15K in, and thinking of starting over

Jamesaritchie said:

I do think your P.S. is a pretty lousy idea, though.

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It was just a practice idea.

lizo27 said:

So I'm trying a bit of rewriting as I go. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. There isn't one true path of writing that everyone must follow. If finishing everything no matter what works for you, fantastic. But I'm trying something different.

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Do what you need to do to make the story as strong as it can be, even if that means scratching 15k. Like I said, I've done it. And if I had just kept going just to "finish" the novel, it would have been a mistake. I would have had a mess because I didn't listen to my instincts.

Better to do it now than 90k later.

lizo27 said:

So I'm trying a bit of rewriting as I go. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. There isn't one true path of writing that everyone must follow. If finishing everything no matter what works for you, fantastic. But I'm trying something different.

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As someone who told you to do what feels right for the story, I have to disagree with the above.

Rewriting is a trap. A very easy one to fall into. Many an activity includes the precaution that the first time is always the hardest. That's both assurance, and the trap.

Once you've done this, it gets easier to do it again. And then again.

That doesn't mean you should never rewrite. It means that the process has flaws. You can avoid those pitfalls, but the pitfalls exist nonetheless.

dondomat said:

Well, I disagree with the sentiment of practice-writing. I'm of the "learn to finish everything" school.

Have a gin and tonic, figure out how to wrap up the story quickly, add another 10K to do that, and then move on, after the story has become a finished novella.
If you like the concept of "practice writing", then think of this as of "practice story structuring".

Finish everything, always, is my writing motto. Better have a pile of finished stories you're not totally happy with, than a pile of unfinished stories and nothing to actually show for the effort.

Because that's the difference, IMO, between a real writer and a wannabe writer: the real writer will show the things he has actually finished and published, while the wannabe writer will just keep talking about this new idea that will totally work this time, and this new character-motivation technique he read in that blog.

P.S. One step further--after practice structuring the story and actually finishing it--practice publish it under a practice pen-name with some tiny legit epub or pen-name self-pub it, and get some practice editing experience and practice reviews.

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While I agree that it's important to finish your WIPs, I disagree with the notion that what one should do when stuck at 15K is to turn the would-be novel into a novella. I don't really see the point in that. Novellas are tough to sell, so if the goal of writing it is to get an agent, I think you're better off sticking with a novel-length project.

I have two unfinished WIPs which I abandoned and would probably never go back to. I also have three finished MSs. Not finishing a WIP does not mean you will never finish one, ever.

As for the part about "practice pubbing"...hrmm, yea...I disagree with that too. I can't tell if that was given in jest or what, but if the goal is to get an agent, you're better off spending your time honing your writing skills and perfecting your query.

To the OP, you've received a lot of good advice here. If you want to rewrite, go for it, just be wary that you're not falling into the perfectionist trap of doing that over and over.

As a few others have said, 15k is not much to lose. It sucks, no question, but you can do 15k words in a week (first draft obviously).

lizo27 said:

I've generally followed the NaNo school of thought and just pounded out that first draft and edited later. And I've found it doesn't work well for me.

So I'm trying a bit of rewriting as I go. I don't think there's anything wrong with that.

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Yep. That's me. If I had a 'finish everything I start' rule, I'd never finish anything. I'd throw my hands up and say, "This sucks! Writing sucks!"

I'm the same way with my sculpting. I have a lot of unfinished sculptures sitting around in my studio. But you know what? I have way more finished ones, sitting in collector's homes around the world. And it's because I give myself permission to move on, if I just can't finish something.

While losing 15k words might seem difficult, it's really just a drop in the bucket. I've easily hit 1 million words, and when I think of 15k "lost," it's kind of like a shrug and an "oh well" at this point.

If 15k is the price for a sense of mastery over your story, then I'd say it's a pretty small amount to pay here.

Sneering; Agents; Novellas; rpactice pen-names

Sneering

lizo27 said:

Okay, maybe you didn't intend for it to come across this way, but this sounds very sarcastic and condescending. I don't think anyone is telling me not to finish. Certainly I intend to finish the novel. I have finished (not published) novels before. I've generally followed the NaNo school of thought and just pounded out that first draft and edited later. And I've found it doesn't work well for me.

So I'm trying a bit of rewriting as I go. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. There isn't one true path of writing that everyone must follow. If finishing everything no matter what works for you, fantastic. But I'm trying something different.

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There's a growing number of moderators who have cautioned me that a growing number of posters find my tone sarcastic and condescending and also entitled and arrogant and dismissive and insulting and that if a critical wave of complaints swells I'll get the ole ban. This is one reason I don't post a lot of stuff about myself--what if a petition to give me the boot succeeds and then I can't unlink some links from old posts when I want to?

For the record: I strike poses in front of the mirror to feel cool, I don't attack people on the Internet to feel cool; I would add five smileys after every sentence to indicate that I say things with a friendly titter, but I dislike the overuse of smileys.

Good luck with the rewriting, and always welcome to PM me to bounce drafts off or assistance with query letters.

Agents
Today, in 2014, one can a) write until stuff gets good enough to attract a good agent; b) write until stuff gets good enough to navigate the slush pile of the clout-wielding folks open to unagented subs, of the advance paying folks open to unagented subs, and of the royalty-only paying folks open to unagented subs; c) self-publish. The mere act of getting published by Tor or Daw or Pyr also helps one get an agent, don't think it doesn't; they don't throw their arms up in defeat "she did this without us, now there's no use in working with her". Impressive sales from smaller royalty-payers also helps get an agent. Impressive sales as a self-publisher also helps get an agent. This is not 1980. Options are increasing with every year for the quality writer.

