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Old 12-03-2012, 10:16 PM   #1
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So-called Mark of the Beast via Mandatory RFID Tracking of Human Movements -- Vatican Edition

The Vatican is now going to introduce RFID tracking devices and will make them mandatory for all Vatican employees in the wake of the recent Vatileaks scandal.

http://www.examiner.com/article/vati...ith-rfid-cards


Quote:
Vatican to begin tracking clergy and employees with RFID cards

December 2, 2012 -- By: Jake Jones

... the Vatican has decided to use an ID card that has a micro-chip device embedded inside the card that is capable of being used as a tracking device. This card will be given to clergy and employees.... The common name for such devices is RFID or Radio Frequency Identification devices.

The issuance of these devices will probably take place on or about January, 1, 2013. The Vatican sees the need for the tracking cards because of the conviction of a person for stealing the pontiff's private documents and leaking them to an Italian journalist in an “embarrassing security breach that rocked the Vatican earlier this year”, according to The Telegraph....


The article goes on to explore the Mark of the Beast as found in the Bible, and also makes mention the case of the San Antonio girl currently being discussed in another thread here at P&CE.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:31 PM   #2
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Well, some fundamentalist Evangelicals already believe that the Pope is the anti-Christ, so I guess this just further proves it to them.

Wait a minute...now that I think about it...

OH MY GOD! THEY WERE RIGHT ALL ALONG! THE PROPHESIES ARE ALL TRUE!!!!
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:43 PM   #3
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Well, to be fair, the Bible claims it is a mark that goes ON someone, right? This is a card that people have to carry around.

Still crazy, but not exactly the Mark of the Beast.
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Old 12-03-2012, 10:52 PM   #4
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Well, to be fair, the Bible claims it is a mark that goes ON someone, right?
Nope. The mark is a number ("666" or "616," depending on the translation source) that represents Nero (the "beast of the sea"). Some have claimed that the true "mark" was his official seal, some have claimed it was money (coins) with his image on it (when a person carried the coins, they were "carrying the mark of the beast").

My guess is that this story has been conflated by some Evangelicals and Protestants with the "mark" that God placed on Cain's forehead (to ensure no one would kill him for killing Abel), to where they think it is literally a mark that will be placed on people around the time of the Tribulation.

Quote:
Still crazy, but not exactly the Mark of the Beast.
Seems to me that most of the people who are afraid of the MotB, have no idea what it actually was/is, so for them it could be about anything scary...but not scary enough to make them go read their Bibles and do any kind of research to educate themselves on what the MotB actually is. Apparently, it's more comforting to be scared than informed.
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Old 12-04-2012, 12:25 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opty View Post
My guess is that this story has been conflated by some Evangelicals and Protestants with the "mark" that God placed on Cain's forehead (to ensure no one would kill him for killing Abel), to where they think it is literally a mark that will be placed on people around the time of the Tribulation.
I am under the impression you have not actually read the Christian Bible's "Book of Revelation." When one reads those passages where the Mark is mentioned, there is little or no conflation to the notion that the Mark is a literal marking of some kind which gets literally placed upon the literal physical bodily right hand and/or the forehead of millions of people all over the world. (I am familiar with the interpretation of the Mark of Cain back in Genesis. But the funny thing about the Mark of Cain is that the Bible never says a) what the Mark of Cain actually looked like, only said what its function was, nor b) where on Cain's body the Mark appeared.)

The Nero interpretation thing might have bearing on the past, but not on the future. The principle of "dual reference" comes into play when one takes the position that a certain passage is meant to have two meanings at the same time, one for the time period in which the passage was written and one for the future. And "dual reference" is used frequently in Biblical interpretation, especially with passages which are deemed prophetic/dealing with the future. And in some instances, "dual reference" position is taken on passages which are deemed to deal simultaneously with 1) with the time period that the passage was written, and 2) the ancient past such as when God first created the heavens and the Earth. (So we are talking about some Bible passages which are flashbacks versus those which are flashforwards.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Opty View Post
Seems to me that most of the people who are afraid of the MotB, have no idea what it actually was/is,
But you do??

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Originally Posted by Opty View Post
so for them it could be about anything scary...but not scary enough to make them go read their Bibles and do any kind of research to educate themselves on what the MotB actually is. Apparently, it's more comforting to be scared than informed.
Okay, dude, here's what the Bible says. (Why did you make me hafta go and post scriptures?? Troublemaker! )

The word "mark" appear a total of seven times in the Book of Revelation.

Here are all seven of those instances. And after reading them, I cannot see any nother interpretation than the mark being a LITERAL mark. The only way it can't be literal is if 100% of Revelation is just poems and bad acid trips and picture symbols with no bearing on reality. If you wanna inpterpret Revelation that way, fine, you will not be alone iif you do. But millions of people do not, including more than a few posters here on this message form.

I also wanna point out that these passsages are among the all-time scariest shit the Bible has to offer. And so these passage are taken very seriously by a lot of Christians. Not all Christians believe these passages are literal, but many do.


