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Old 12-30-2011, 03:08 AM   #20776
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Good luck with things, Ally.
So what are your New Years Resolutions, guys? Can't believe NYE is tomorrow!
My writerly one is to finish at least one WIP in 2012. I didn't actually start anything new this year, and I didn't finish anything either. :s
Wait...what? Oh, Australia lol. It's still the 29th here. Mine are: have no regrets, get a 4.0 my spring semester, revise Cardinal Three, start riding again, and read 50 books.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:13 AM   #20777
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All the best to achieving those goals HR!
Hi Akasha!
I'm stuck in road trip madness right now. Roaming Internet is the only thing keeping me sane!
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:14 AM   #20778
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I'm defensive only because i cant fix it myself. After 9 years of trying and then getting tested and finding out I cant I am only simply looking for a way around my issues. Tried fixing it myself, tired looking for betas who dont care about grammar. Found one and then my mom but that was it. This all started out explaining why i was frustrated today when i realized i had no real results after writing so long. Not asking anyone here to fix my grammar or beta. Although thank you for the offer Ivi! Just explaining my issues because that's where the conversation led.
I'm with you 100%, and on that note, I owe you an apology.

For a long time I didn't understand that you have a genuine disability. Spelling and grammar are obvious to me, so I assumed that anyone with bad spelling just needed to work harder. I've come to understand that you can't fix a disability just by working harder. It's not a matter of attitude or effort - that's like telling a blind person that they obviously aren't trying hard enough to see. I now appreciate how insensitive my comments must have been, and I'd like to apologise. I was an ass, and I'm sorry.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:15 AM   #20779
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Let's see if I can think of some.... Hike Angel's Landing (which I've never been able to do), get at least a 3.5 if not 4.0, have AM ready for and sent to Betas, and have finished at least the first draft of Cry Me A River (very much working title ) done.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:15 AM   #20780
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:16 AM   #20781
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Hi, Missus.

I think in future, I shall do the soundtracks based on what I'm listening to when a character starts talking to me. Haha.

Just out of curiousity, what sort of things would you beta, HR?
Anything that I would like to read. I'd prefer something shorter (just because it's Christmas break and I don't beta during the school year). Oh, and I have a rule against first drafts. Genre-wise, I'll consider anything YA but I don't generally do thrillers/horror/paranormal. The first two because I just don't read them very much so I don't have a lot experience with them, the third because I'm just sick of seeing it.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:18 AM   #20782
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OK, just wondering. I'm always making mental lists of possible betas and I think I'm one of those people who needs someone to kick their ass to get them to finish something, lol.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:22 AM   #20783
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I think you're missing the point. I don't know if you have too much telling in your book; I haven't read your book. That was an example of advice we've given you that you've disregarded. It was an example of why I don't know if I could beta read your book because I don't know if you'd consider my advice.
oh i understood what you said differently. What your saying is i should listen to people saying dont tell, but show? Got it now.

Before i just stating i dont see the problem with some telling. I'm glad to see i'm not the only one, since Kat kind of agreed with me. Wasnt saying i wouldnt take your advice. I used to tell alot more, whole pages in fact, cut that all out now.

Funny thing is the one beta that read it. During one part that Ally has a flip out on Ericka because she finds out she is the reason she was bullied. My beta said that she didnt realize the she was that bullied, and ironically i cut that all out leaving it only stated a few times because i was told it was too telly before. Cant win man! It made me laugh actually.

I do have a question for everyone though. Do you think non-writing people notice telling vs. showing? I was having a long conversation with some friends one day while we got sidetracked during a study group (clearly we didnt get much studying done) I brought up if they noticed that stuff and they really had no idea what i was talking about, so i gave examples and they told me they didnt care about it. Also ended up talking about some other guidelines/rules. Like if a MC can be over 18 in YA. Different genre rules, like on length and stuff. And other general topics. My friends are pretty well read on different books and they were a little bit shocked there were so many rules/guidelines and told me they never really noticed when there put in action.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:33 AM   #20784
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I'm with you 100%, and on that note, I owe you an apology.

