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Old 05-20-2008, 05:52 AM   #126
Lyra Jean
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Originally Posted by Shadow_Ferret View Post
Wait. A Russian tortoise?

Isn't that an oxymoron?
OH I get it now. It took me a few minutes though.

Another reason I have fish is that there is no deposit required. whoopee!
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:01 AM   #127
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Wait. A Russian tortoise?

Isn't that an oxymoron?
Oh, GROAN.

I gotta get a picture up so you guys can see him. His name is Bruce, by the way. He's soooo adorable. And contrary to what they told me at the store, he really likes his water dish/tub.
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:10 AM   #128
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Bruce!

Okay, I uploaded a few pics to photobucket. Here's hubby holding Bruce:

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Old 05-20-2008, 06:11 AM   #129
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Bruce checkin' me out. He's very curious. I was trying to take a video of him yesterday by holding my arms over the edge of his tank, but he would come right up to the camera to see what was going on. Ultimately I had to keep it on the other side of the glass!
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:25 AM   #130
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Ohhhhh, Jo, he's precious!!

But your substrate is all wrong, and the house should be bigger of course, and I don't see any fresh leafy greens anywhere, and a mere child could tell you not to hold a tortoise that way, and you must NEVER let them look at you, it's dangerous for their eyes, and besides you should avoid making eye contact because tortoises take it as a challenge and they WILL kill you dead, and make sure you NEVER scratch their bitty heads or rub their shells, because they abhor being scratched and/or rubbed in any way, and photography in general stresses them out, they could die, for real, you'll have to go out and buy this stuff to de-stressificate them, it's kind of expensive but DO YOU LOVE YOUR TORTOISE OR NOT????

*snerk*
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:32 AM   #131
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He acts just like a baby, too. He has to try eating everything once before he realizes it's not food. Also, if I turn the light out, he will automatically go to sleep. He thinks dark=sleep. I can actually hold him on my lap at night and put a blanket over his head and he will go to sleep. If I pull the blanket off, he'll blink and be like "Huh? What's goin' on?" Put blanket back... instantly back to sleep. I did it like three times in a row once and it still works.

(Which I'm sure is classified as tortoise abuse... I should be jailed.)
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:37 AM   #132
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And the key just THROWN AWAY!!!

LOL, I think he's the cutest tortoise EVAR, and you're clearly doing everything right, despite the "experts." Good luck with him, and give him a shell-massage for me, willya??
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Old 05-20-2008, 07:43 AM   #133
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Well, he's a lot smaller than I kept picturing (and Jo knows why it gave me the giggles) - and I have to ask, do you have a fenced-in yard, with the fence being at least 6' high? What's the square footage of the house five miles down the road from you, and do they have carpeting or hardwood floors. Do you and/or your husband sneeze more than the average person? Do you ever stand on your head? Do you have enough closet space for said tortoise? What if the tortoise wants to go away to college? Will you let him?

Answer carefully or else we'll come bust down your door and haul said turtle away.

Just kidding - or am I?
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Old 05-20-2008, 09:02 AM   #134
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Your tortoise is so adorable. What a cutie.
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Old 05-20-2008, 04:18 PM   #135
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Ohhhhh, Jo, he's precious!!

But your substrate is all wrong, and the house should be bigger of course, and I don't see any fresh leafy greens anywhere, and a mere child could tell you not to hold a tortoise that way, and you must NEVER let them look at you, it's dangerous for their eyes, and besides you should avoid making eye contact because tortoises take it as a challenge and they WILL kill you dead, and make sure you NEVER scratch their bitty heads or rub their shells, because they abhor being scratched and/or rubbed in any way, and photography in general stresses them out, they could die, for real, you'll have to go out and buy this stuff to de-stressificate them, it's kind of expensive but DO YOU LOVE YOUR TORTOISE OR NOT????

