Old People Writing for Teens, IV

[Smiley0501]

Yay, Sage, for getting that pass done!

I ~wish~ I could beta! Good luck finding those who wanted to beta read for you.

I'm already beta-ing for someone (and doing a shizz job at it because...) I'm swamped with my own revisions.

Right now I am in the ^%$$# mood of revisions. You know the times where you're like "why bother this sucks people have sold books with similar storylines ugh I can't do this ugh why why why do I even try"

[Dorothy]

I wish I could beta for you too, Sage. I love your writing and love the idea of your story. Unfortunately, I'm swamped with writing a sequel plus a round of edits is coming to me in a couple of weeks. Better for me not to think about it too much or else I'll pass out from being overwhelmed, lol.

[Smiley0501]

BTW Dorothy - I *love* your title! So clever and cute.

[JSSchley]

Congratulations, Sage! Sigh...the beta stage.

In good news, I think I'm actually going to work this morning. That counts, right?

[Sage]

Aw, thanks, guys. I totally know it's a busy time of year. I always seem to find the busy time to ask for betas (I almost always am looking during NaNo, probably because that's when I aim to finish edits on my summer WIPs, lol)

[Dorothy]

Originally Posted by Smiley0501

BTW Dorothy - I *love* your title! So clever and cute.

Thanks so much!

[justbishop]

So when do you guys know that you're ready for a beta read? I've thought "this is as polished as I can possibly make it" several times and sent my WIP out to betas, only to have someone's feedback spur a complete rewrite of a chapter, or the addition of a completely new one. Then at that point, I need to do the beta thing all over again to be sure I haven't ruined the flow of the plot, or created character inconsistencies, or made introduced a new character that now needs more "screen" time to seem believable.

Also, I'm so much happier with my first chapter now that I've posted in SYW and rewritten it based on the feedback it got, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to improve my other chapters. It was so helpful to see how multiple critters picked up on the same issues, but I can't very well post every chapter in my WIP and expect that sort of help, and I'm having a hard time applying the concepts of what was said to other portions of my story. Or is that what multiple beta readers are for?

[Sage]

Originally Posted by justbishop

So when do you guys know that you're ready for a beta read? I've thought "this is as polished as I can possibly make it" several times and sent my WIP out to betas, only to have someone's feedback spur a complete rewrite of a chapter, or the addition of a completely new one. Then at that point, I need to do the beta thing all over again to be sure I haven't ruined the flow of the plot, or created character inconsistencies, or made introduced a new character that now needs more "screen" time to seem believable.

Also, I'm so much happier with my first chapter now that I've posted in SYW and rewritten it based on the feedback it got, but I'm at a bit of a loss as to how to improve my other chapters. It was so helpful to see how multiple critters picked up on the same issues, but I can't very well post every chapter in my WIP and expect that sort of help, and I'm having a hard time applying the concepts of what was said to other portions of my story. Or is that what multiple beta readers are for?

"This is as polished as I can make it," is my guideline. Basically I'm ready for betas when I know that I've gotten as far as I can go without a second (and more) set of eyes telling me the faults I can't see (or the faults I think I see but am hoping aren't that big a problem). That's why we get them. Sometimes some really big changes require a new set of eyes when I'm done again, but I've only needed betas after a post-beta revision once, I think.

Multiple betas will pick up on big problems, but most likely will not make the same types of line-by-line crits that you get in SYW. Enough practice will get you to figure out the more line-by-line stuff if that's what you're looking for in SYW and betas will pick up on bigger stuff (and more practice will also help you there).

[justbishop]

You've only needed post-beta betas ONCE? I feel like a doofus now, lol!

I definitely need more practice!

[Smiley0501]

I send it off to betas after a self edit about once.

[justbishop]

Yeah, at this point I doubt I will ever get to the querying stage!

[Smiley0501]

Aww, bishop, you can do it

[JKRowley]

Keep going and you will get there, but don't skip a step. I am always tempted to do that, and then I regret it.

The writing is the best part. It is the most important part.

