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Old 08-14-2008, 08:20 PM   #1
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Mind our own human rights...

This is appalling. The thing is, this could have happened to me!

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/13/ny...7e36f1&ei=5124

Quote:
In federal court affidavits, Mr. Ng’s lawyers contend that when he complained of severe pain that did not respond to analgesics, and grew too weak to walk or even stand to call his family from a detention pay phone, officials accused him of faking his condition. They denied him a wheelchair and refused pleas for an independent medical evaluation.

Instead, the affidavits say, guards at the Donald W. Wyatt Detention Facility in Central Falls, R.I., dragged him from his bed on July 30, carried him in shackles to a car, bruising his arms and legs, and drove him two hours to a federal lockup in Hartford, where an immigration officer pressured him to withdraw all pending appeals of his case and accept deportation.
He was not some terrorist, just a computer engineer living his life in New York City. He was trying to get a green card -- just trying to stay out of trouble and become part of America. What gives?

From my experience, I do know the INS likes to have their power trip. It's not a hearsay -- I've seen them in action. This makes me ashamed of our government. It appalls me. How can we demand human rights and condemn other countries like China when we treat people like this within our own borders?

Quote:
In 2001, a notice ordering him to appear in immigration court was mistakenly sent to a nonexistent address, records show.
And these things happen all the time, but it's never "the INS's fault" -- it's always the applicants'. My parents petition was totally lost for a year and it wasn't until we inquired about the status that they admitted that the whole file was lost, and that we had to start all over again. But it was never "their fault."

It's incredible. It seems like since the INS becomes part of Homeland Security, it's getting worse and worse. They're making it difficult for legal immigrants and people who try to abide by the laws, and yet they are incompetent in dealing with illegals and would-be terrorists. The INS truly is a disgrace to this country and I can go on and on and on about this.

This makes me so mad that I'm thinking of starting a petition. Something has to be done about the way the INS and Homeland Security run things. We can't close our eyes to human rights abuse and violations here anymore -- to do so would make us all hypocrites. How can we call ourselves the best country in the free world when we do something like this?
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Old 08-14-2008, 09:07 PM   #2
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You can tell the same story over and over again, simply replacing the three initials INS with DEA, FBI, CIA, FDA, FAA, OSHA, or any other FedGov alphabet soup agency. You can tell the same story over and over again, replacing the three initials with local zoning boards, local cops, or state regulatory commissions. The song remains the same, just the words change; yet we keep handing more and more power to the same organizations that screw people over every day of the week.

Good luck with that petition.

The Supreme Court (Minnesota Bd. For Community Colleges v Knight, 465 U.S. 271 1984) has explained that "Nothing in the First Amendment or in this Court's case law interpreting it suggests that the rights to…petition require government policymakers to listen or respond to individuals' communications on public issues."

We have a government on steroids with nothing in place to make it accountable to the people it's supposed to 'serve' except biannual beauty contests that are decided by machines produced by corporations that regularly give big bucks to our 'public servants' so that their will will supercede the will of the people.

All the organizations created by that government to manage our lives in turn have no accountability. The 545 responsible for legislation NEVER address the issue when legislation is drafted. We create one opportunity after another for tyrants to do as they damn well please, then we're surprised when tyranny raises its ugly head.

We obviously need a government commission to investigate all these human rights violations and save us from big government.
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Old 08-14-2008, 09:25 PM   #3
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It's so sad and wrong what was done to this man and his family.

About that petition? Actually, I'd be too scared to sign it.
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Old 08-14-2008, 09:31 PM   #4
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Well, at least I hope they really go for a criminal investigation and perhaps indictment. Something needs to change here.
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Old 08-14-2008, 09:48 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don View Post
You can tell the same story over and over again, simply replacing the three initials INS with DEA, FBI, CIA, FDA, FAA, OSHA, or any other FedGov alphabet soup agency
I know it's tempting to turn that story into a general philosophical anti government screed, but that's not much help.

INS really is different -- unaccountable, incompetent, and arrogant. I've had dealings with them myself.

Putting them under Homeland Security just made it worse -- every action of theirs can now be hidden or excused under the broad umbrella of "protecting us from terrorists."

And people don't care anyway. The anti immigrant feeling in this country is strong and organized -- just witness the 180 degree turn McCain did on immigration policy once he read the polls, or the desperate scramble backward Hillary did on drivers licences for illegals.

But none of this exists in a vacuum. The tone is set, and policy enforced, right from the top. Petitions won't matter. Elections will. Which is one of the many, many reasons I think this coming election is so important.