*snerk*

[snorts]

Can you please come clean my monitor now? Coffee BURNS on the way out, thank you very much.
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Old 05-20-2008, 06:47 PM   #136
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When I lived in New York I had a roommate who had a turtle/tortoise, I know there is a difference, I can't remember. Anyway, she would let him roam free, which was fine when she was there, but it irked me that she didn't put him in his tank when she left. I had to keep my bedroom door shut, or I would find poop in there. One time the poor thing ate her homework, really. He chewed up the corner of one of her notebooks. The next day he pooped it out and made the most sad excuciating sound I'd ever heard. It must have hurt. I hated her for letting him roam around unattended with that as a consequence. She also fancied her self an artist and painted with oil. She left a painting ON THE FLOOR to dry. Well mr. turtle crawled over the wet paint and left a little blue trail all around the apartment, including walking over her laptop keyboard which she left on the floor. I just closed my door and left the paint for her to clean up. Poor fella.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:30 AM   #137
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When I lived in New York I had a roommate who had a turtle/tortoise, I know there is a difference, I can't remember. Anyway, she would let him roam free, which was fine when she was there, but it irked me that she didn't put him in his tank when she left. I had to keep my bedroom door shut, or I would find poop in there. One time the poor thing ate her homework, really. He chewed up the corner of one of her notebooks. The next day he pooped it out and made the most sad excuciating sound I'd ever heard. It must have hurt. I hated her for letting him roam around unattended with that as a consequence. She also fancied her self an artist and painted with oil. She left a painting ON THE FLOOR to dry. Well mr. turtle crawled over the wet paint and left a little blue trail all around the apartment, including walking over her laptop keyboard which she left on the floor. I just closed my door and left the paint for her to clean up. Poor fella.
Now, THAT'S animal abuse. Poor thing. That's why letting an animal do as it pleases all of the time is not always the best idea, for the owner or for the animal. I hope he didn't suffer, but it's not likely.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:59 AM   #138
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Awww, what a sweet baby.
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Old 05-21-2008, 06:44 PM   #139
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Joe, your tortoise is so cute!

I just wanted to add that a friend who lives on the beach called me yesterday to tell me about her cat. The cat stays mostly outside and the other night her husband hears something around midnight and goes outside to check on things. The poor cat was crying by the sliding door to get inside, which I guess he never does. The husband looks down off the deck and there's a bobcat standing there looking up at him, then it runs off. They were convinced the poor cat was almost dinner for the bobcat and was screaming to get back inside.

My other neighbor had a Macaw that was over 20 yrs. old and was being kept in this big cage outside off their back porch. Two days ago they found the cage ripped to shreds and nothing left of the bird but some feathers. They aren't sure if it was the bobcat or a racoon. Needless to say they are sad because they owned this bird since it was small. I can just imagine the poor things fear. Clipped wings and no way to escape.

I know animals have animal urges but if you live where I do expect your outside pets to get eaten by something.
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Old 05-22-2008, 12:22 PM   #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sassandgroove View Post
When I lived in New York I had a roommate who had a turtle/tortoise, I know there is a difference, I can't remember. Anyway, she would let him roam free, which was fine when she was there, but it irked me that she didn't put him in his tank when she left. I had to keep my bedroom door shut, or I would find poop in there. One time the poor thing ate her homework, really. He chewed up the corner of one of her notebooks. The next day he pooped it out and made the most sad excuciating sound I'd ever heard. It must have hurt. I hated her for letting him roam around unattended with that as a consequence. She also fancied her self an artist and painted with oil. She left a painting ON THE FLOOR to dry. Well mr. turtle crawled over the wet paint and left a little blue trail all around the apartment, including walking over her laptop keyboard which she left on the floor. I just closed my door and left the paint for her to clean up. Poor fella.
I have a buddy who is a reptile fanatic and always has some sort of reptile or snake in his home. He had a bearded dragon that ran around the place like a cat, climbing on the furniture and you if you sat down. He also had a pretty big boa constrictor that roamed his apartment and that wasn't so cute in my opinion. Eventually the thing vanished and was still missing when my friend moved out.

Bruce looks like a decent fellow, though.
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Old 05-23-2008, 07:55 AM   #141
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I know some cats are okay with it, but my cat would wither and die if he were locked indoors. It just drives me crazy that they can require all of this crap for animals - ANIMALS! I'm sorry, I love them, but they're NOT PEOPLE. Do we require walk-throughs for people to have kids? No. Because it's nobody's business.
And you wonder why it is that animal welfare groups have to make such restrictive rules?

Your attitude alone is enough to tell me that I'd rather not let *any* animal live with you. Since you so casually disregard them as being mere 'objects'.

No, they are not "people" and thank whatever deity listens that is true. Otherwise we would have a world that is much, much, much worse.