[justbishop]

Thanks guys

And yeah, I'm so tempted to just start sending the thing off (I'm actually pretty happy w/the first 2 chapters now), but am so scared of the exact situation that Smiley mentioned!

Anywho, what is everyone doing today? It's Memorial day her in the US, of course. We are planning to hit our local zoo for a little bit this morning, and grill some burgers for dinner with the locally raised beef we bought at the farmers' market. Yummy!

[Sage]

I edit it quite a lot before betas see it. I've gotten better at picking out some of the bigger problems and actually dealing with them (instead of hoping it's not a problem, then having betas tell me it's a problem, then sometimes hoping it still not really a problem--haha, yeah, I remember those days). And I do at least one grammar/tightening pass before betas see it.

But I know that there will always be problems that betas will see and I won't. Clearly because I don't have an agent, there are still problems with my novels (market, execution, or querying problems, who knows? Probably depends on the book ). At some point it doesn't make sense to continue tweaking things before betas see it. Endlessly working on a scene before betas when it might be cut or rewritten after betas say it's not working doesn't make sense, for example.

Sometimes I get a pair of eyes for a scene I've changed post-betas. But if betas are happy with most of the book and you've really worked hard to deal with the things they picked up on, there's no reason to continue sending out to betas. They'll always find something. As will your agent and your editor

[Smiley0501]

Well, Bishop, I ended up (just as I was about to quit querying) with an R+R that highlighted everything I'd been told/thinking to revise with some suggestions. So you never know how querying might work out. But I do enforce going through with some beta readers at least once or twice before querying.

Sage, you are a master. I bow down to your awesomeness of knowing when to give your stuff to a beta reader, how much self editing you yourself need to do, etc.

[Sage]

LOL, that of course assumes I'm right

[Smiley0501]

[justbishop]

So how many betas do you guys send to at the same time?

And y'all feel free to call me jb, or just by my real name, Ashley

[Smiley0501]

I usually send to one at a time. So let's say I give my ms to Beta A. Beta A reads it and gives me notes. I go and fix those changes, and then send off to Beta B who reads it and gives me notes. I then incorporate those suggestions into my ms.

And Ashley.

I got to 48,000 words! I am so excited to say I actually think I might be able to get this whole revisions thing done by July!!

[justbishop]

Originally Posted by Smiley0501

I usually send to one at a time. So let's say I give my ms to Beta A. Beta A reads it and gives me notes. I go and fix those changes, and then send off to Beta B who reads it and gives me notes. I then incorporate those suggestions into my ms.

And Ashley.

I got to 48,000 words! I am so excited to say I actually think I might be able to get this whole revisions thing done by July!!

Ah, good to know about the "one at a time" policy. Is this just writer's preference, or a general rule of thumb? I actually have my WIP sent out to 2 people at the moment. Figured that would sort out the major issues, if more than one person mentioned the same thing.

And yay for 48k words! That is awesome!

[JKRowley]

Yay Smiley!

I use a critique group, which is seven people reading my work, piece by piece. One or two will read the entire manuscript when it is polished up and ready to go. I'd send it to as many as are willing to read it. I like opinions (and I am not afraid of criticism).

No big plans for our Memorial Day weekend. My brother invited us to a cookout. He lives 2.5 hours away, which is not that far for a day trip, but I am lazy. Instead I sat around and read all afternoon with my teen. We had a wicked storm, which is fun. Lost power for an hour or so.

[Smiley0501]

JB- for me, it was a personal choice. I can't handle more than one advice at the same time; I get too bombarded. I think it's different for every writer.

Jill- What book are you reading?

And yeah we had a quite Mem Day weekend too; we just went to our beach house and we actually had decent weather so we could hang out *on* the beach. I did some reading, too. (The Stephanie Plum book #1 by Janet Evan0ich).

[Sage]

I usually get 4-8. Right now TM has 3.

[justbishop]

Looks like I'm on the right track as far as betas, then. Thanks guys

And Smiley, the beach sounds amazing!

ETA: Another beta question...do you do revisions and then have the same betas reread? For some reason, I just feel as if that would taint the reading experience, and render them as useless as I am at this point, because I've read the damned thing so many times over.