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Old 04-02-2012, 08:29 PM   #51
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Hit the nail right on the head. This basically is what I was refering too. Perhaps I should have made more of a focus in my article about the lack of maturity among men my age, rather than lack of masculinity.
Sorry, your repeated belittlement of what you consider "effeminate" men confused me a little. So you're cool with mature "feminine" (from your perspective) men?
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:42 PM   #52
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...
And we're certainly moving toward a time where men who trumpet the virtues of macho man manly manliness are ridiculed for overcompensating....
Oh, those words rang a bell. You don't think this is over the top, do ya?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO43p2Wqc08
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:47 PM   #53
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The misogyny thread gave us plenty of examples of grown ass men behaving like crass little boys because that's apparently all they know what to resort to. At various points in the past, this sort of thing was identifiable (though, of course, not at all excusable) as ignorance. That isn't so much the case anymore.
Thing is though, a lot of the misogynistic behaviour that I think* you're referring to stems from exactly the kinds of thinking that traditional masculine stereotypes that the OP's article seems to be crying out for. Old fashioned men might not have called women bitches, but they certainly embraced the notion that women were to be divided into types - the good wife, the innocent virgin, the slut. They may not have said whore to a woman's face, but they thought it.

The only difference as I see it, is that younger men these days who engage in that sort of behaviour embody the spirit of the old-fashioned views - the judgement of others, the entitlement, the rejection of difference - but without the veneer of manners. And also, notably, without general social approval of their attitudes.

*I'm guessing you're referring to the man-children of places like 4chan, with their entitlement issues and constant use of sexual, racial and homophobic slurs?
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:02 PM   #54
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Thing is though, a lot of the misogynistic behaviour that I think* you're referring to stems from exactly the kinds of thinking that traditional masculine stereotypes that the OP's article seems to be crying out for. Old fashioned men might not have called women bitches, but they certainly embraced the notion that women were to be divided into types - the good wife, the innocent virgin, the slut. They may not have said whore to a woman's face, but they thought it.

The only difference as I see it, is that younger men these days who engage in that sort of behaviour embody the spirit of the old-fashioned views - the judgement of others, the entitlement, the rejection of difference - but without the veneer of manners.

*I'm guessing you're referring to the man-children of places like 4chan, with their entitlement issues and constant use of sexual, racial and homophobic slurs?
I was actually thinking of Limbaugh, Maher, and specifically of an example Mac cited of misogyny from men on the left end of the political spectrum in response to Hilary Clinton's presidential campaign.

Of course, man-child places like 4chan also apply, but it's not like that sort of behavior is confined to festering pockets of the internet. The absence of the veneer of manners, in particular, carries over into real life. I know far too many guys who refer to "bitches" unthinkingly in casual conversation ("I was at McDonalds earlier and there was gorgeous bitch in line in front of me" -- actual quote from an asshole) like they're little boys trying to impress their buddies by overusing saying a naughty word. Hell, I went through a similar phase once. Then I turned 13. The guys I'm talking about are grown men with mortgages.

Regarding the veneer of manners, well, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. If you make yourself behave like a reasonably decent person in polite company, you might find it carrying over into your private life.

But beyond that, what I'm trying to say is that there's little reason for my generation to have so many men still clinging to brutish "old-fashioned views." I can't emphasize it enough that genuine ignorance is no excuse, but it was a reality. Example: A man who thought a woman couldn't be an effective employee, much less manager, in 1940 had very possibly never experienced being around a woman in the workplace. A guy in 2012 has likely spent his entire working life surrounded by women in the workplace. So if you're living in the 21st century and you're still resentful of your female boss solely because she is female, and all you can think to do is call her a bitch under your breath every time you disagree with her, then you're pretty much making a deliberate effort to be an immature brat in a grown man's body, and you need to grow the eff up.

I'd say that's one difference between then and now, and I think it's a valid criticism.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:06 PM   #55
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:08 PM   #56
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I think that is more an issue with entitlement than it is simple maturity. Entitlement issues are not solved with simple maturity, even if they are solved by acquiring a little wisdom and awareness of one's surroundings.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:32 PM   #57
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I think that is more an issue with entitlement than it is simple maturity. Entitlement issues are not solved with simple maturity, even if they are solved by acquiring a little wisdom and awareness of one's surroundings.
True. But when I think of mental and emotional maturity I think of wisdom and awareness, among other things.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:38 PM   #58
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One can be mature yet still be a fool.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:49 PM   #59
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Eh. I guess we're thinking of different things. I'm struggling to think of an example foolish behavior ("foolish" in the context of this discussion) that is also emotionally mature behavior.
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Old 04-02-2012, 09:53 PM   #60
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Ah, I get what you mean more, now.

And aye, I don't doubt the 4chan-dwelling man-children carry their crap over into the real world as well, but out here amongst the humans their antics are much less accepted.

Maturity itself may be a more difficult thing to attain these days, because I've found most people don't start maturing until they start experiencing real life. With a bad (albeit improving) job market, degrees becoming essential for jobs that don't need them making it necessary for people to delay entering the job-market full time, the resulting need for people to remain living with their parents long past the time when their parent's generation would already have had their first child... You end up with people trapped in a sort of perpetual childhood, where they still live under their parents' roof. Even those of us who've moved away like me, are often still dependent on occasional financial help from family.

