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Old 11-18-2012, 11:00 PM   #1
Jonathan.Bentz
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Valerian Root as a method of subduing

Hey all, its been a while since I've been on the boards (been moving into a new place and all the crazy stuff that comes with it). A thought popped into my head when I was researching sleep aids and I thought I'd see if anyone could tell me this, since a Google search turned up negligible data.

Valerian root, known as Valerin in a store setting, is a sleep aid from nature. From my understanding, in very strong doses it can induce unconsciousness fairly quickly, disorienting the subject first before they lose consciousness. I want the book I'm working on (in which the killer uses esoteric means to subdue his victims) to be fairly accurate, so I was wondering if anyone could suggest roughly what dosage would be used. Please note the killer is smart and therefore won't be ordering Valerian in its basic form, but going to a drug store and buying a supplement off the shelf. From what I can tell, a caplet of Valerian holds anywhere between 100-400 milligrams per capsule, depending on the quality of the extract.

My question is: how many of these caplets would be needed for the victim to at the least be disoriented? I'm assuming around 2-3000 milligrams, but I wonder if that's a bit high or low. Any help can be appreciated. I'm great as far as the rest of the 'esoteric means' are concerned, but this one is a concern and I didn't want to use something that everyone uses, GHB or Rohypnol.
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Old 11-18-2012, 11:16 PM   #2
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I think a lot will depend on the victims own health and tolerance to narcotics.

If I take 1 5MG of Valium, I am out in 20 minutes. My GF on the other hand can pop them like candy all day long and they do not affect her. She has a higher tolerance than I...

As to the story, if you can't google dosages, fake it and blame it on the victims lack of tolerance for such drugs. Especially if the victim is also using alcohol...
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:02 AM   #3
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Okay, thanks. What little I did get from Google says the extreme side effects (which include dizziness and drowsiness) appear once you hit 5400 MG, or close to it. So I'll just assume the thousands are the target range. Of course, I'm sure I'm once more on a watch-list thanks to that Google search. (I love saying this simply because I have to wonder how many budding writers end up on watchlists when they're first researching things....)
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:21 AM   #4
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You could try googling "LD-50 of valerian root" . It will probably be a ridiculously huge amount.

Good luck,
~STS~

p.s. The LD-50 of Valerian root is 6.8 grams / kilogram according to the first site I checked. You might want to double check that. So, if that's correct, roughly half of guys of weight 80 kg who receive 544 grams (that's 544,000 mg, I think) would croak.

Last edited by strictlytopsecret; 11-19-2012 at 12:27 AM.
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Old 11-19-2012, 12:46 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan.Bentz View Post
Of course, I'm sure I'm once more on a watch-list thanks to that Google search. (I love saying this simply because I have to wonder how many budding writers end up on watchlists when they're first researching things....)
Just Google a bunch of grammar related things later. That should shake Big Brother off your tail.

"False alarm, guys. Just another writer." *room fills with groans*
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Old 11-19-2012, 10:58 AM   #6
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It smells very strongly and tastes like absolute crap, so keep that in mind
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Old 11-19-2012, 11:20 AM   #7
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I take Valerian root when I am having anxiety issues, or need a gentle shove getting to sleep. I can definitely vouch for the awful smell and taste, so you need to keep that in mind. If you figure out an effective means for your killer to mask those, please pass it along so I don't have to keep gagging every time I open the bottle. :P

I'm not at home, but I believe I have the 450mg capsules and they may mix the Valerian with other herbs. A "calming blend." I take a half capsule if I am just combating the jitters or mild anxiety. I take at least one, but up to three, if I am trying to get to sleep. I believe the bottle says to take up to four in a 24 hour period. I do find it possible to "fight" sleep still. So, even at 3 pills, I still find that you have to relax a bit to get the desired effects.

I never feel drugged at those doses, though. I never feel out of it or loopy, it just helps me drift to sleep. I am not sure how many you would have to take to actually make someone feel drugged. To be honest, I feel more loopy taking four Tylenol PMs than I ever have taking Valerian root. That's part of the reason I switched over.

Here you go. This is a PDF of the label that I am pretty sure is the one I use. It says that you can take up to five: http://images.vitaminimages.com/cdn/...L003390-NB.PDF

I know that didn't answer your question, but hopefully it gives you some idea of an "average" users experience. I am not sure what would happen if you doubled it to 10. Would it just work faster, or give you the desired disoriented effect? I'm not sure. I do know that it would be a hell of a lot of powder or capsules for someone to have to ingest. You need to take that into account.

In all honesty, your killer might be better off using 5 or so Tylenol PMs and passing them off as street drugs or something.
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Old 11-19-2012, 02:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strictlytopsecret View Post
You could try googling "LD-50 of valerian root" . It will probably be a ridiculously huge amount.

Good luck,
~STS~

p.s. The LD-50 of Valerian root is 6.8 grams / kilogram according to the first site I checked. You might want to double check that. So, if that's correct, roughly half of guys of weight 80 kg who receive 544 grams (that's 544,000 mg, I think) would croak.
Is the killer planning on killing with valerian or subduing and killing by another means? Because LD-50 is the lethal dose in 50% of the population The effective dose is the ED-50. Safe drugs have a very big gap between ed-50 and ld-50.
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Old 11-19-2012, 09:31 PM   #9
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Yeah, when others are mentioning the smell, they're not kidding. We're talking stinky feet. It's vile. Just opening a bottle filled with gel caps is enough to make your eyes water.

Sadly, it tastes like feet as well. It's going to be hard to disguise from the vic.
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Old 11-20-2012, 12:02 AM   #10
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Maybe have your MC club their victim with a full bottle of stinky foot root extract until they fall unconscious. That'd be pretty novel.
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Old 11-20-2012, 04:38 AM   #11
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Quote:
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It smells very strongly and tastes like absolute crap, so keep that in mind
Exactly what I was going to say. There's no way you could slip someone Valerian without their notice. Also, a weird fact to keep in mind, if your victim is a redhead, you're going to have to amp up the dosage. The abnormality that creates redhair has a tendency to increase one's tolerance for anesthetics. Anecdotally, I can tell you this is true.

Valerian really isn't very strong. If you're needing something "natural," then you might want to piggyback it with high dose melatonin and L-tryptophan (a sort of trendy "natural" sleep cocktail at the moment, btw).
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