Delusions of Gender -- Must read for everybody, but especially genderqueers

kuwisdelu said:

That's a pretty lame reason.

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Not at all, I was taught how to do the simple crap- change oil, filters, tires, etc. Men were expected to know how to take care of such a large valuable purchase. It was part of "gender roles" when i was younger. I am sure even before, but this was the 80s and 90s. Remember, woman have been (unfortunately) shouldered with being the weaker sex at the time, so it was just taken into account that they wouldn't get dirty and change oil, or whatever. I hated boy things growing up, but it was just something most guys were taught. My father made sure my brother and i has at least a basic grasp of certain auto related maintenance.

Different eras have different "effects" on the sexes, and what's expected of them.

And it's not that guys HAD/HAVE to be into cars, it's one of those "stereotypes/expectations" that hasn't completely vanished yet.

And these days, for some reason, you're expected to be into sports...

Meh.

kuwisdelu said:

You know, now that I'm thinking about it, this may actually explain why I've always been somewhat uncomfortable with the label "bisexual" for myself. I'm not often attracted to guys, but when I am, it's usually in the context of thinking of myself as a girl. I suppose you could say that I'm actually straight, but with bigender tendencies. Does that make any sense at all?

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sounds BI to me... just a submissive role when engaged with the same gender.

Melanie Dawn said:

sounds BI to me... just a submissive role when engaged with the same gender.

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Not really. Doesn't that assume that female role = submissive?

kuwisdelu said:

And these days, for some reason, you're expected to be into sports...

Meh.

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I don't think that's true either. I know a lot of men that hate sports, or are just uninterested. I think people are slowly letting go of those ideals because they are stupid, and baseless to most people.

kuwisdelu said:

Not really. Doesn't that assume that female role = submissive?

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no, typical, but not all the time. a "catcher" as it were.

Melanie Dawn said:

Not at all, I was taught how to do the simple crap- change oil, filters, tires, etc. Men were expected to know how to take care of such a large valuable purchase. It was part of "gender roles" when i was younger. I am sure even before, but this was the 80s and 90s. Remember, woman have been (unfortunately) shouldered with being the weaker sex at the time, so it was just taken into account that they wouldn't get dirty and change oil, or whatever. I hated boy things growing up, but it was just something most guys were taught. My father made sure my brother and i has at least a basic grasp of certain auto related maintenance.

Different eras have different "effects" on the sexes, and what's expected of them.

And it's not that guys HAD/HAVE to be into cars, it's one of those "stereotypes/expectations" that hasn't completely vanished yet.

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Exactly... and I grew up in the 60s & 70s.

I was the first guy in my school to take typing and home ec. Not because I was confused, but because I wanted to be with the girls.

My teachers were very confused as there were things in both classes that were geared toward women's issues at home and at work, and I was sent to the library to study during those classes.

thothguard51 said:

Exactly... and I grew up in the 60s & 70s.

I was the first guy in my school to take typing and home ec. Not because I was confused, but because I wanted to be with the girls.

My teachers were very confused as there were things in both classes that were geared toward women's issues at home and at work, and I was sent to the library to study during those classes.

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I was 70s and 80s but i don't think those eras were all that different. I took home ec as a junior (i think)..only guy in my class lol i was always more comfortable around women... as of late i got my degree in interior design (not decorating), and I was one of two guys, but the other guy dropped pretty fast. Then just as i was beginning transition i took an IT program..all guys..i hated it!

Melanie Dawn said:

no, typical, but not all the time. a "catcher" as it were.

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This seems like an odd choice of places to promote the female = sexually submissive stereotype.

kuwisdelu said:

This seems like an odd choice of places to promote the female = sexually submissive stereotype.

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not what i was saying at all... don't get hung up on my initial wording. every gay couple (men or women) i have ever known, there's always one who is more masculine and one more feminine. Sure there has been exceptions, but it's typical. The feminine one is "usually" submissive, but not always... you're thinking too black and white.

take for instance my marriage... i am very submissive, and my wife is very much the aggressor... sort of a reversal of roles.

I grew up in the 1970s-1980s. As soon as I got my driver's license, my father taught me how to check oil and change tires. I was also the first girl in my junior high school--first EVER--to take wood shop instead of home ec. I had no interest in learning to cook or sew; I wanted to build things, dammit.