When I think that my mum was a widow with a 3-year-old child and a mortgage at my age, and here I am unable to afford to buy my own nieces birthday presents, it's shaming. Even though I know my financial issues aren't the fault of personal bad budgeting or irresponsible spending or laziness.

I'm in my late twenties, and I can see a glaring difference in maturity, real-world knowledge and general understanding of How Life Works between my friends who have financial independence and those who don't. But I know plenty of immature people who aren't dickheads, and plenty of otherwise mature people who act like the world owes them.
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:28 PM   #61
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I'm a masculine woman. Where do I stand?
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Old 04-02-2012, 10:45 PM   #62
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Reminds me of a favorite Heinlein quote:

A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.

-Robert A. Heinlein
Specialization is where the jobs are. I have neither the time nor inclination to be a mechanic.

Nor do I understand why some people regard some skills as more "manly" than others.

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What do you know, I've done all those.
You've planned invasions and died gallantly?
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:17 PM   #63
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I'm a masculine woman. Where do I stand?
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:23 PM   #64
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Seriously though, the main problem with the article is the astonishingly Western-centric, super narrow definition of 'masculine'.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:24 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Robert A. Heinlein
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Specialization is where the jobs are. I have neither the time nor inclination to be a mechanic.

Nor do I understand why some people regard some skills as more "manly" than others.
As long as your specialty is in high demand, that'll probably work out fine for you. Some people dig the hive, some don't. I was an official specialist for most of my career, but learned to do all those things (absent the 'die gallantly part, that's still to be seen) at one point or another. If I had it to do over, I'd spend a lot less time in the hive.

I find it worthy of note that the Heinlein quote was used in reference to "a guy" not being able to fix a bicycle flat, when the quote starts "A human being..." -- and includes both cooking and diaper-changing among the skillset.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:32 PM   #66
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As long as your specialty is in high demand, that'll probably work out fine for you. Some people dig the hive, some don't.
What hive, exactly, do you mean?

What you say is true of most jobs.

Yes, it's good to have broad skills, but the denigration of specialization is patently stupid. We only have the technology that we do today because of specialization. I'd think a science fiction writer would be able to appreciate that, but I support not.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:35 PM   #67
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It's good to be a well rounded person, but specialization has its use too. Surgeons are pretty specialized. Particle physics is pretty specialized. Hell, writing itself is a specialization of itself.

I think the important is to be neither extreme, but rather strike for the middle path. Being a meh of all trades can be just as useless as being a hyper-specialized ant-man.

Unless you had the power to lift ten times your own body weight. Then you might as well cut the crap and become a superhero.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:40 PM   #68
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It's good to be a well rounded person, but specialization has its use too. Surgeons are pretty specialized. Particle physics is pretty specialized.
All science today is both highly specialized and strongly interdisciplinary.
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Old 04-02-2012, 11:50 PM   #69
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The whole idea of the Liberal Arts Education was to have a good grounding in everything and then take off into a specialization. Neither to be lacking in the specialized, nor confined to it.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:06 AM   #70
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Originally Posted by kuwisdelu View Post
You've planned invasions and died gallantly?
I died at the age of 32 and did so bravely without fear or crying. I got better after they cracked the crash cart.

As to planning an invasion, it just says to plan, not to have carried out. Since everything is a simulation until things are actually done, then simulations count, ergo table top Fantasy War Games and board games count. So under those rules, yes I have planned invasions. Since only very few will ever actually be a Field Marshall, I think that counts. However since dirty diapers do not require a special appointment, only the real ones count, no simulations there, same goes for butchering a hog.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:22 AM   #71
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Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
I died at the age of 32 and did so bravely without fear or crying. I got better after they cracked the crash cart.


That's awesome! Glad you're back, of course.
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Old 04-03-2012, 12:33 AM   #72
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Originally Posted by Don View Post
I find it worthy of note that the Heinlein quote was used in reference to "a guy" not being able to fix a bicycle flat, when the quote starts "A human being..." -- and includes both cooking and diaper-changing among the skillset.
Good catch. Heinlein didn't restrict it to men and I hestitated to post it because it wasn't male-centric. And he didn't mention fixing a flat but it's there in spirit

As I gradually turn into my dad, I can understand why some people are frightened to see the changes in men, women and society. That's been happening since before Aristotle's time.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:05 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuwisdelu View Post
Sorry, your repeated belittlement of what you consider "effeminate" men confused me a little. So you're cool with mature "feminine" (from your perspective) men?
I don't recall belittling anyone, and if I did, I'm sorry. But to answer your question, I have no issue with men who go against traditional masculinity. What I mourn is the lack of maturity among men of my age that I've encountered. My best friend from the army is an Army is an emotional bisexual, yet he's more of a man than any of the Micheal Cera/The Situation types.
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:18 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GeorgeK View Post
Since everything is a simulation until things are actually done, then simulations count, ergo table top Fantasy War Games and board games count.
I planned an invasion too...

But then my friend Jay used a drop pod to put a squad of sternguard Space Marines in my flanks and shot up my boyz! My Waaagh was short lived and very sad.

Since these were space orks, does this make me at least part Fungus in Heinlein's eyes?
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Old 04-03-2012, 10:51 PM   #75
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I just finished single handedly destroying a sentient alien race of supermachines a few weeks ago, and it was a *chore* to do so. Does that count toward my masculinity? I've also killed just about anything that walks, talks or crawls in a post-apocalyptic wasteland, and in a politically unstable northern province that needed a new king after the last High King was killed by a rebel faction leader. It's sweaty work!
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