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Old 07-30-2011, 05:28 AM   #76
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Then perhaps Diana and I will be moving to France soon.
Me three?!
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<-- organic, non-GMO popcorn with organic salted butter
and I'll raise you my dried fruit from Trader Joe's. (I'm not crazy about the mangoes, they kind of taste like the lining of a shoe.)
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:54 AM   #77
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I agree that SF's regulations are slightly crazy (that's SF for you), but...

Trying to deregulate food is a nightmare. I lived in HK for a year. Virtually every week there was a new food we couldn't eat thanks to what various farmers were doing in an attempt to make more money.

My favorite was adding carcinogens to eggs. Why, you ask, would someone do that? Why, to make the yolks yellower of course.

Some goofy stuff happens when regulations are lax. Just saying...
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:02 AM   #78
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As long as the ones doing the eating are signing the waivers then I don't see a problem.
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:41 AM   #79
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I agree that SF's regulations are slightly crazy (that's SF for you), but...

Trying to deregulate food is a nightmare. I lived in HK for a year. Virtually every week there was a new food we couldn't eat thanks to what various farmers were doing in an attempt to make more money.

My favorite was adding carcinogens to eggs. Why, you ask, would someone do that? Why, to make the yolks yellower of course.
Sudan Red G, a fat-soluble yellowish red lysochrome azo dye, related to a number of dyes used in artists' pigments (do not get me started), and according to the European Food Safety Authority, a known carcinogen. Also found adulterating some paprikas in India. Yum yum.
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:50 AM   #80
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Sudan Red G, a fat-soluble yellowish red lysochrome azo dye, related to a number of dyes used in artists' pigments (do not get me started), and according to the European Food Safety Authority, a known carcinogen. Also found adulterating some paprikas in India. Yum yum.
And used in histopathology to stain tissue sections.
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Old 07-30-2011, 06:51 AM   #81
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Hmm. It seems "food rave" is an unfortunate comparison to mainstream food production and distribution. A "regular" rave is essentially a "private" (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) party where drugs are used - drugs that aren't inspected nor approved by the FDA (actually some of them may be, but they're being used "off label").
I think "food rave" just sounds like, "we're trying to sound hip, but we're super square."
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Old 07-30-2011, 07:01 AM   #82
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Originally Posted by Celia Cyanide View Post
I think "food rave" just sounds like, "we're trying to sound hip, but we're super square."
Wait -- are you saying foodies aren't hip? My whole world has just come crashing down.

Alessandra, who from Dungeons and Dragons to Doctor Who has never been in any tiny remote way whatsoever nohow hip.
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Old 07-30-2011, 07:06 AM   #83
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I think "food rave" just sounds like, "we're trying to sound hip, but we're super square."
Unless, of course, they're taking drugs that actually make them hallucinate to the point that stuff like this is actually palatable.

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Old 07-30-2011, 08:21 AM   #84
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Maybe they should double-check their mushrooms.
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Old 07-30-2011, 04:18 PM   #85
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I want to repeat:

I think the USDA and the FDA are two very much NEEDED agencies. Food MUST be regulated to protect the consumers from adulterated food.

But I am annoyed right now at the insane amount of time, money, energy, and overall governmental resources being mustered against small-time operators who are perectly legitimate, while the giant food interests are getting away with heinous crimes against food and against the unsuspecting public.

Here's another prime example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIwx3nVIRsU

That YouTube video exposes how the US meat packing industry got approval from the FDA back in 2004 to employ the flushing of carbon monoxide gas into consumer-destined packages of raw fresh meat. The carbon monoxide tricks out the chemical state of the meat so that the meat LOOKS fresh (stays pink and red looking) for weeks longer than it really is. That means we consumers can no longer rely upon the visual appearance of a fesh package of raw meat while its in the plastic to determine if it's still good. The current percentage of cabon monoxide-flushed meat packages found in the American consumer market place is 70% of all fresh meat packages. And the meat packagers are NOT required by law to label their prepackaged meat offerings as being flushed with the carbon monoxide.

The usage of carbon monoxide gas is a Big Agri practice. No small time Mom & Pop butchering operations do this. Only the giant factory meat packing houses do this.

