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Old 11-14-2011, 05:20 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Michael Wolfe View Post
I think this is a decent and fair analysis, mostly. The one thing I'd like to know more about though is whether any kind of new vaccine is really worth developing.

.
The problem with vaccines is diseaes can and do mutate. As stated, smallpox has not been completely irradicated. The problem with many drug companies is they don't want to invest the time/money to develop vaccines of which the may never recoup the investment that goes into developing them. There are other more proffitable avenues for revenue.

As a hedge against the possiblity of a mutated strain of smallpox creating a world pandemic, I'd rather err on the side of public safety. Look how devasting smallpox was before we had mass international travel. It could be horrific if it regained the opportunity to kill millions of people.
Last edited by Elaine Margarett; 11-14-2011 at 05:29 PM. Reason: ...because I can't help it...
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Old 11-14-2011, 05:35 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by Elaine Margarett View Post
The problem with vaccines is diseaes can and do mutate. As stated, smallpox has not been completely irradicated. The problem with many drug companies is they don't want to invest the time/money to develop vaccines of which the may never recoup the investment that goes into developing them. There are other more proffitable avenues for revenue.

As a hedge against the possiblity of a mutated strain of smallpox creating a world pandemic, I'd rather err on the side of public safety. Look how devasting smallpox was before we had mass international travel. It could be horrific if it regained the opportunity to kill millions of people.
Elaine, in a teetering economy, I don't think it's wise to borrow problems, particularly when the problems are so manufactured as to be outlandish. I think it's cronyism and corruption. I can't think of any other explanation as to why money would be spent at a time like this on something so foreign to practical concerns. . . .
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:10 PM   #53
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http://lmgtfy.com/?q=tergiversate

It's difficult to sort through all the conflicting information, and even tougher to separate the flavor of one's own circumstances from that of the "common good", agreed.

This Admins. connection with Goldman Sachs alone is highly questionable, imo. but add in Solyndra and Perelman & the Xmas tree tax Fast & Furious Mexico deal and it all goes beyong the pale for me. Personally, I can't help but feel tricked out of the "hope & change" promised since this prez has been all talk + a few dead guys, all to the determent of the average guy, of which I am one. I'd feel more secure if I had a President I could trust.
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Note: the "Christmas tree tax" was a bullshit story.
No problem. I'm willing to replace it with this bit of outrageousness and an error to be named later:

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. . . the program that allowed guns to go untracked into the hands of Mexican drug cartels. He [Eric Holder] says he acted responsibly.

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/nov...older-20111109
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Honestly, if this is not meant to be a seven thousand pound wheel of cheese, what is it?
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:18 PM   #54
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Originally Posted by Bird of Prey View Post
Elaine, in a teetering economy, I don't think it's wise to borrow problems, particularly when the problems are so manufactured as to be outlandish. I think it's cronyism and corruption. I can't think of any other explanation as to why money would be spent at a time like this on something so foreign to practical concerns. . . .
Now, I see this as money well spent. What I don't agree with spending money on are outlandish civilian contractors who bill (and overbill) the taxpayers for millitary contracts. Let's get our military spending under control. Getting out of a trillion dollar war that the previous admin got us into, is a start. What a waste of money and human life!

Any one got a dollar amount on that??

Elaine,
who worked as a civillan contractor for the military fighting that global war on terror. Want to know how many dead people I saw? Too many to count.
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:20 PM   #55
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Heh:

Quote:
But the federal contract required that the winning bidder be a small business, with no more than 500 employees. Chimerix Inc., a North Carolina company that had competed for the contract, protested, saying Siga was too big.

Officials at the Small Business Administration investigated and quickly agreed, finding that Siga's affiliation with MacAndrews & Forbes disqualified it.

The Obama administration could have awarded the contract to Chimerix as the only eligible small-business applicant. Or it could have reopened the competition to companies of any size.

Instead, the administration moved to block all companies — except Siga — from bidding on a second offering of the contract.
This whole thing is bad joke. The drug Siga is making has a short shelf-life--38 months--which means it will get a cash cow every three years. Forever.

And it would seem that FDA approval of the drug is a bit of a pipe dream, as well.

Siga stock: http://seekingalpha.com/symbol/siga

Look at the five-year chart. People have already made a bundle. So even if this deal gets the axe, the gambit worked.

