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Old 12-12-2012, 04:02 AM   #1
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Mass Shooting in Portland

From what's being reported so far I'm gathering that a masked person walked into the food court at Clackamas Town Center in Portland and opened fire. So far they are reporting two deaths and multiple injuries. My husband (who was there at this time yesterday) said that he just saw about 20 police cars heading south from the mall on I-205. (He works down the street from the mall). They're still sorting out details, but I'll put the link to the local news below. They're posting live updates.

http://www.katu.com/


(saying a quiet thank you to the universe today that my husband finished his shopping early this year)
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:03 AM   #2
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Ugh. I hope it stays at two deaths and end without any more violence.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:06 AM   #3
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Me too. Some of the witnesses are saying they heard so many gunshots that they lost count. Hoping that's not the case.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:12 AM   #4
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To be fair...I'd lose count pretty quick if someone started shooting off a gun near me.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:15 AM   #5
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It kind of sounds like there may have been more than one shooter. They keep scrolling that it's believed that "one" of the shooters is dead but they haven't confirmed that there are others.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:16 AM   #6
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And the girl they just interviewed said she hid in the bathroom and heard at least 15 shots.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:25 AM   #7
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I hope he or she was a terrible terrible awful no good shitty shot.
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Old 12-12-2012, 04:56 AM   #8
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I have friends visiting Portland. I just dashed off an email requesting a quick note to let me know they are ok.

Absolutely terrifying. What is it with all the shootings?
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:07 AM   #9
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I hope he or she was a terrible terrible awful no good shitty shot.
But that's the beauty of the second amendment. We all have the right to freely obtain and possess an AR-15 semi-automtic assault rifle. (Which, according to reports, is the weapon used.)

With an AR-15, you don't need to be a good shot.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:42 AM   #10
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I just heard about this. Quickly called my family members living in the area. Most were safe at home. My sister was on the way to the mall when she heard about it (probably on her phone while driving :|) Thankful she is okay, but scared and sad for those who weren't.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:41 AM   #11
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One shooter, now dead. Two deceased victims, one other injury. That's the current story.

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Old 12-12-2012, 06:44 AM   #12
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But that's the beauty of the second amendment.
^ and this the beauty of the first.
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Old 12-12-2012, 06:45 AM   #13
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I have heard reports that the gun jammed. I don't know how much truth there is in them.
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Old 12-12-2012, 07:28 AM   #14
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Old 12-12-2012, 02:31 PM   #15
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Let me guess: the NRA and its mouthpieces will spout off 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people.' You'll never get them to admit that the type of gun involved makes a difference.

I come from a responsible gun-owning family. Common sense says that an assault rifle is really only good for one thing: mass killing.
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Old 12-12-2012, 05:23 PM   #16
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Let me guess: the NRA and its mouthpieces will spout off 'Guns don't kill people, people kill people.' You'll never get them to admit that the type of gun involved makes a difference.

I come from a responsible gun-owning family. Common sense says that an assault rifle is really only good for one thing: mass killing.
That's why our wise leaders don't allow assault rifles to be sold to the great unwashed. He was carrying an AR-15, which does not provide for fully-automatic or burst mode. It's a semi-automatic. The only way to own an assault rifle in the US is to pay a special tax and have that particular weapon registered.

"Semi-automatic assault rifle," like "government intelligence," is an oxymoron. The two terms are even closely related through the Federal Assault Weapons Ban, wherein FedGov introduced the term "assault weapon" to deliberately conflate assault rifles with more common semi-automatic rifles. "Semi-automatic assault weapon," OTOH, legally defines a group of rifles functionally equivalent to others, yet restricted for for sale in the US primarily due to cosmetic differences. In the real world, "semi-automatic assault weapon" is a null set.

Semi-automatic actions are common in almost all modern rifles, including target and hunting rifles. The only real difference between an AR-15 and most modern rifles is that it's scarier-looking than a wooden-stocked hunting rifle, and has an appropriately scary name associated with the battlefield. "AR-15" and "assault rifle" get a different emotional response than "deer rifle." While some may be equipped with large magazines, that can also be true of other target and hunting rifles.

Not throwing around scare words to make a point strikes me as a basic requirement for responsible gun-owning families, IMO.

And in this case, the type of rifle involved made absolutely no difference. Any target or hunting rifle of an equivalent caliber would have been just as effective.
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Old 12-12-2012, 08:13 PM   #17
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The only real difference between an AR-15 and most modern rifles is that it's scarier-looking than a wooden-stocked hunting rifle, and has an appropriately scary name associated with the battlefield.
Yeah, and those high capacity 100 round magazines are unfairly portrayed as scary as well. You can only shoot those hundred rounds as fast as you can pull the trigger.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:16 PM   #18
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That's why our wise leaders don't allow assault rifles to be sold to the great unwashed. He was carrying an AR-15, which does not provide for fully-automatic or burst mode. It's a semi-automatic.
An assault rifle really is a specific kind of weapon. It's meant to be more easily managed at the shorter ranges that it turned out that people really used their rifles in WWII. Ie it is for doing damage relatively quickly at shorter ranges than standard rifles.