They were able to get away with this by convincing the FDA that carbon monixide was "harmless" and therefore deserved to be put onto a special FDA-kept list of ingredients and additives called the GRAS List (pronounced "grass list") which stands for "generally regarded recognized as safe." That list is the magic list which --as soon as your $900-per-hour lobbyist lawyer can convince the FDA to get a given ingredient onto it-- allows your giant food factory to employ an ingredient with reckless abandon. In the past 15 years, some really sick shit has been allowed onto that list --including ammonia, which is the key ingredient in Pink Slime. Almost anything on the GRAS list does NOT have to be listed as an ingredient on the regular ingredients label, nor does it need a special warning label slapped onto the front of the packaging. So the GRAS list has become a free-for-all for Big Agri to exploit.

The FDA used to be our friend. The USDA used to be our protectors. They are now both owned by Big Agri, and instead of looking out for us, those two government agencies are conducting raids on Amish farmers and small time health food stores.
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Old 07-30-2011, 05:49 PM   #86
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The FDA used to be our friend. The USDA used to be our protectors. They are now both owned by Big Agri, and instead of looking out for us, those two government agencies are conducting raids on Amish farmers and small time health food stores.
And PD once again explains, in detail, why the second segment of my signature exists.


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Although I guess if you're part of Big Business, the state is quite often helpful and protective. The vision just doesn't apply to individuals.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:37 PM   #87
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People always say callous stuff like that -- until they're the ones puking and in pain.
In fairness, I was speaking about a couple...meaning, according to Webster: "a pair of things or people". It seemed self-evident and an easy choice.
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Old 07-30-2011, 10:43 PM   #88
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Then perhaps Diana and I will be moving to France soon.
Speaking of agriculture, how's the pot there?
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:12 AM   #89
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In fairness, I was speaking about a couple...meaning, according to Webster: "a pair of things or people". It seemed self-evident and an easy choice.
A choice been between what and what? A couple dead kids, and...laws that regulate safe food? Why does the former look like a better option?
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:13 AM   #90
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Wait -- are you saying foodies aren't hip? My whole world has just come crashing down.
Foodies are hip. What's not hip is having a bake sale and pretending it's an underground rave party. It's like inviting some friends over for Twister and calling it an orgy.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:31 AM   #91
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For all those pissing and moaning about permits, they're needed. I work with sanitarians who do inspections of eateries and other restaurants and they see some pretty crazy shit.

Here's the thing. Demanding insurance and permitting is needed. Wait until you go to some roach coach taco truck, and end up getting salmonella. You end up with thousands in medical bills, and you're screwed because the person operating the truck didn't have insurance.

These types of liability laws are around for a reason, and that's because they provide a source of revenue to pay for inspectors, and because they keep people from dying.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:36 AM   #92
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For all those pissing and moaning about permits, they're needed. I work with sanitarians who do inspections of eateries and other restaurants and they see some pretty crazy shit.

Here's the thing. Demanding insurance and permitting is needed. Wait until you go to some roach coach taco truck, and end up getting salmonella. You end up with thousands in medical bills, and you're screwed because the person operating the truck didn't have insurance.

These types of liability laws are around for a reason, and that's because they provide a source of revenue to pay for inspectors, and because they keep people from dying.
Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Another thing. The town I worked in was dying. There were loads of vacant spaces that would've made great restaurants/cafes/eateries/takeaways. If the proprietors of the roach coaches, tamale peddlers and hot dog merchants really were serious about their business, they could've easily rented one of these spaces out, especially those already fitted out with proper kitchens, etc. They were just looking for a way to make an easy buck without having to comply with regulations and pay their dues.

As I said upthread, I sure as hell wouldn't want a dodgy fish taco dished out from a truck that's been standing in 110F heat all damn day.
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Old 07-31-2011, 12:59 AM   #93
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That's a big part of it, I think. I mean a thousand bucks, is a high hurdle to clear for a small business, but it's not really any different than if started up any other kind of business.

The reason there's so much crying over this, is that a food stand can make HUGE $$ for next to no investment. Seriously, I've done stuff with the lions club back when I lived in Michigan, and we could make a few grand a day at a festival selling burgers and brats. Sad to say a lot of times the permitting requirements/booth fees, do keep out the trash (the permits weren't even much money, like a 100 bucks a year).

For those advocating allowing street vendors to peddle their wares, would you allow a doctor to work without regulation by the Joint Commission? How about a guy claiming to be a Lawyer without passing the bar? Or an engineer designing your bridge without his P.E. license? Having to pay fees so that inspectors ensure you're doing your job is a price of business, and the folks who are actual professionals, appreciate the role regulators play because it keeps the hucksters out of their profession.

