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Old 02-29-2012, 09:12 PM   #14651
Teriann
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Teriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
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Originally Posted by SteveCordero View Post
Exceptions don't prove the rule, Teri. What successes are you going to point out in modern times? Yes, "modern" times.

What happened in the 1980s or 1990s has no relevance now with the altered publishing paradigm.

Also, it's a matter of access. Agents control the velvet rope. Once you get in, you can leave them behind.
I haven't sold anything (yet), but I'm getting past the gates on my own.

I have no way of proving this without showing you all my email correspondence.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:19 PM   #14652
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Originally Posted by Teriann View Post
I haven't sold anything (yet), but I'm getting past the gates on my own.

I have no way of proving this without showing you all my email correspondence.
I know you are, but you're the exception Teri. What you're doing is the equivelent of sneaking into Clive Davis' mansion and handing him your demo tape.

Your success (which we all hope happens), doesn't create a roadmap for the writing universe. It will be an anomaly.

I deal in what is. Not what we wish the industry to be. Unless you catch lighting in a bottle (The Sh@ck, write 10 books and sell them for .99 cents and ride the paranormal wave, etc), a writer with any hopes of having a financially lucrative writing career will have to go through your (3) to (2) to (1).
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:23 PM   #14653
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Added: I have had editors tell me they will not read my material unless I find an agent, but surprisingly few, and it varies by the editor instead of the publishing house -- with a few exceptions.There are a few imprints which seem impenetrable without an agent, but you know, with reverse Woody Allen logic, I've convinced myself that the few editors who insist on agents are the very editors who see writers as fungible and who want to put me at an immediate disadvantage (yes, that's how I see it.)
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:27 PM   #14654
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCordero View Post
I know you are, but you're the exception Teri. What you're doing is the equivelent of sneaking into Clive Davis' mansion and handing him your demo tape.

Your success (which we all hope happens), doesn't create a roadmap for the writing universe. It will be an anomaly.

I deal in what is. Not what we wish the industry to be. Unless you catch lighting in a bottle (The Sh@ck, write 10 books and sell them for .99 cents and ride the paranormal wave, etc), a writer with any hopes of having a financially lucrative writing career will have to go through your (3) to (2) to (1).
Steve, we were writing at the same time.

You're right -- but here's why. There are no roadmaps and there cannot be.

if I have success, and if I then write up "how to sell a book without an agent" and self publish my book and sell millions of copies, it will not work any more because the nature of the beast means there cannot be a road map.

You cannot have writers following like lemings and thousands of them landing contracts. There must be land mines, booby traps, mirrored walls.

What appears to be a road map (Query, get offer, revise, wait, revise, wait, allow agent to submit, get dumped, rinse and repeat) is in fact filled with more land mines and booby traps and mirrored walls than the route I've chosen.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:34 PM   #14655
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Gotta agree with Steve on this one. When you're an unpublished newbie, you'll take anything -- meaning any agent who shows interest. If you're lucky, you might get to choose between a few before signing to see who is the better fit for you, but if only one agent is interested, you're going to sign with them.

If they give you suggestions on how they think you can make your book better, you're going to do them (unless you are in severe disagreement, I suppose).Of course the agent is the one in control at this point.

Until one has success and experience under one's belt, it's difficult to achieve any kind of autonomy.

I thought the point of the article was more about making sure the self-image you portray online matches your "brand." Like if you write sweet children's books as well as S&M erotica, it might behoove you to keep those two images separate.
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Old 02-29-2012, 09:55 PM   #14656
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Originally Posted by Catwoman View Post
Gotta agree with Steve on this one. When you're an unpublished newbie, you'll take anything -- meaning any agent who shows interest. If you're lucky, you might get to choose between a few before signing to see who is the better fit for you, but if only one agent is interested, you're going to sign with them.

If they give you suggestions on how they think you can make your book better, you're going to do them (unless you are in severe disagreement, I suppose).Of course the agent is the one in control at this point.

Until one has success and experience under one's belt, it's difficult to achieve any kind of autonomy.

I thought the point of the article was more about making sure the self-image you portray online matches your "brand." Like if you write sweet children's books as well as S&M erotica, it might behoove you to keep those two images separate.
What we saw as a point was the changing roles of agents. Even agents are seeing their roles changing.

So much is in flux right now, it's really hard to predict where things will be in a few years -- other than it will be different from what it is now.

I maintain that the direction everyone else is taking is probably a bad direction for that very reason. One person got rich and famous selling ebooks for .99, then thousands of people put up ebooks for .99 and it didn't work any more. People succeeded by doing doing the query, revise, wait, revise wait, let agent submit thing, then thousands of people fell into line, which shifted the power balance to the agents.

It's never good to be one of thousands.

You shouldn't buy stock when it's high.

Last edited by Teriann; 02-29-2012 at 10:49 PM.
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Old 02-29-2012, 10:52 PM   #14657
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Teriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCordero View Post
I know you are, but you're the exception Teri. What you're doing is the equivelent of sneaking into Clive Davis' mansion and handing him your demo tape.

Your success (which we all hope happens), doesn't create a roadmap for the writing universe. It will be an anomaly.

I deal in what is. Not what we wish the industry to be. Unless you catch lighting in a bottle (The Sh@ck, write 10 books and sell them for .99 cents and ride the paranormal wave, etc), a writer with any hopes of having a financially lucrative writing career will have to go through your (3) to (2) to (1).
And the problem with that is?

A new plot is forming: The pizza delivery trick. Someone goes to NYC, and pretends to be a pizza delivery person. Naturally, the pizza is going to the editor in chief of a major publishing house.

While in the office, the faux pizza delivery person strategically places a manuscript on the editor's desk with an urgent handwritten (but unsigned) note saying, "You have to read this!"