You say that you think cats cooped up indoors is a form of 'child abuse'. Yeah, because letting them wander around outside without regulation is SOOOOO much better. Cars, coyotes, at loose dogs, cat fights, unspayed cats giving birth in alleys...yes, this is MUCH more humane.

As for 'walk throughs' for adopting dogs. You think that's bad? Consider my own first shelter rescue when I bought my house a year ago (and full disclosure, I didn't have to go through all the normal hoops to adopt because of a very strong reference from a local animal control officer and the nature of my job which means I'll have a lot more interaction with animal control and other law enforcement than most people).

My first dog? Was 'owned' by a family that abused him, greatly. Then decided that wasn't fun anymore. Got turned over to another family that decided to allow him to be brutally attacked by their other dogs - given back to the first family and removed. Adopted out by someone else and then had to be FORCIBLY removed from that home for severe neglect. To the point where the shelter decided he wouldn't be adoptable. If it wasn't for the caring of one shelter woman and her threat to quit if he wasn't given a chance, then he would have been put down then and there.

Had the shelter had a 'walk through' policy in place, my dog would NEVER have been given back to the first family OR put into the third family's custody. Because a 'walk through' isn't just about making sure you follow all their 'guidelines' but making sure you're not some ass getting an animal to torture.

Oh, and my dog? It took him two months before he was able to fully accept the new puppy into the family (not growling or with aggression, the opposite really) and here it is a year later, with me, and I *still* can't raise my voice in my house without having to clean up the piddle - even if it's not directed at him.

Why?

Because the abuse he suffered his first three years was *that* bad.

But hey, none of that matters cause he's not a *person*.

And I'm greatly suprised no one else mentioned the idiocy of the statement about not requiring a 'walk through' for people to 'have kids'. Their own, maybe not. but to adopt or foster, you'd better believe it!

So, you got a problem with your local animal welfare groups wanting to make sure the animals they place are actually going to be well cared for? Fine, go off and find one of them grocery store flyers that say "free to good home" - which, do you really think these people care what kind of home they're getting rid of the unwanted litter in? Hell no, they just want to remove their own irresponsibility.

But that's okay, becuase, hey, they're not *people*.

Rabe...
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Old 05-23-2008, 08:19 AM   #142
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Wait a second - there's a huge difference between a walk through and you can't adopt a dog because your yard isn't fenced. Or the fence isn't high enough. Or your yard is under a half an acre and only the group only adopts out to people who have at least an acre.

And I am not kidding about the fence thing - one rescue group specifies that the yard must be fenced and the fence must be at least 6' high. You can't honestly tell me that the height of the fence is all the difference in whether or not a dog ends up in a good home. If I walk the dog, and play with the dog and socialize it and take it to the vet and treat it almost as good as my kids, does it make a damned freakin' difference if my yard is fenced or not?

So, yes, I have a problem with their arbitrary definition of a good home. I thought it was with people who love and care for the animal, not whose fence is high enough.

ETA: Both of my dogs were shelter dogs. My cats all came from "free to good home" people who made damn sure their "unwanted litters" found good homes. One lived to be 18, the other 16. The third cat was a stray I took in. My last cat was also a free to a good home cat, whose owner's daughter was allergic. I worked with the woman and, trust me, she cared where Casey went. Casey was 18 whe she died.
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Old 05-24-2008, 07:25 AM   #143
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And you wonder why it is that animal welfare groups have to make such restrictive rules?

Your attitude alone is enough to tell me that I'd rather not let *any* animal live with you. Since you so casually disregard them as being mere 'objects'.

No, they are not "people" and thank whatever deity listens that is true. Otherwise we would have a world that is much, much, much worse.

You say that you think cats cooped up indoors is a form of 'child abuse'. Yeah, because letting them wander around outside without regulation is SOOOOO much better. Cars, coyotes, at loose dogs, cat fights, unspayed cats giving birth in alleys...yes, this is MUCH more humane.

As for 'walk throughs' for adopting dogs. You think that's bad? Consider my own first shelter rescue when I bought my house a year ago (and full disclosure, I didn't have to go through all the normal hoops to adopt because of a very strong reference from a local animal control officer and the nature of my job which means I'll have a lot more interaction with animal control and other law enforcement than most people).