For a long time I didn't understand that you have a genuine disability. Spelling and grammar are obvious to me, so I assumed that anyone with bad spelling just needed to work harder. I've come to understand that you can't fix a disability just by working harder. It's not a matter of attitude or effort - that's like telling a blind person that they obviously aren't trying hard enough to see. I now appreciate how insensitive my comments must have been, and I'd like to apologise. I was an ass, and I'm sorry.
Wow, thank you, no real need to apologize but thanks!
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:40 AM   #20785
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oI do have a question for everyone though. Do you think non-writing people notice telling vs. showing? I was having a long conversation with some friends one day while we got sidetracked during a study group (clearly we didnt get much studying done) I brought up if they noticed that stuff and they really had no idea what i was talking about, so i gave examples and they told me they didnt care about it. Also ended up talking about some other guidelines/rules. Like if a MC can be over 18 in YA. Different genre rules, like on length and stuff. And other general topics. My friends are pretty well read on different books and they were a little bit shocked there were so many rules/guidelines and told me they never really noticed when there put in action.
This is going to be a little bit of a biased response because I realized that all of my reader friends are also writers.

One thing I would like to point out about non-writers is they don't know the rules. They might not like a book that doesn't follow the rules because of that, but not be able to explain why.

Another thing I would like to point out is that rules with age and length have more to do with marketing. It's recommended to write books over 50k and under 100k because that's what sells well. Anything under 50k borders on novella territory and those are very tough sells. Anything over 100k and people begin to wonder if the book really needs to be that long or if it's just going to be drawn out. (Example: Eragon. A lot of people use that as an example of a book that sells well and is long. But did it really need to be that long? No.) The rules regarding age have more to do with relating to the expected reader market. Do I agree with the fact that there is no market for college-age MCs? No. But I accept that it's a fact of the market right now and hope that someday, there will be a market for college-age fiction.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:42 AM   #20786
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Anything that I would like to read. I'd prefer something shorter (just because it's Christmas break and I don't beta during the school year). Oh, and I have a rule against first drafts. Genre-wise, I'll consider anything YA but I don't generally do thrillers/horror/paranormal. The first two because I just don't read them very much so I don't have a lot experience with them, the third because I'm just sick of seeing it.
hahaha you wouldn't like mine then anyway!

Just for mental lists. I read during the summer May-Aug. Genres: Horror,thriller, mystery, paranormal(without romance), Urban Fantasy, Light Fantasy. Anything rather disturbing or mind twisty.
Don't do: Romance, contemporary (like about some normal kid and there problems) heavy fantasy (not really into alot of magic and stuff) Erotic stuff... but i guess that goes along with romance.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:42 AM   #20787
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I haven't finished this scene, but I'm going to go to bed soon.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:49 AM   #20788
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I was supposed to do some writing or at least start some of my homework, but then...I popped in the second season of Castle, and got distracted.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:51 AM   #20789
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This scene has been kicking my ass for two nights now. I will finish it later (It's 12:21 in the morning). For now, it is bed time.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:56 AM   #20790
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Yeah just got me thinking. For example my one friend loved Twilight, thought it was the best written book alive. Another friend was a big fan of all of Dan Browns work. And although i've never read there books i know that both authors and there works are not very respected by writers. Then there was another friend who was obsessed with Harry Potter, and when we were talking about these rules/guidelines, she was pointing out where they were broken in HP. (Again only read the first book so i dont know but she read them a million times so i trust she is right.)