Me, I'm gonna wait for it to completely bottom out from all the bad press, then buy it dirt cheap after the outrage has subsided...there was a House memo on this strategy.
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:22 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elaine Margarett View Post
Now, I see this as money well spent. What I don't agree with spending money on are outlandish civilian contractors who bill (and overbill) the taxpayers for millitary contracts. Let's get our military spending under control. Getting out of a trillion dollar war that the previous admin got us into, is a start. What a waste of money and human life!

Any one got a dollar amount on that??

Elaine,
who worked as a civillan contractor for the military fighting that global war on terror. Want to know how many dead people I saw? Too many to count.
I certainly agree regarding civilan contractors and military spending. The smallpox issue is where we disagree. . . .
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Old 11-14-2011, 06:54 PM   #57
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I'm guessing a few opinions would differ if this had happened in the Bush years. Just a WAG, of course.
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Old 11-14-2011, 07:04 PM   #58
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I'm guessing a few opinions would differ if this had happened in the Bush years. Just a WAG, of course.
Check this story out, from last year: http://cnsnews.com/news/article/new-...ram-may-be-cut

Quote:
In an email to The Los Angeles Times, Obama White House spokesman Nick Shapiro said Project BioShield "has demonstrated limited success in providing incentive for private-sector (vaccine) developers and has not provided a robust pipeline of medical countermeasures."


So according to the Obama admin, the program sucks except when one of their buddies gets to use it...



High comedy.
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Old 11-14-2011, 08:27 PM   #59
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This obsessive quest (which has never surfaced for any other political figure) has led to a series of posts, day after day, week after week, month after month.
.
As an observer, I never would have assumed William's quest to be obsessive regarding specifically Obama. Instead I see him pointing out flaws in those who wield power, including previous administrations, no more, no less.
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Old 11-14-2011, 08:34 PM   #60
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And when it comes to root beer, I take Barques, not Mug. Mug is awful. (As are most Pepsi products)
Barq's used to be so much better before they went to corn syrup and watered down flavor. Now I think IBC can give them a run, but soft drinks today are so sweet and otherwise flavorless compared to last century that I don't bother anymore. If you want the real thing anymore you have to brew your own. It takes some time and effort, but you will be rewarded. Double the amount of suggested extract and reduce the sugar by 1/3, then we're talking!
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Old 11-14-2011, 08:57 PM   #61
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In an email to The Los Angeles Times, Obama White House spokesman Nick Shapiro said Project BioShield "has demonstrated limited success in providing incentive for private-sector (vaccine) developers and has not provided a robust pipeline of medical countermeasures." .
What I take away from this is that vaccine developers don't want to develop vaccines that don't have broad commercial appeal. From a business standpoint it's a no brainer. Thus the necessity for providing incentives in order to have vaccines on hand. Everyone fears the nuclear bomb. What about the smallpox virus in the hands of terrorists? It's a national security issue.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:12 PM   #62
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I have a man crush. You have a man hate.
I don't hate Obama. I'll defend him when I think he's right, be against him when I think he's wrong and make fun of him because well... that's just what I do to everyone.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:17 PM   #63
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I don't hate Obama. I'll defend him when I think he's right, be against him when I think he's wrong and make fun of him because well... that's just what I do to everyone.
Exactly. You're like the Jon Stewart of AW.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:19 PM   #64
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As an observer, I never would have assumed William's quest to be obsessive regarding specifically Obama. Instead I see him pointing out flaws in those who wield power, including previous administrations, no more, no less.
Gotta say I'm with Rugcat on this one.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:21 PM   #65
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Originally Posted by Elaine Margarett View Post
What I take away from this is that vaccine developers don't want to develop vaccines that don't have a broad commercial appeal. From a buisness standpoint it's a no brainer. Thus the neccessity for providing incentives in order to have vaccines on hand. Everyone fears the nuclear bomb. What about the smallpox virus in the hands of terrorists? It's a national security issue.
did you read the part of the article that said we already have enough smallpox vaccines for every man, woman and child in the country?

and did you read the part about how this (untested, untestable, unproven vaccine) is only for edge-cases in which someone doesn't get their other vaccine in time?

and did you read the follow up that rob provided that says it's only got a 3.5 year shelf-life anyway?

if so, please post again why this is a "national security issue"?