Questions like "Is Obama ready to lead?" or "Is McCain in bed with lobbyists" are peripheral issues at best. The real question is "What kind of country do we want to live in? What type of government do we want, what mindset do we want our leaders to have?"
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:10 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
I know it's tempting to turn that story into a general philosophical anti government screed, but that's not much help.
But continue on through the rest of your post. As you point out, The real question is "What kind of country do we want to live in? What type of government do we want, what mindset do we want our leaders to have?" The pervasive trampling of rights by myriad agencies shows that this is not the kind of country we want to live in, not the type of government we want, not the mindset we want our leaders to have.
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INS really is different -- unaccountable, incompetent, and arrogant. I've had dealings with them myself.
No different than the DEA or ATF, to cite two prime examples. Incidents in Chicago, Atlanta, and most recently Prince Georges county show these practices aren't limited to FedGov alphabet agencies, either.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
Putting them under Homeland Security just made it worse -- every action of theirs can now be hidden or excused under the broad umbrella of "protecting us from terrorists."
And it also gives the boots on the street and their bosses an extra layer of insulation. Now the people who direct the boots on the street can point upstream to some other bureaucrat in the DHS and say 'I was just following orders.'
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And people don't care anyway. The anti immigrant feeling in this country is strong and organized -- just witness the 180 degree turn McCain did on immigration policy once he read the polls, or the desperate scramble backward Hillary did on drivers licences for illegals.
Yes, the anti-immigrant feeling gives the INS a feeling that 'god is on their side,' but the same can be said for the drug war propaganda, or the musings from the Brady Bunch that 'hunters don't need real guns to chase bunny rabbits.' I think the anti-immigrant feeling has more to do with awarding unearned benefits than with immigrants. Take away all government benefits from illegal aliens and the beefing would be a fraction of what it is today. The politicians know this, yet do nothing. Is it possible that they see an advantage to having us up in arms over illegal aliens?
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But none of this exists in a vacuum. The tone is set, and policy enforced, right from the top. Petitions won't matter. Elections will. Which is one of the many, many reasons I think this coming election is so important.
I must have missed it when Obama said he'd fix the INS, or end the War on Drugs or the War on Terror or repeal the Patriot Act or propose legislation to hold bureaucrats accountable for their actions or restore the Second Amendment.
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Questions like "Is Obama ready to lead?" or "Is McCain in bed with lobbyists" are peripheral issues at best. The real question is "What kind of country do we want to live in? What type of government do we want, what mindset do we want our leaders to have?"
I couldn't agree more. The issue has deep philosophical roots, and won't be resolved by holding one guy responsible for his actions as an INS agent. The 545 are responsible for everything their minions do, and until we start replacing them wholesale, nothing's going to change.
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The State represents violence in a concentrated and organized form. ~Mahatma Gandhi
The executive of the modern state is nothing but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie.~Karl Marx

I tend to blame the Feds for Don, actually.
If they'd get it right, we wouldn't need Don pointing out that they'd gotten it wrong.
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:39 PM   #7
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These kinds of things make me really tempted to try my hand at politics. I suck at the games they play with each other, I'm probably a little too hotheaded and I don't parse my words. Maybe when I don't have such little kids I'll consider it. I think that's part of the problem though, the people who wouldn't play games, who would do a good job (not necessarily me) aren't even putting their hats in the rings because they see what politics is all about and it makes them sick.

Which is a shame because I think we're robbed of some very good leaders because of the politics.
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Old 08-14-2008, 10:58 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by Don View Post

No different than the DEA or ATF, to cite two prime examples.
I've had dealings with both. Any agency or department can have screwups, but I've found ATF guys to be competent and impressive, DEA less so. A lot less so.