My first dog? Was 'owned' by a family that abused him, greatly. Then decided that wasn't fun anymore. Got turned over to another family that decided to allow him to be brutally attacked by their other dogs - given back to the first family and removed. Adopted out by someone else and then had to be FORCIBLY removed from that home for severe neglect. To the point where the shelter decided he wouldn't be adoptable. If it wasn't for the caring of one shelter woman and her threat to quit if he wasn't given a chance, then he would have been put down then and there.

Had the shelter had a 'walk through' policy in place, my dog would NEVER have been given back to the first family OR put into the third family's custody. Because a 'walk through' isn't just about making sure you follow all their 'guidelines' but making sure you're not some ass getting an animal to torture.

Oh, and my dog? It took him two months before he was able to fully accept the new puppy into the family (not growling or with aggression, the opposite really) and here it is a year later, with me, and I *still* can't raise my voice in my house without having to clean up the piddle - even if it's not directed at him.

Why?

Because the abuse he suffered his first three years was *that* bad.

But hey, none of that matters cause he's not a *person*.

And I'm greatly suprised no one else mentioned the idiocy of the statement about not requiring a 'walk through' for people to 'have kids'. Their own, maybe not. but to adopt or foster, you'd better believe it!

So, you got a problem with your local animal welfare groups wanting to make sure the animals they place are actually going to be well cared for? Fine, go off and find one of them grocery store flyers that say "free to good home" - which, do you really think these people care what kind of home they're getting rid of the unwanted litter in? Hell no, they just want to remove their own irresponsibility.

But that's okay, becuase, hey, they're not *people*.

Rabe...
I gotta say, I agree with your sentiment here, Rabe, I just think you could have been a smidge less harsh in your presentation. You have totally valid points to make, and they'd go down a lot easier with a spoonful of sugar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jersey Chick View Post
Wait a second - there's a huge difference between a walk through and you can't adopt a dog because your yard isn't fenced. Or the fence isn't high enough. Or your yard is under a half an acre and only the group only adopts out to people who have at least an acre.

And I am not kidding about the fence thing - one rescue group specifies that the yard must be fenced and the fence must be at least 6' high. You can't honestly tell me that the height of the fence is all the difference in whether or not a dog ends up in a good home. If I walk the dog, and play with the dog and socialize it and take it to the vet and treat it almost as good as my kids, does it make a damned freakin' difference if my yard is fenced or not?

So, yes, I have a problem with their arbitrary definition of a good home. I thought it was with people who love and care for the animal, not whose fence is high enough.

ETA: Both of my dogs were shelter dogs. My cats all came from "free to good home" people who made damn sure their "unwanted litters" found good homes. One lived to be 18, the other 16. The third cat was a stray I took in. My last cat was also a free to a good home cat, whose owner's daughter was allergic. I worked with the woman and, trust me, she cared where Casey went. Casey was 18 whe she died.
And what Jersey says is also true. The rules are sometimes so ridiculously petty that it can make people who will surely care for the animal perfectly well not want to take it, or not even qualify to take it, therefore causing that animal to not get a home at all. That's what the crux of the argument here was. It doesn't have to be black & white, all or nothing. Someone with less that an acre of 6' fenced property can be a damn fine animal owner. I defy anyone to tell me I'm not, even though I "only" have a quarter acre, and four-foot fences. Give me a break. My dog is the healthiest, happiest, best-loved dog ever, so why do my fences make a difference?
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Old 05-24-2008, 05:01 PM   #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rabe View Post
And you wonder why it is that animal welfare groups have to make such restrictive rules?

Your attitude alone is enough to tell me that I'd rather not let *any* animal live with you. Since you so casually disregard them as being mere 'objects'.

No, they are not "people" and thank whatever deity listens that is true. Otherwise we would have a world that is much, much, much worse.

You say that you think cats cooped up indoors is a form of 'child abuse'. Yeah, because letting them wander around outside without regulation is SOOOOO much better. Cars, coyotes, at loose dogs, cat fights, unspayed cats giving birth in alleys...yes, this is MUCH more humane.

As for 'walk throughs' for adopting dogs. You think that's bad? Consider my own first shelter rescue when I bought my house a year ago (and full disclosure, I didn't have to go through all the normal hoops to adopt because of a very strong reference from a local animal control officer and the nature of my job which means I'll have a lot more interaction with animal control and other law enforcement than most people).