just got me thinking. Maybe non-writers really dont notice the stuff we work so hard to avoid.
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Old 12-30-2011, 03:58 AM   #20791
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Ally, to answer your question, I think they do, but they wouldn't recognise telling as telling; or use those terms. Most action scenes for example rely a lot on showing and immediacy. People generally like action scenes, and their favourite parts are these parts.
There's many components to engaging your reader - and technique is the fundamentals.The things most people may not think about, but it's so important.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:10 AM   #20792
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Yeah just got me thinking. For example my one friend loved Twilight, thought it was the best written book alive. Another friend was a big fan of all of Dan Browns work. And although i've never read there books i know that both authors and there works are not very respected by writers. Then there was another friend who was obsessed with Harry Potter, and when we were talking about these rules/guidelines, she was pointing out where they were broken in HP. (Again only read the first book so i dont know but she read them a million times so i trust she is right.)

just got me thinking. Maybe non-writers really dont notice the stuff we work so hard to avoid.
The thing with Twilight is not only is not very respected among writers...it's not really respected anywhere outside of the young teenage girl market.

I've never read Dan Brown's work, but a major part of the popularity is the fact that he's controversial.

Does Harry Potter break the "rules"? Yes. A lot. The longer I'm a writer, the more I notice it. But the difference is with Harry Potter it works. Rowling is such a great story teller that you don't notice the writing. Also she gets better with each book. The writing in Deathly Hallows is better than the writing in Sorcerer's Stone.

The reason why telling is so warned against is because it can be flat to read and mess with the pacing. Done wrong, it distracts from the story. This is true for most -- if not all -- of the rules of writing. Everything is warned against for a reason.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:16 AM   #20793
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No that was my thought to! But you know i'm starting to think differently.

You see the conversation started because I was on this sight just like usually lurking around places while my friend was printing out our graphs for our lab notebooks. Another friend peeked over my shoulder and asked me what i was doing. At the moment i was re-reading my old first chapter i posted in SYW a very very long time ago. I explained and she began reading over my shoulder.
I finished and she grabbed my computer off of me and continued.

Now i will admit the old version was very very telly! And she turned to and was like i dont understand there comments. So i explained, that's how it was all born. Gave them examples in my own work, and they all went around read it (i was thrilled) and said they didnt see much wrong with it only grammar and spelling. One offered to beta (I'm going to give it to her when i finished my 90th set of edits after my mom finishes) the other two said they would but they couldnt read it with all the grammar problems.

But it just got me really thinking if they truly do notice. I can see why some people wouldnt know the terms and just like it because its written with more showing or the characters are more towards there age, or stuff like that, but with examples i pulled up they didnt see a problem that most writers would have been like "Stop and fix, this this this and this."
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:17 AM   #20794
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Never read the HP series, so I wouldn't know.

Besides, the reason why HP worked is because Rowling was smart. She started off her books appealing to a younger audience, which meant that they wouldn't really pick up on any inconsistencies. That being said, the more books she wrote in the series, the better at the craft she became.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:23 AM   #20795
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Originally Posted by amlptj View Post
No that was my thought to! But you know i'm starting to think differently.

You see the conversation started because I was on this sight just like usually lurking around places while my friend was printing out our graphs for our lab notebooks. Another friend peeked over my shoulder and asked me what i was doing. At the moment i was re-reading my old first chapter i posted in SYW a very very long time ago. I explained and she began reading over my shoulder.
I finished and she grabbed my computer off of me and continued.

Now i will admit the old version was very very telly! And she turned to and was like i dont understand there comments. So i explained, that's how it was all born. Gave them examples in my own work, and they all went around read it (i was thrilled) and said they didnt see much wrong with it only grammar and spelling. One offered to beta (I'm going to give it to her when i finished my 90th set of edits after my mom finishes) the other two said they would but they couldnt read it with all the grammar problems.

But it just got me really thinking if they truly do notice. I can see why some people wouldnt know the terms and just like it because its written with more showing or the characters are more towards there age, or stuff like that, but with examples i pulled up they didnt see a problem that most writers would have been like "Stop and fix, this this this and this."
I know exactly what you mean. A few years back when I'd just started writing seriously and I was trying to revise Andra, I printed off my prologue and brought it to school. A couple of my friends convinced me to let them read it.