Revelation 13:15-18
The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man.That number is 666


Revelation 14:8-11
A second angel followed and said, “‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great,’ which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.”A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.”

Revelation 16:1-3
Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.

Revelation 19:19-21
Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Revelation 20:1-5
And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain. He seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil, or Satan, and bound him for a thousand years. He threw him into the Abyss, and locked and sealed it over him, to keep him from deceiving the nations anymore until the thousand years were ended. After that, he must be set free for a short time.I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
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Old 12-04-2012, 01:36 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Opty View Post
Nope. The mark is a number ("666" or "616," depending on the translation source) that represents Nero (the "beast of the sea"). Some have claimed that the true "mark" was his official seal, some have claimed it was money (coins) with his image on it (when a person carried the coins, they were "carrying the mark of the beast").

My guess is that this story has been conflated by some Evangelicals and Protestants with the "mark" that God placed on Cain's forehead (to ensure no one would kill him for killing Abel), to where they think it is literally a mark that will be placed on people around the time of the Tribulation.


Seems to me that most of the people who are afraid of the MotB, have no idea what it actually was/is, so for them it could be about anything scary...but not scary enough to make them go read their Bibles and do any kind of research to educate themselves on what the MotB actually is. Apparently, it's more comforting to be scared than informed.
Of course, people in the time of Nero would have written 666 as "DCLXVI," from which we can see that its numerical-mystical significance was that it contained each "number" less than a thousand exactly and only once.

In other words, it's the Roman equivalent of 1,234,567,890.

What symbolism thhis has of Nero, I have no idea.

The RFID cards strike me as prissy and intrusive, but entirely in keeping with the extreme authoritarianism of the current pope and college of cardinals.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:12 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plot Device View Post
I am under the impression you have not actually read the Christian Bible's "Book of Revelation."
Your impression is quite false. As I've stated before, I grew up in a very conservative Restorationist Chrisitan home, attended a very conservative Restorationist church, and attended and graduated from a K-12 private Christian school that required daily bible classes and weekly, school-wide bible study devotionals. I have a 400 page commentary on the Book of Revelation and it was major focus of our study during my senior year of high school. Been studying the Bible in depth for 36 years now. I'm pretty sure I'm informed enough to speak on this.

Quote:
When one reads those passages where the Mark is mentioned, there is little or no conflation to the notion that the Mark is a literal marking of some kind which gets literally placed upon the literal physical bodily right hand and/or the forehead of millions of people all over the world.
Sure, if the "one" you refer to is some ill-informed Bible thumper who is reading this dream sequence as if it were literal. Which, I would definitely agree describes many of the Evangleical and Protestant notions of Revelation among the laymembers of those churches.

However, scholars who have actually taken the time to study this, know that it is a dream sequence and that John is not asserting that a physical "mark" will be placed on people but is likely referring to Roman money with Nero's image. How do they know this? One reason is because the Greek word (χάραγμα) that was erroneously translated to be "mark" in the King James Bible actually literally refers to something stamped on a coin.

Quote:
I am familiar with the interpretation of the Mark of Cain back in Genesis. But the funny thing about the Mark of Cain is that the Bible never says a) what the Mark of Cain actually looked like, only said what its function was, nor b) where on Cain's body the Mark appeared.)
True. However there was an ancient custom of symbolically expressing connections/covenants/relationships with dieties by marking one's face (a custom likely borrowed from Egypt). A popular example of this back then was marking or covering one's head with ash as a sign of repentance to the deity for transgressions against the god. This is continued today in a more modern context when Catholics and some Evangelicals mark their foreheads on Ash Wednesday.

So, you are correct that it does not state specifically what God's sign or mark for Cain was or where. However, ancient custom of the time Genesis was written suggests that it could be understood as a mark on his head.

Quote:
The Nero interpretation thing might have bearing on the past, but not on the future. The principle of "dual reference" comes into play when one takes the position that a certain passage is meant to have two meanings at the same time, one for the time period in which the passage was written and one for the future. And "dual reference" is used frequently in Biblical interpretation, especially with passages which are deemed prophetic/dealing with the future. And in some instances, "dual reference" position is taken on passages which are deemed to deal simultaneously with 1) with the time period that the passage was written, and 2) the ancient past such as when God first created the heavens and the Earth. (So we are talking about some Bible passages which are flashbacks versus those which are flashforwards.)
Perhaps, but most serious, credible scholars of the Book of Revelation regard it as being about Nero and the coming fall of Jerusalem, not a tome of end times. Unfortunately, believing that it's about the end of the world is sexier and more ingrained in the culture (just look at the success of the Left Behind series of books) as well as taught in churches by preachers who lack any real education in the subject (and, there are plenty of those out there).

Quote:
But you do??
Yes, I certainly do.