hint: "because obama and his fat-cat donor say so" is not a valid answer.
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Old 11-14-2011, 09:33 PM   #66
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hint: "because obama and his fat-cat donor say so" is not a valid answer.
No, but it's the only honest answer. . . .
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Old 11-14-2011, 11:31 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Elaine Margarett View Post
What I take away from this is that vaccine developers don't want to develop vaccines that don't have broad commercial appeal. From a business standpoint it's a no brainer. Thus the necessity for providing incentives in order to have vaccines on hand. Everyone fears the nuclear bomb. What about the smallpox virus in the hands of terrorists? It's a national security issue.
If you read the entire article in the op, you'll see that initially, this job was farmed out to small businesses, only (federal def: less than 500 employees). I'd bet dollars to donuts that this was to keep from lining the pockets of "Big Pharm." But when Siga got the contract and it was pointed out that the company doesn't meet the "small business" criteria, the admin changed the game and excluded other bids, based on their claim that only Siga could deliver in five years, and that was somehow critical.

But...if it truly is so critical, then prudence would dictate giving the bid to a company that can deliver it the quickest. And that would land the bid in Big Pharm land.

So, the idea that the time table is so critical is disingenuous, to say the least. The admin limited the bidding to keep it out of the hands of larger companies and in the hands of Siga, then had to make some shit up when that went bad.

This seems to be a pretty clear case of cronyism and corruption. And while it's true that such is nothing new in DC, it--once again--puts the lie to the idea that Obama is something new.
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Old 11-15-2011, 01:00 AM   #68
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Originally Posted by Vince524 View Post
I don't hate Obama. I'll defend him when I think he's right, be against him when I think he's wrong and make fun of him because well... that's just what I do to everyone.
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Exactly. You're like the Jon Stewart of AW.
That's right. It also means you're Canadian and not funny either.

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hint: "because obama and his fat-cat donor say so" is not a valid answer.
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No, but it's the only honest answer. . . .
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Old 11-15-2011, 05:44 AM   #69
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...

2. If not, would it make sense to just create more from the old recipe, or would the disease have mutated too much by now?

...
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Originally Posted by Elaine Margarett View Post
The problem with vaccines is diseaes can and do mutate. As stated, smallpox has not been completely irradicated. The problem with many drug companies is they don't want to invest the time/money to develop vaccines of which the may never recoup the investment that goes into developing them. There are other more proffitable avenues for revenue.

As a hedge against the possiblity of a mutated strain of smallpox creating a world pandemic, I'd rather err on the side of public safety. Look how devasting smallpox was before we had mass international travel. It could be horrific if it regained the opportunity to kill millions of people.
Considering that at least some of the samples of smallpox still existing likely have been weaponized, we probably do need a new vaccine. I'd say we should certainly bet on the disease having mutated or, rather, having been mutated.
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Old 11-15-2011, 06:55 AM   #70
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That's right. It also means you're Canadian and not funny either.
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:07 AM   #71
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Ever since I mentioned beer in this thread, I've been thinking the title is a great setup for a joke.

Obama, Perelman and Smallpox walk into a bar...
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Old 11-15-2011, 07:13 AM   #72
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Ever since I mentioned beer in this thread, I've been thinking the title is a great setup for a joke.

Obama, Perelman and Smallpox walk into a bar...
Oh great, another beer summit.

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Old 11-15-2011, 07:16 AM   #73
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Considering that at least some of the samples of smallpox still existing likely have been weaponized, we probably do need a new vaccine. I'd say we should certainly bet on the disease having mutated or, rather, having been mutated.
How do the vaccine makers tailor the product to respond to possible mutations, though? Presumably the info on these mutations would be unknown to them, right?

Disclaimer: My apologies if this is a dumb question. I know very little about medicine, admittedly.
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Old 11-15-2011, 04:47 PM   #74
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Well, they can guess. Or throw darts.

But that's all inconsequential. What Siga is developing isn't a new vaccine to fight new strains of Smallpox, it's a means of treating people past the four-day window for the vaccine we already have. And--as the article notes--it's gonna be tough to test on people...
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Old 11-16-2011, 06:56 AM   #75
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How do the vaccine makers tailor the product to respond to possible mutations, though? Presumably the info on these mutations would be unknown to them, right?

Disclaimer: My apologies if this is a dumb question. I know very little about medicine, admittedly.
How the hell should I know? I'm not Jonas Salk.

To be serious, the CDC and NIH are government organizations. If vaccination against potential bioweapons is seen, as I think it should be, as a national security matter as well as a public health matter, then medical science will get the info they need.
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