 PM   #15
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So. . . I guess that brings up the question: what constitutes a corportion?
It also begs the question; what are people?
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:04 PM   #16
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Soylent Green, I would imagine.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:06 PM   #17
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I have to say, I'm shocked that he lives in California and it took him that long to get pulled over.
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I grew up near San Rafael and the CHP always seemed pretty strict about enforcing carpool rules. I'm amazed it took 10 years for someone to fine him.
Well, that's what he claims.

I read his op-ed piece linked to in the article. I sincerely hope he doesn't have a law license...
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:11 PM   #18
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Eh. Silly. But to derail...

Last week, I was in the HOV lane coming home after picking up my daughter from school. Personally, I think it's silly that she counts since we aren't carpooling. She can't drive anyway! But...I'll take advantage of the law.

Anyway, the other lanes were moving faster, so I switched out of the HOV lane. Just as I passed a cop. He immediately pulled behind me, lights flashing, clearly not seeing my daughter in the back seat.

Until I told her to turn around and wave to the cop.

Haha...that lazy cop sitting around collecting county revenue had to go and turn around. He may have missed a real HOV violator.

Okay. Back to OP.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:19 PM   #19
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HOV lanes are stupid, imo. Where's the Equal Protection Clause there?

/derail
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:26 PM   #20
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Oh, how bout this:

If I have the Constitution of the U.S. in the car with me, then all of the legislative, judicial, and executive branch officers--as designated in the Constitution--are also in the car with me.

So does that mean you could get government plates for you car? Because that would be cool. You'd also get to stick the tiny motorcade flags on the front and call it "Automobile One." (Or at least One-point-five)
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Old 01-07-2013, 08:53 PM   #21
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I agree that it seems ridiculous to even try to consider documents a person. As much as I hate the corporation as person rule, I don't think this will really help. In fact, I'd worry that it would hurt because it's so ridiculous of a claim that I imagine a lot of people would think the whole thing is just a person trying to take advantage of the system. I'm not sure I see this as a good way to start a dialogue or challenge the system.

Btw, don't they have ticket cameras on those things? How did he do this for ten years and never get a ticket?
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Old 01-07-2013, 09:33 PM   #22
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I hands down agree with Rob and Don. The court will just rule that he did not have a physical person in the vehicle. Corporate personhood is used discriminately. The court picks and chooses how the law defines it.

1 USC § 1
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In determining the meaning of any Act of Congress, unless the context indicates otherwise-- the words "person" and "whoever" include corporations, companies, associations, firms, partnerships, societies, and joint stock companies, as well as individuals;
This poor old guy isn't bringing any new ideas to the table to discuss.
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Old 01-08-2013, 04:18 AM   #23
Scribhneoir
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Originally Posted by kaitie View Post
Btw, don't they have ticket cameras on those things?
Nope. There are ticket cameras on toll roads, but not carpool lanes.
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Old 01-08-2013, 07:20 PM   #24
Myrealana
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Oh, FFS, I'm with rob here. He didn't have "a corporation" in the car with him, he had the legal documents that represent that fictional creation. He could have as legitimately carried another person's drivers' license and claimed they were in the car with him.
This, 100%
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Old 01-11-2013, 10:01 AM   #25
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Oh, FFS, I'm with rob here. He didn't have "a corporation" in the car with him, he had the legal documents that represent that fictional creation. He could have as legitimately carried another person's drivers' license and claimed they were in the car with him.

The stoopid, she burns. Has this guy never heard the expression "the map is not the territory?"

...and this opinion comes from someone who believes the whole concept of corporations is ebil and would love to see them destroyed.
I'm not saying that this guy shouldn't get a ticket, but it does make you think.

After all, corporations aren't a physical being. They're an idea. You can't point to a corporation and say "there it is!" You can only point to a building in which the people who work for the corporation do business in. Which, I think, disproves the drivers license argument.

So, while I can see where the guy is coming from (because, let's face it, our campaign finance laws are profoundly stupid), there are better ways to start up a dialogue and call those laws into question.
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