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Old 12-17-2012, 11:20 PM   #1
LadyIsh
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Exclamation Accuracy wanted! (guns and flying glass)

Hi everyone! I'm new here and dying for knowledge and input. I'm sure there are hundreds of wound threads, yet I can't find the answers to what I need. My MC is out with her male friend at a local hot spot (undetermined at this moment). It's a corner building & mostly glass/large windows. The hot spot is attacked by gunmen, retaliation. Type of guns used are handguns .45, .9mm....maybe even an Uzi, haven't decided yet. MC & friend are both going to be injured. I wanted them to be near an exit, but not where they can get out once fired upon. I need them both struck by flying glass...enough to leave scars and cause MC some blood loss. I also want MC to get hit by a stray bullet. I was thinking in the back(near shoulder area but not shoulder.)/middle fiber trapezius muscle. She needs to have limited to loss of mobility in arm, but not neck or hand. Should the bullet still be lodged in her or should there be an exit wound? Also is it possible to be struck by the bullet when she is on her stomach covering her face/head with her arms. Would it be better for her to be struck by bullet first then she hits the deck and proceeds to be tore up by flying glass? She is helped medically within 15mins and hospitalized within 40 She heals within 3-5 months and then goes through PT for 7 months and regains full use. Some days it does still her. Want this to be as accurate as I can get it. She is human and healed humanly by humans. Thank you for all your help! It is greatly appreciated!
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Old 12-18-2012, 01:16 AM   #2
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The .45 will penetrate deep, but not sure if the bullet would enter AND exit the body. I think if you got shot in the upper arm (bicep/tricep), the arm would be come agonizingly painful to move...
Sorry that's all I know!
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Old 12-18-2012, 02:07 AM   #3
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Old 12-18-2012, 03:12 AM   #4
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Most .45s will have an exit wound, unless the bullet is designed to expand/fragment a lot, it travels a very long distance, or penetrates other things to slow it down. Same goes for the 9 btw.

The 'body shield' thing you see in movies (where one guy, usually the hero holds an enemy in front of himself to soak up bullets) only works in the movies. In real life most bullets will penetrate far enough to hit and kill the person standing behind.

I don't think there's any likelihood anyone would be badly hurt by flying glass. Bullets don't tend to shatter whole panes, they punch little holes, sending out miniscule shards of glass. I suppose the pane could collapse, but they'd have to be sitting right under it, and I'd still find it fairly unlikely they'd take much damage, as the glass would only be propelled by the force of gravity.
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Old 12-18-2012, 06:59 AM   #5
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Standard minimum penetration for defensive uses (police, self-defense, etc.) is 12 inches. Hydro-shock, hollow-point or any of a dozen similar terms describe this ammo. Jacketed, usually known as full metal jacket or FMJ ammo will penetrate further. In general, handguns have lighter loads than long guns, including Uzis, AK's, AR15's and so on. This means less penetration.

Many people have seen too many movies and "hit the dirt" when bullets fly. It's not a good strategy, but it's a normal human reflex. If the MC were prone with feet generally toward the shooter(s), a hit in the shoulder is possible and can do the damage you are looking for.

Forget flying glass doing anything significant, virtually all windows will be safety glass, shattering into many small and relatively blunt shards. Glass on the floor could be another issue, especially if they dive onto it to avoid the bullets. Still not major blood loss, use the bullet wound for that, but some fairly unattractive wounds. If not treated well, they can heal with scarring. The other possibility is glass partitions inside the building, especially if they run into/through one.

My suggestion is an AK spraying the windows (Very ineffective as far as hitting anyone) with other gunmen firing 9mm into the building with high capacity magazines. A Glock 17 with a 31 round magazine for example. Have her hit by a ricochet after they run through a glass divider and go to the floor. Write the wound as you wish. No exit, depending on where she's hit there could be serious damage to tendons and/or arteries.

PM me if you need more...

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Old 12-18-2012, 07:13 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LadyIsh View Post
The hot spot is attacked by gunmen, retaliation. Type of guns used are handguns .45, .9mm....maybe even an Uzi, haven't decided yet.
Not going to weigh in in the wound stuff as that's not my area, and it sounds like others have good suggestions, but I wanted to drop a quick note to say you mean 9mm, not .9mm. Point-nine-millimeter ammunition would have a diameter of less than a millimeter -- smaller around than a toothpick!