Quote:
I think the anti-immigrant feeling has more to do with awarding unearned benefits than with immigrants. Take away all government benefits from illegal aliens and the beefing would be a fraction of what it is today.
Yes but it's not that simple -- things seldom are. If we refuse to provide public education to illegal kids, for example, it solves the problem of schools overwhelmed and underfunded by numbers. But it would eventually create an entire class of illiterate and unemployable immigrants on the streets -- with all the crime and attendant problems that would end up costing the country even more, regardless of the moral questions.
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I must have missed it when Obama said he'd fix the INS, or end the War on Drugs or the War on Terror or repeal the Patriot Act or propose legislation to hold bureaucrats accountable for their actions or restore the Second Amendment.
Of course not. Nobody's going to fix everything. But I'm talking about a mindset that sees military solutions as the best option for every international problem, and also sees the answer to such societal problems as drug abuse or illegal immigration as one best handled through law enforcement. More laws, more enforcement, and esp harsher punishment is their answer to almost everything. And that's the mindset that encourages abuse of power.
Quote:
The 545 are responsible for everything their minions do, and until we start replacing them wholesale, nothing's going to change.
I doubt anything would change. And here's the problem with democracy -- not everyone agrees about the answers. If the 545 were replaced en masse with those philosophically in tune with your views, I would see that as a disaster of unbelievable proportions. And I would guess if they were replaced with those echoing mine, you might feel the same way.
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:26 PM   #9
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I've had dealings with both. Any agency or department can have screwups, but I've found ATF guys to be competent and impressive, DEA less so. A lot less so.
I've heard liberals say that the ATF is competent and the DEA is not. I've heard conservatives express just the opposite. Ghosts from recent events in Atlanta and Chicago speak to me with the same voice as ghosts from Ruby Ridge and Waco. I'm not giving you a shoe to wear, just pointing out that ideology tends to make interesting bedfellows. To top off the whole argument, I find nothing in the Constitution allowing for either organization.
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Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
Of course not. Nobody's going to fix everything. But I'm talking about a mindset that sees military solutions as the best option for every international problem, and also sees the answer to such societal problems as drug abuse or illegal immigration as one best handled through law enforcement. More laws, more enforcement, and esp harsher punishment is their answer to almost everything. And that's the mindset that encourages abuse of power.
And it's a mindset so deeply rooted in the bureaucracy and the 545 that replacing one man won't make any substantial difference. The trend has been the same right along, from the Roosevelt dynasty to Kennedy to Carter to Clinton, from Lincoln to Nixon to the Bush dynasty.
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Originally Posted by rugcat View Post
And here's the problem with democracy -- not everyone agrees about the answers. If the 545 were replaced en masse with those philosophically in tune with your views, I would see that as a disaster of unbelievable proportions. And I would guess if they were replaced with those echoing mine, you might feel the same way.
Which is why the Founding Fathers were wise enough to create a Republic, not a Democracy, with a well-defined Bill of Rights that was designed to restrain FedGov's powers.

If the 545 were restricted to dealing with the issues specified in Article 1, Section 8 of the Constitution, neither you nor I would have a reason to feel that any election represented 'a disaster of unbelievable proportions.'

If the Bill of Rights was enforced as the highest law of the land, as it should be, the issues that have Red states fighting Blue states wouldn't even be Federal issues in the first place. Instead the ninth and tenth amendments are used as toilet paper and there's no nook or cranny of our lives that FedGov doesn't feel perfectly entitled to screw up.
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Economics puts parameters on people’s utopias. ~Peter Boettke
The 'social contract' is to the politician what 'original sin' is to the priest. ~Don
The vision of the helpful and protective state is the most pervasive and counter-productive ideology in the world today. ~Don
The State represents violence in a concentrated and organized form. ~Mahatma Gandhi
The executive of the modern state is nothing but a committee for managing the common affairs of the whole bourgeoisie.~Karl Marx

I tend to blame the Feds for Don, actually.
If they'd get it right, we wouldn't need Don pointing out that they'd gotten it wrong.
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Old 08-14-2008, 11:34 PM   #10
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There was a recent case here in Boston. An immigrant from the Ivory Coast who had been a teacher and public in protests in the Ivory Coast about the government came to Boston. He had an INS hearing but showed up on the wrong day because the date of his hearing was handwritten and he thought it said one day but it was for another.

He was told since he was a no show he was going to be deported back to the Ivory Coast despite knowing he would be in danger there.

Since coming here he has worked as a teacher in a Boston Public School. His students walked out of school in protest and went to where he was being detained. He was released pending another hearing. The Mayor of Boston appealed on his behalf. His students and the Boston Public School System appealed on his behalf. It dragged for several years during which he married an American.

He was told to report for a hearing and just like the man in the article he too was detained but unlike the man in the article he was immediately deported.

Nothing like INS getting rid of a decent hardworking role model.
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Old 08-15-2008, 12:27 AM   #11
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Quote:
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I've heard liberals say that the ATF is competent and the DEA is not. I've heard conservatives express just the opposite. Ghosts from recent events in Atlanta and Chicago speak to me with the same voice as ghosts from Ruby Ridge and Waco. I'm not giving you a shoe to wear, just pointing out that ideology tends to make interesting bedfellows.
Actually, ideology has nothing to do with it. I'm speaking from my own personal experience in law enforcement. I’ve worked briefly with both, and knew several agents from each personally. I’m not saying I can generalize based on my limited experience, by that view was shared by many if not most of my fellow cops, few of whom were liberals.

I also worked on a task force for a year that included an FBI agent, so I have some idea of how that agency operates, as well as its strengths and weaknesses.
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