(Actually what I'm doing isn't so radical. If you put two sample chapters in an envelope with a good cover letter and mail it to an editor, the editor will look at your pages. She may not like them and she may send you a form reject, and she may even tell you to get an agent -- which is a nice way of telling you to get lost forever -- but she'll take a look, which doesn't take long because she stops reading the moment she doesn't like it.)

Last edited by Teriann; 02-29-2012 at 11:20 PM.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:36 AM   #14658
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kellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentskellion92 is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
I'm going to make Teriann's head explode with this twitter post:

https://twitter.com/#!/AKA_Terrie/st...10774282682368
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:38 AM   #14659
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellion92 View Post
I'm going to make Teriann's head explode with this twitter post:

https://twitter.com/#!/AKA_Terrie/st...10774282682368
LOL. Well, Teri can say she passed the bar so she can argue contract law.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:40 AM   #14660
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You and Teri can read and comment on your contracts. The rest of us best not bother our pretty little heads.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:40 AM   #14661
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Haupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
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Originally Posted by kellion92 View Post
I'm going to make Teriann's head explode with this twitter post:

https://twitter.com/#!/AKA_Terrie/st...10774282682368
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:43 AM   #14662
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This is without a doubt my favorite group of people.

Thanks, Kellion.

It's worth figuring out how to use my twitter account just so I can ask her if she has passed the bar.

And of course, agents don't have to go to law school to understand IP law. They get it.

Just shut up and sign on the dotted line.
Shesh.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:44 AM   #14663
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That tweet about made my own head explode. I don't follow that person, but follow someone who retweets a lot of things that make me crazy. I'd unfollow her, but she's nice and I decided it's best to know the worse.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:46 AM   #14664
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I'm glad I read it. I was feeling sad over a rejection, and then I read the tweet and it made me feel gloriously angry instead.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:48 AM   #14665
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Oy. I couldn't find an exploding smiley, but this will do...
or perhaps,
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:52 AM   #14666
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kellion92 View Post
You and Teri can read and comment on your contracts. The rest of us best not bother our pretty little heads.
LOL. It's such a sleazy tweet by the agent.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:53 AM   #14667
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Very nice. "Gloriously angry" indeed.

Teri, LOL.

(((Ink))) for all that crazy business yesterday.
(((Cricket))) for all your hard work with no rest/massage
(((Amarie))) for that illuminating link
(((Mrs. Brommers))) Termites. Yuck.

Whew. There was so much packed in the pit. I should make a rule to get rid of my rejection hangovers more quickly so I can keep up.
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Old 03-01-2012, 12:57 AM   #14668
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Kellion, you did make my head explode. Seriously.

I guess contract and intellectual property law is so easy that all you have to do to get it is become an agent.

Darn! I wasted all that money on law school. All I had to do was become a literary agent. As I recall, that contracts test was hard. Probably because I'm not an agent, so I didn't just get it.

I want to say more, but I'm sitting here at a loss for words.

Me.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:02 AM   #14669
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It's so easy that all you have to do is be an editor or agent to understand it. But it's also so hard that a writer couldn't possibly get it and certainly shouldn't ask for clarification, i.e. argue.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:09 AM   #14670
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Originally Posted by kellion92 View Post
It's so easy that all you have to do is be an editor or agent to understand it. But it's also so hard that a writer couldn't possibly get it and certainly shouldn't ask for clarification, i.e. argue.
Of course a writer can't understand something as hard to read as a contract.

Silly girl.

Sign right here and everything will be fine. *inserts evil laugh*

How did their heads get so big, that's what I want to know. Didn't they read Much Ado About Nothing? In the words of the great bard:

"Let every eye negotiate for itself and trust no agent."

My new favorite Shakespearan quotation. Actually I've been quoting that line for years.

ETA: You can see I've recovered my powers of speech.

To answer my own question about how their heads get too big, it would be appropriate to quote my former contracts professor about judges, "Anyone whose ass is kissed too often will start to think it's holy."

Last edited by Teriann; 03-01-2012 at 01:14 AM.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:14 AM   #14671
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It's so easy that all you have to do is be an editor or agent to understand it. But it's also so hard that a writer couldn't possibly get it and certainly shouldn't ask for clarification, i.e. argue.
It's actually a metaphysical transformation that takes place once you become an agent or editor. You, miraculously, know contract law.

Now, the big question for me is the agents who are also writers. Once they start writing, do they automatically forget about contract law?

And when they go into agent mode, do they say, "Wow, I remember contract law again!"
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:19 AM   #14672
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Haupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsHaupe is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by kellion92 View Post
It's so easy that all you have to do is be an editor or agent to understand it. But it's also so hard that a writer couldn't possibly get it and certainly shouldn't ask for clarification, i.e. argue.
I think this is one of those paradoxes we're supposed to embrace to acquire a true lit-rary palate, which explains why I have such poor taste...
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:35 AM   #14673
Teriann
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Teriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
I deleted my post because I was repeating, which is what I do with an exploded head.

There's something amusing about tweeting, "I know what I'm doing."

Imagine Obama tweeting, "Citizens, listen up. Don't argue with my decisions. I get it." You'd have about 5 billion exploded heads.

Last edited by Teriann; 03-01-2012 at 02:08 AM.
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:55 AM   #14674
RedScylla
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RedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsRedScylla is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
I'm contemplating random tweet: I'm just a writer. I'm no good at math or contracts. *teehee*
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Old 03-01-2012, 01:58 AM   #14675
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Teriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate complimentsTeriann is so great that we've run out of appropriate compliments
Quote:
Originally Posted by RedScylla View Post
I'm contemplating random tweet: I'm just a writer. I'm no good at math or contracts. *teehee*
People will not know you're being ironic.
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