Quote:
Okay, dude, here's what the Bible says. (Why did you make me hafta go and post scriptures?? Troublemaker! )
I didn't make ou do anything, but I hope in reading the book more you'll come to a better understanding of what it actually is; a symbolic dream sequence expressing John's disdain of Nero and prediction of (or recounting of, depending on when you believe it was written) the fall of Jerusalem.

Quote:
The word "mark" appear a total of seven times in the Book of Revelation.
Yes, the word "mark" (as we understand the term) appears in the English translation but the word used in the original Koine refers specifically to an image stamped on coin money.

Also, the number 7 is used a lot in the book (as "7" represented God or spiritual perfection of some sort) to number things (e.g. 7 horned Lamb, 7 headed Beast, 7 headed dragon, 7 angels with trumpets, etc.), so it's likely not a coincidence that the word appears 7 times (I haven't counted, so I'll assume you're correct).

Quote:
Here are all seven of those instances. And after reading them, I cannot see any nother interpretation than the mark being a LITERAL mark.
I'm not sure why you're taking anything as literal in a story that was intentionally written to be symbolic and metaphorical.

Quote:
The only way it can't be literal is if 100% of Revelation is just poems and bad acid trips and picture symbols with no bearing on reality. If you wanna inpterpret Revelation that way, fine, you will not be alone iif you do. But millions of people do not, including more than a few posters here on this message form.
Not a bad acid trip...well, probably not, anyway....but it was definitely written to be symbolic. The Beast of the Sea (the antichrist) is widely believed to have been Nero or the Roman Empire in general (7 heads, each representing a different Roman emperor).

The "mark," as I said, likely represented the use of Roman money, which bared the emporer's face (Nero, at the time. He ruled in 66...OMG...that's one 6 away from 666!!!), especially given the fact that it had Nero's face on it, grpahically represented that he was divine (that was the propaganda of the time), and the Kione word translated as "mark" means an engraving on a coin.

This was also the time that Jews revolted and made their own money. So, if you had the "mark of the beast," you were carrying around Roman money instead of Jewish money and it likely meant you were not a Jew (God's chosen people, ya know!) or were a traitor.

Quote:
I also wanna point out that these passsages are among the all-time scariest shit the Bible has to offer. And so these passage are taken very seriously by a lot of Christians. Not all Christians believe these passages are literal, but many do.
They are only scary and taken literally by people who haven't studied it enough to know better and haven't read the books of Daniel and Zechariah thoroughly enough to know where John of Patmos stole borrowed much of his symbolism from.

Quote:
Revelation 13:15-18
The second beast was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that the image could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name. This calls for wisdom. Let the person who has insight calculate the number of the beast, for it is the number of a man. That number is 666.
These are the only verses I'll address because I don't have all night to spend on this. But, verses 15-17 are referring to using Roman money (they can't buy or sell unless they had the mark, etc.) rather than Jewish money.

In verse 18, John of Patmos (who is NOT John the Apostle or John the Baptist), is being coy and basically daring someone to decode his symbolic "666" ("calculate the number...") and figure out the specific person he's talking about ("the number of a man...666").

That number transliterates to Neron Caesar.

Of course, I take the preterist, historical interpretation of Revelation, which is currently the most widely accepted and logical view.

I know that some take a futurist, doom and gloom interpretation but, given the historical evidence, that seems to me to be more fueled by ignorance of the known research, fantastical thinking, and affinity to conspiracy theories.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alessandra Kelley View Post
Of course, people in the time of Nero would have written 666 as "DCLXVI," from which we can see that its numerical-mystical significance was that it contained each "number" less than a thousand exactly and only once.

In other words, it's the Roman equivalent of 1,234,567,890.

What symbolism thhis has of Nero, I have no idea.
That's because you're working from a false assumption of how these types of codes were written and intended to be translated:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_of...t#Neron_Caesar
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:24 AM   #9
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Opty, even though I agree with you about the dream sequence/human interpretations of Revelation, I don't think it's fair to say this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opty View Post
My guess is that this story has been conflated by some Evangelicals and Protestants with the "mark" that God placed on Cain's forehead (to ensure no one would kill him for killing Abel), to where they think it is literally a mark that will be placed on people around the time of the Tribulation.
And this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Opty View Post
Seems to me that most of the people who are afraid of the MotB, have no idea what it actually was/is, so for them it could be about anything scary...but not scary enough to make them go read their Bibles and do any kind of research to educate themselves on what the MotB actually is. Apparently, it's more comforting to be scared than informed.
And then, after Plot Device gives you actual scriptural passages, claim that people are reading it wrong or taking the advice of an ill-informed Bible thumper. People are entitled to their interpretations, and many who have read the passages have interepreted the MoTB similarly.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:26 AM   #10
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I always assumed that the book of Revelations was about the Jewish people and what happened after the apostasy. So something that's already happened. Much in line with Opty's version, though very undereducated in comparison. I never took much of revelation's seriously because so much of it seemed to be symbolism as much of the rest of the bible also seems to be for me too.
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Old 12-04-2012, 02:37 AM   #11
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FFS.

We're not going to do this here.
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