(Also, Uzis often fire 9mm. They have other variants but most I've used have fired 9mm...it's not just a handgun caliber. )
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Old 12-18-2012, 09:10 AM   #7
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Just an additional thought. If the POV is from one of the two inside who are hurt, they probably won't know or care the calibre/type of weapons fired at them beyond whether they're fully or semi-automatic.
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Old 12-23-2012, 11:02 AM   #8
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AS above the glass will not be a threat. The bullets will punch a small hole in them and if they do shatter completely it will simply fall straight down.

Bullet wounds are usually much more extensive than what people think. A soft nosed bullet will do a great deal of damage.
Note that a bullet would in the shoulder area will break his shoulder plate making that arm useless and probably clip a lung. Bone framents may also hole a lung.I wish people would stop getting shot in the shoulder and then going dancing afterwards. That Jason Bourne movie was a good example - that shoulder wound he sewed up in the gas station bathroom was a mortal wound. There are bones you need, arteries under the coller bone, and its too close to the lung.

I would have her get hit by a bullet that does not exit and incapacitates her for however long you want; we can find out later that it is the copper jacket of a bullet that came apart on something else, ricocheted and hit her without doing major (or doing as much as you want) damage. You can shoot her where you want then.
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Old 12-23-2012, 09:55 PM   #9
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As has been pointed out, the breaking windows won't be an issue, as they are made of safety glass and you simply won't get cut by them. I'd probably have it hit a wine/champagne bottle and shatter it, thus spraying MC with glass if you want that.
And I agree with Carlsen. if you want an example of a more realistic gunshot wound being self treated? Rambo would be it. Of course, that would be about the only realistic part in all of Rambo.
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Old 01-02-2013, 09:55 AM   #10
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Thanks everyone for your input!! I really like the idea of the champagne/wine bottle being struck with the bullet for flying glass Ben . Carlsen-- I agree with you about having characters shot and then brush it off like it was a fly on their shoulder. My MC is going to be struck with a bullet, but she isn't going out dancing right after--she's going straight to the hospital where she does have long term damage and physical therapy.
Again, thank you everyone!! Hope y'all had Merry holidays and a happy new year!
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Old 01-05-2013, 06:23 AM   #11
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As far as glass injuries, IMHO hitting the deck when the glass is there already and crawling or dragging across it is far more likely to cause deeper wounds than random shattered glass showering someone. The glass just isn't going to have the momentum to do serious harm by itself, except maybe a direct hit to the eye, which could scratch or get lodged or something. I can't see the scene clear enough to know for sure, but in my experience, glass is something that cuts you when you are cleaning it up.

AFAIK, an uzi is classified as a pistol or an SBR, same velocities, same rounds, but modifiable to full auto. For more about uzi's, look here: http://www.uzi.com/firearms.html, or check THR for articles on them.

Second, more powerful round does not necessarily equal more penetration. Much depends on the bullet and there are endless varieties for all calibers. On the whole though, no pun intended, rifles do more damage than pistols.

As far as wound to arm muscles not affecting hand and forearm, I'm not a doctor, but the muscles that control your fingers are affected by certain muscles in the shoulder and upper arm and even the back. Specially the pinky and ring finger. (bang you funny bone, feel the tingle in those two digits?) It's a rather long discussion, but those two digits draw power from several muscles, resulting in a stronger grip with them than any other digits. (You can prove this to yourself also with some simple experiments) I apologize for not knowing the specific muscle groups, but maybe a google search for "strength fingers"?

Exit wound? Yes. Definitely. I've done research on this topic heavily. One of my good friends just self-pubed a book on the matter with his non-linear model, www.quantitativeammunitionselection.com
Unless it's a low penetration round, such as a fragmenting bullet, it's going through 4 inches of flesh quite easily. Just a matter of how big you want the wound cavity. 9mm round point will leave a fairly small hole, wadcutters (unlikely for criminals) make a perfectly cut hole, 45 hollowpoint exit would should be .75" in diameter or larger.

Side-note, if the bullet goes through heavy clothing, sometimes glass, or any other medium that can clog the hollowpoint, they won't open. Some bullets are designed to avoid this flaw and should open no matter what, but even then, failure to expand will happen occasionally. Hornady makes such a bullet. Again, expensive rounds so I don't know if your assailants will be using them. In general, ball ammo (aka full metal jacket) is the cheapest.

My suggestion: Gunmen come in, deer-in-headlights reaction (ask a cop that's been in a gunfight, it happens quite often), MC struck in the tender portion of neck near the shoulder (little flap of tough skin at the base of the neck, just miss the artery and the shoulder blade), then drops to the ground in panic and cuts him/herself on broken glass.

If you need any more specifics PM me. I'm not going to list my credentials but I know my bullets.
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