If you want to open a taco stand, pay for the permit, and fly it on your cart to differentiate yourself from everyone else. I for one, will not eat at a restaurant if I see outdated permits and licenses.
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Old 07-31-2011, 03:47 AM   #94
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Yeah, like our bodies aren't already made up of chemicals, anyway...
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Old 07-31-2011, 08:59 PM   #95
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For all those pissing and moaning about permits, they're needed. I work with sanitarians who do inspections of eateries and other restaurants and they see some pretty crazy shit.
.
As PD has been trying to point out, the problem isn't in the existence of the regulations, it's in the inequitible way that they are applied. In the case of scrapie and mad cow inspections, the big agro corps can buy, "Lot Permits," which exempt them from all inspection from the weaning crate to the plastic package in the butcher case, even though they are the ones most likely to cause a food borne nightmare. They also exempt them from all tagging and tracking regulations.

The USDA targeting insignificant microcosms is a smoke screen to make it look like they actually do their job. To a certain point, they aren't allowed to do their real job because of things like Lot Permits. It's Big Agro pocketting politicians. Our taxes go to big agro disguised as subsidies which then go to politicians coffers as campaign contributions, thus ingratiating the politicians to the corporations even more where they retire after office onto the compainies' payrolls as consultants, lobbyists and board members.

Always follow the money. Politicians are not retiring from office as millionaires because of frugal living and government salaries.

Last edited by GeorgeK; 07-31-2011 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:12 PM   #96
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I still want to know how you all know the big food producers are "the ones most likely to cause a food borne nightmare."

When was the last time we had a food supply system that was significantly comprised of unregulated street vendors or road side stands? When was the last time we had a food selling system that required no licensing, in which anyone could just roll out a wagon and start selling food to the public without a permit or inspections?

Many people tack disclaimers onto their arguments, but they still cast these small, individual producers as if their products are certain to be free of contamination, as if merely being produced by a small farmer or individual cook/seller is itself a sign of purity.

It is true that factory farming, concentrated slaughterhouse enterprises, reshipping of produce, and virtual slave labor for harvesting all contribute to the risk of contamination in the food supply.

But recently there was an outbreak of a tomato blight in the northeast that affected the whole crop but was spread inadvertently by private growers and gardeners. E. coli, salmonella, and such bacteria are endemic in the environment, and there is no reason at all to believe that small producers will be less exposed to them than big commercial producers.

Finally, in light of the fact that some people in this thread have suggested that a few deaths from food contamination are acceptable in the name of freedom, just how many people are killed annually or so by Big Agri? Proportionally, the food supply systems of the first world -- US, North America, Europe -- are significantly safer than in the third world and significantly safer than they were before the 20th century and the advent of Big Agra.

There is a lot to fault big commercial farming and the mass food industry, no doubt. There are a lot of bad practices to be eliminated, a lot breaking of monopolies to do, and a lot of work for regulators to get to.

But the argument that these big producers are "the ones most likely to cause a food borne nightmare" just does not seem to be supported by the history of the past century.
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:21 PM   #97
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I'm having a hard time seeing how the FDA's and USDA's relationship with Big Ag has anything to do with whether it's a good idea to require restaurants to have permits and safety inspections (which are handled by local governments).
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Old 07-31-2011, 09:31 PM   #98
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That, too. It's too easy to lose sight of all the tiers and bodies of separate authorities involved in permitting and licensing.
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:00 PM   #99
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This Chicago business just got barred from its lucrative contract supplying food to Chicago festivals because of its health violations. There are some yucky details if you click the link, but it's basically a Chicago Tribune news story. It's appalling stuff, but we do have rules, laws and protocols for dealing with it. Thank goodness.
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Old 07-31-2011, 11:08 PM   #100
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Is there something screwy with the cyber-environment inside this one particular thread whereby the printing of every day English onto computer screens seems to get repeatedly misunderstood?

No one seems to hear me, and Don, and Diana, and George when we say: "The complaint is not about regulation, it's about inequitable regulation."

I don't want to keep re-posting the same thing again and again. So I won't. I've already got a dozen posts in this thread so far. Why should I bother with two dozen? The prior 12 should suffice.
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