Now this particular prologue was one-page long and nothing but telling. It was the first thing I cut and I'm ashamed that I let anyone read it.

But they loved it. One of them even asked me back before graduation what was going on with that book.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:28 AM   #20796
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I understand and respect that.

Hopefully that is how my series becomes. Not with the grammar or anything (because well they all are full to the brim with mistakes) but the writing itself. The first book is really the hardest for me because well its how all the MC's meet and are thrown in this horribly unbelievable situation. In one book i have to set up all the character introduce all there abilites, set up the entire Monster underground and have the epic twist! The problem with alot of the first book is the huge "OH MY GOD" twist at the end... I would told that maybe i should just not use this twist... but sadly the twist alone is what set up the ENTIRE series... and in the last two books is SUPER important. Without this twist the series doesnt have a real ending and just becomes pointless.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:29 AM   #20797
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I'm so glad I'm not the same writer I was years ago. I think most writers who start off at a young age succumb to telling and run-on sentences. The novel I wrote when I was nine had a lot of "and thens" and "the next thing she knews". Ugh. That novel was SO bad, reading over it now...I can't believe I ever thought it was good.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:35 AM   #20798
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amlptj is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsamlptj is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsamlptj is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsamlptj is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsamlptj is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsamlptj is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsamlptj is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsamlptj is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsamlptj is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Horserider View Post
I know exactly what you mean. A few years back when I'd just started writing seriously and I was trying to revise Andra, I printed off my prologue and brought it to school. A couple of my friends convinced me to let them read it.

Now this particular prologue was one-page long and nothing but telling. It was the first thing I cut and I'm ashamed that I let anyone read it.

But they loved it. One of them even asked me back before graduation what was going on with that book.
See! Yeah it not just my friends yay! My boyfriend every time i tell him i'm editing it more get so upset. He is that person who always tells me its wonderful and awesome, so i thought it was just him being bias but after i ended up crying over the perviously mentioned beta's review he read what she wrote and was like

"THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH TELLING! You take it all out and it wouldnt be good!"

So just to try and i guess prove him wrong over the next week i tried oh did i try to erase all telling. He read it and was like "Yeah this sucks i liked it better before, This is the shit that made me stop reading most books."

Now it could have been a failed attempt at showing verses telling maybe but i really tired hard, and even i didnt really like it as much as my original version.

Maybe it just me and maybe its just because he "gets" my books but I dont know i'm really starting to question alot of rules/guidelines. It made me go back and read alot of my favorite books, to find that alot of them tell more then they show, there characters arn't the right ages and there stories dont follow alot of rules.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:35 AM   #20799
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An artists' job is to make very complicated stuff seem easy, Ally And if a person doesn't have much of an interest in art(be it books or paintings or movies), they just don't notice the flaws. The 6th graders in my school don't seem to notice the difference between the stuff I drew with crayons 5 years ago and the stuff I draw now >_> It's really frustrating.
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Old 12-30-2011, 04:41 AM   #20800
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elysium View Post
I'm so glad I'm not the same writer I was years ago. I think most writers who start off at a young age succumb to telling and run-on sentences. The novel I wrote when I was nine had a lot of "and thens" and "the next thing she knews". Ugh. That novel was SO bad, reading over it now...I can't believe I ever thought it was good.
OMG! Same here. I wrote my first book (the original version) in three notebooks over the course of three years. When i wasnt wondering what the hell the word spelled i was laughing at the writing. There was barely a plot. The words "And Suddenly" were written over a billion times! At least i know how to write now with periods! Really the first handwritten version was just one HUGE sentence and paragraph.

Although i will say i do miss the freedom i used to have as a writer when i was younger. Back then i didnt care how horribly unrealistic it sounded. Anything was possible back then. I kind of miss that freedom now.
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