The AR15 is an assault rifle that has been modified to limit its rate of fire. This probably makes it much more dangerous when used by a novice to shoot at people at close range. In full-auto it would be much harder to aim (that mode is militarily useful as suppressive fire, but not much use in blasting a mall full of people who are going to be instantly suppressed or fleeing). About the only effective use for a modfied assault rifle is shooting people at close range. You aren't going to be shooting crowds of deer.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:45 PM   #19
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It would be interesting to compare the number of deaths by assault rifles compared to, say, hand guns.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:52 PM   #20
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It would be interesting to compare the number of deaths by assault rifles compared to, say, hand guns.
With or without control for total numbers? Because handguns certainly would top the list--being easy to get and to conceal. 14 shooting just this weekend just in Chicago. That doesn't mean I want gang members to have assault rifles instead.
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Old 12-12-2012, 09:58 PM   #21
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It would be interesting to compare the number of deaths by assault rifles compared to, say, hand guns.
You have to be pretty close to somebody to kill them with a hand gun. Chances are there is some specific reason for killing that specific person, plus your motivation would be a bit more focused if you are close enough to kill them -- you won't be doing it just for fun probably. In the world of human interaction there are probably plenty of times this kind of powerful, focused motivation comes up.

On the other hand, killing people with an assault rifle doesn't necessarily commit you to being right there and exposed to the whole event -- which is militarily the point of an assault rifle -- you can get suppressive fire even out of people who are not all that motivated to kill and who are in fact mostly motivated not to expose themselves.

This makes the assault rifle, especially in the semi-auto mod, perfect for killing people you don't know at all and who you actually have no reason at all to kill. Perfect for shooting holiday shoppers -- but really not particularly good for anything else. it doesn't have the range or bullet size for big game. Big game doesn't come in crowds.
It's also not as good as a hand gun for killing at close range (concealment, quickness of aim). The only advantages of a semi-auto mod of an assault rifle are that it allows killing from greater range and with a rate of fire that allows aiming and plenty of shots versus the average shopper.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:06 PM   #22
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Big game doesn't come in crowds.
Caribou?
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:18 PM   #23
Roger J Carlson
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Originally Posted by veinglory View Post
With or without control for total numbers? Because handguns certainly would top the list--being easy to get and to conceal. 14 shooting just this weekend just in Chicago. That doesn't mean I want gang members to have assault rifles instead.
Yeah, I guess that's pretty obvious, but not what I was driving at -- or rather -- groping for.

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You have to be pretty close to somebody to kill them with a hand gun. Chances are there is some specific reason for killing that specific person, plus your motivation would be a bit more focused if you are close enough to kill them -- you won't be doing it just for fun probably. In the world of human interaction there are probably plenty of times this kind of powerful, focused motivation comes up.

On the other hand, killing people with an assault rifle doesn't necessarily commit you to being right there and exposed to the whole event -- which is militarily the point of an assault rifle -- you can get suppressive fire even out of people who are not all that motivated to kill and who are in fact mostly motivated not to expose themselves.

This makes the assault rifle, especially in the semi-auto mod, perfect for killing people you don't know at all and who you actually have no reason at all to kill. Perfect for shooting holiday shoppers -- but really not particularly good for anything else. it doesn't have the range or bullet size for big game. Big game doesn't come in crowds.
It's also not as good as a hand gun for killing at close range (concealment, quickness of aim). The only advantages of a semi-auto mod of an assault rifle are that it allows killing from greater range and with a rate of fire that allows aiming and plenty of shots versus the average shopper.
I guess what I'm asking is whether as a class, semi-automatic weapons are more deadly than hand guns. That is, is a person intent on a killing spree really more likely to kill more people with an assault rifle than a hand gun? Common sense would say yes, but is that really true? I'm not sure how such a study would be defined.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:23 PM   #24
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You have to be pretty close to somebody to kill them with a hand gun. Chances are there is some specific reason for killing that specific person,
If you are in downtown Chicago it seems you can shoot a hand gun wildly and hit an innocent person fairly often.

But I am willing to bet that if you compare like to like, a guy running amok with the number of bullets and muzzle energy of a semi-automatic rifle will kill more people than an identical guy with a hand gun. It's basically asking if you will kill more people with a little stick or a big bat. More bullets with more penetration = more serious wounds.
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Old 12-12-2012, 10:39 PM   #25
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The masked gunman who killed two people in the crowded Clackamas Town Center mall in suburban Portland, Ore., was identified today as Jacob Tyler Roberts.
Roberts, 22, was armed with a stolen AR-15 semi-automatic weapon, Sheriff Craig Roberts told a news conference today. He was not wearing a bullet-proof vest as previously reported.
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