Novellas
Also, this is not 2008--there is a pile of novella-markets I can name off the top of my head: Darkfuse; KHP books; Bedlam; Momentum; Hydra; Harlequin Digital-first; 40K books; Bloodbound; and all smaller epub houses. All of them. Sure, a novella with an epub arm of a big publisher or with the torso of a small publisher is not likely to make one an overnight star.

Practice pen-names
That's no reason to not practice-structure stuff under practice pen-names; unless one really, really wants to enter the market for the first time with the very best thing that will rake in 'first book' awards and establish a golden reputation--in that case--go get 'em. "We live in a world of having one shot at stuff" vs "We live in a world of constant self-reinvention"--a question of temperament. Stephen King's first published book (Carrie) made him a star. Dan Brown's sixth book (The Da Vinci Code) made him a star. Dean Koontz's fiftieth published book (Strangers) made him a star. James Patterson's first published book (The Thomas Berryman Number) made people sit up and take notice. Jack Higgins's thirtieth book (The Eagle Has Landed) made people sit up and take notice. Patrick Rothfuss exploded on the scene with his very first novel. Robert Jordan wrote eight Conan and four western novels before feeling ready to tackle his epic saga. Lots of paths and options out there if one is in the game for real.

Here are some smileys:

I wish novellas were more in favor. I love me a good novella.

I started my first, permanently shelved, novel and finished it.
I started my second, currently submitted after a brutal but productive round of R&Rs novel and finished it.
I started my third novel and, within two weeks, knew something was off.

Last night, as I realized how the pieces would now fall together, every hair on my body was standing up. I was shaking slightly, and sweat soaked through my shirt. That was around 11:00 PM. I finally fell asleep around 3:30 AM. I cancelled a racquetball game I had scheduled after work tonight. I used being tired as the excuse, but it's because I need to get back to that story. I will probably be in this frame of mind for several months.

So, no, just making yourself keep what you've written and keep writing more of it is not always the best answer for everyone.

lizo27 said:

By the by, recent research suggests that people react to smileys in the same way they do to real facial expressions--so perhaps not five smileys, but one might suffice.

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OT, but I totally agree with this. A little smiley goes a long way. Or if one is too writerly to add a smiley, at least they could add, 'I grin' to their posts, like they would with their characters in a manuscript. Less hard feelings, this way. Yeah?

Back on topic. MookyMcD, I love that feeling!

Shelf it.

Listen to your gut. That's one of the hardest things to learn about writing, but you have to trust your instincts.

My own sob story:
The book I'm in the process of shopping seemed pretty straight forward (it's a kid's book! I thought, This should be easy!), but I started it three separate times (one go around getting up to 20K before being tossed) before finally finishing a rough draft. A few characters, sections, and scenes were pulled through each attempt, and there's even one scene that has mostly survived to the finished product.

Even the draft I finished had over 80 percent of it either rewritten or axed in subsequent drafts. It was frustrating at times, but the end product is better as a result. What I ended up with wouldn't have been possible without all of those failed attempts.

Other people might disagree. My own take is that, as a writer, one of the hardest things to do is being honest enough with yourself to admit something isn't working and starting again. In some cases, starting over will even save you time in the long run.

You have no idea how much I sympathize with you. Good luck!

lizo27 said:

I've written the first 15K of the first draft of my novel. I've been pantsing it, more or less, by which I mean that I had a general idea of the plot and some basic character sketches in mind before I started. Now that I've started writing, I've gotten a better idea of both plot and characterization, and I want to rewrite my beginning to reflect that. What I want to do is sit down, make an outline and some notes on character, setting, and magic system, then start over from the beginning. 15K is a lot to lose, but I'd end up rewriting it later anyway.

Thoughts?

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I don't know if I'm the best to advise you on this because I haven't finished a book in awhile but I do what you're talking about here constantly. I've written the first 10k many times before scrapping and starting again. Don't know if it's good or not. Usually I do this when I don't outline.

For my WIP I'm outlining vigorously and I hope this helps me avoid scrapping the story.

For me, the beginning is always the hardest part to write. Had I not written, and promptly trashed, many of my previous would be novels at their inception. Then, I might have actually published something by now. So start over if you feel it's the right thing to do. Just beware of the perpetual urge to rewrite everything again.

So there are a lot of opinions flying around this thread, but I thought i'd add my anyway.

I just finished my second manuscript (ever did anything with the first one. It was a practice run) and i've had to rewrite the beginnings of both. I do NOT see this as a bad thing.

That being said, its was really hard for me. It was hard to go back and put myself in the mindset of someone trying to get to know my character. It was hard to get the tone and feel, because she changed a lot. I dunno, for me, it was a huge challenge to rewrite the opening of a novel I was happy with.

It wasn't that my opening was bad, it just wasn't great. I didn't want to send it out as a partial and have the agent shrug and toss it aside. If it was any other part of the book, I might have let it sat and waited for more feedback.

So its really up to you. I do NOT recommend loosing momentum on your book, but if you feel that way now, you are going to have to rewrite it (at least in my experience). Which do you think would be harder for you?

Are you confident that you can finish the project? If not KEEP GOING. Finishing a book is a different skill than writing it (IMO). If you are sure its going to get done, then I would restart it.

I'm glad I just finished my first. Really I am. For my second, I wish I started over. For the next one, I'm going to make sure the beginning is how I want it.

Just my thoughts.

I don't think 15k is much to lose if you know what you want to change. I'm a pantser, and find I cant work with an outline. I do have one book at 35k that I have stopped. Every once in a while I go back and think I'll finish it and get stuck and put it away again. That's just one story though. My current WIP was queried before. I got some great feedback from an agent which I took to heart. In the process of revising I gutted the last 30k words and essentially re wrote it. It's a much better story for the process. It wasn't wasted. That first revision developed the world in my mind and helped me in my revision.

Writing's a process.