My first dog? Was 'owned' by a family that abused him, greatly. Then decided that wasn't fun anymore. Got turned over to another family that decided to allow him to be brutally attacked by their other dogs - given back to the first family and removed. Adopted out by someone else and then had to be FORCIBLY removed from that home for severe neglect. To the point where the shelter decided he wouldn't be adoptable. If it wasn't for the caring of one shelter woman and her threat to quit if he wasn't given a chance, then he would have been put down then and there.

Had the shelter had a 'walk through' policy in place, my dog would NEVER have been given back to the first family OR put into the third family's custody. Because a 'walk through' isn't just about making sure you follow all their 'guidelines' but making sure you're not some ass getting an animal to torture.

Oh, and my dog? It took him two months before he was able to fully accept the new puppy into the family (not growling or with aggression, the opposite really) and here it is a year later, with me, and I *still* can't raise my voice in my house without having to clean up the piddle - even if it's not directed at him.

Why?

Because the abuse he suffered his first three years was *that* bad.

But hey, none of that matters cause he's not a *person*.

And I'm greatly suprised no one else mentioned the idiocy of the statement about not requiring a 'walk through' for people to 'have kids'. Their own, maybe not. but to adopt or foster, you'd better believe it!

So, you got a problem with your local animal welfare groups wanting to make sure the animals they place are actually going to be well cared for? Fine, go off and find one of them grocery store flyers that say "free to good home" - which, do you really think these people care what kind of home they're getting rid of the unwanted litter in? Hell no, they just want to remove their own irresponsibility.

But that's okay, becuase, hey, they're not *people*.

Rabe...

Whoa. Slow down, Bessie.

A dog and a turtle are two different things. Not that they are any less deserving of a good home than the other, but because turtles do need specialized care.

I htink you're ignoring the fact that the OP and her husband spent time researching the care of their animal friend and then found that what the pet store demanded was very wrong according to the research (exhaustive it sounds) that the OP and her husband had conducted.

A pet store is completely different than a rescue. In most cases, if you buy an animal from the pet store you are rescuing them from neglect right then and there. Yes, many stores provide adequate care, but just that. Others...well...I'm sure all of us have our horror stories.

I think it's pretty funny how where you live and how you have been raised reflects your ideas of what is and is not cruelty to an animal, concerning keeping them indoors or not.

Me, I grew up on a farm. We had a colony of feral cats in our barn which kept down the populations of copper head snakes, rats, and other nasties. I took the time to socialize as many as possible, but we did not spay or neuter them. That was back in the days before we all knew better.

A few were tamed enough to bring indoors from kittenhood. Not one ever wanted to stay inside all day. But, this was the country, none were declawed, all were great hunters, and we had no feral dog problem. Only one dog in 5 miles, actually.

Since moving to the city, I have rescued a cat who is declawed, spayed, and has always been inside. A few years ago she decided she wanted to explore the back borch. It was enclosed, so I was ok with it. We moved to our new house and our yard is fenced in, so she likes to go out and watch the birds. I allow it because I believe that keeping an animal inside 24/7/365 is cruel. You would not enjoy being kept inside, would you? Not if there were a safe area for you to explore and get fresh air?

The thing is, all pet owners can be responsible and care for their furry friends. Our beliefs on whether or not the animal should go outside is a moot point. No one has the right to tell another person that their belief is wrong, because of the difference in how we were all raised. (Unless that belief is whipping them to death or some other horrible act) Inside or outside, that animal has a home where they are fed and safe from stupid people who would hurt them.

And by the way, I rescued a beagle last summer, had the lady in my home for a walkthrough, had her back for hot dogs, visit her home, and the adoption fee was waived because of our caring home and our special needs daughter. I can go pick up a dog any time from that shelter and any in my area because of our rapprot with them all now. So, I'm not some abusive freak talking out muh butt.
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Old 05-25-2008, 02:03 AM   #145
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Rabe,

I think that maybe you should have read the whole thread before posting.

The issue wasn't "animals aren't people so who cares how I treat them", the issue was "if I have a loving home where I fully intend to do right by this animal, why would a pet shop/shelter rather keep/kill them than let me have them?"

The thread was titled in such a way as to lead you to believe it was the former, but the actual discussion was on the latter.
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