I think I'm cis-female. Biologically female, anyway. But I distinctly remember being 4 or 5 years old praying that I would wake up the next morning as a boy. Not just once, but many times over that time span, until I figured out it wasn't going to happen. In my case it was partly because of things that had been done to me; I was under the impression that those things wouldn't have happened if I'd been male instead of female. Being a boy would have been "safe". But I've also always identified much more strongly with the men in my life than the women, and have personality traits that I've been informed are "male." And I still sometimes wish I could be a man instead of a woman. So while I'm *toward* the female end of the spectrum, I don't consider myself *at* that end.

I also have days when I'd prefer to be completely a-gender, if that's a word.

Kuwisdelu, what you're talking about with the shifting preferences based on how you think of yourself is actually reasonably common for bi-gender people. And even for some transsexual people, too. And for a while when I thought I was bi-gender, I couldn't figure out how to describe my orientation either. Yours definitely sounds like "straightish and bi-gender" to me.

Early in transition, I realized that thinking of myself as female instead of male made me _slightly_ curious about the idea of sex with a man, and made me much more comfortable with the idea of sex with a woman, so I think in my case, my self-perception affected my feelings on sex. Transition also sorta changed the sort of traits I find attractive, and some other stuff. But my brief experimental fantasies about guys never had me in a submissive role, so I don't think there's any reason to speculate that yours are about submission either.
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I'm not a big fan of the assumed butch/femme dichotomy in lesbian relationships, and most lesbians I know are kinda uncomfortable with it too. Butch/femme is _totally awesome_ for people who fit into it, but I'd say that of the majority of the lesbian couples I know personally, including the one I'm half of, it's not really a thing. I know that in some regions, it's a big cultural thing, but I don't think it's an inherent trait or anything. Really, it's too hard to prove that "masculine" or "feminine" objectively exist, much less that having one of each is inherent to most relationships.

While I was in Norway, a well-meaning but clueless cousin of my girlfriend declared that all relationships had a masculine and feminine energy and asked which of us was which. *sighs* It was kinda awkward, and she wasn't even talking about sex. I don't think either of us can be solidly categorized as either. We like to experiment with gender roles a little at times, but just for fun and in a light-hearted way, and mostly regarding how we present in public. It's not a big deal to us, definitely.
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KimJo said:

I also have days when I'd prefer to be completely a-gender, if that's a word.

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It totally is. I know two or three people online who identify as such more or less regularly, and others who sometimes feel like that.

Mara said:

Kuwisdelu, what you're talking about with the shifting preferences based on how you think of yourself is actually reasonably common for bi-gender people. And even for some transsexual people, too. And for a while when I thought I was bi-gender, I couldn't figure out how to describe my orientation either. Yours definitely sounds like "straightish and bi-gender" to me.

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Thanks. It makes a lot more sense to me that way now.

...although I wouldn't mind being a lesbian either.

Early in transition, I realized that thinking of myself as female instead of male made me _slightly_ curious about the idea of sex with a man, and made me much more comfortable with the idea of sex with a woman, so I think in my case, my self-perception affected my feelings on sex. Transition also sorta changed the sort of traits I find attractive, and some other stuff.

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I can identify with that. But I'm pretty comfortable being a male if that's what's expected of me. I definitely preferred my body when it was more androgynous, though.

But my brief experimental fantasies about guys never had me in a submissive role, so I don't think there's any reason to speculate that yours are about submission either.

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I like both top and bottom, personally...

I'm not a big fan of the assumed butch/femme dichotomy in lesbian relationships, and most lesbians I know are kinda uncomfortable with it too. Butch/femme is _totally awesome_ for people who fit into it, but I'd say that of the majority of the lesbian couples I know personally, including the one I'm half of, it's not really a thing. I know that in some regions, it's a big cultural thing, but I don't think it's an inherent trait or anything. Really, it's too hard to prove that "masculine" or "feminine" objectively exist, much less that having one of each is inherent to most relationships.

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I'm with you on that. I've noticed most of the women I'm attracted to usually have some stereotypically "masculine" traits and the men I'm attracted to usually have some stereotypically "feminine" traits.

While I was in Norway, a well-meaning but clueless cousin of my girlfriend declared that all relationships had a masculine and feminine energy and asked which of us was which. *sighs* It was kinda awkward, and she wasn't even talking about sex. I don't think either of us can be solidly categorized as either. We like to experiment with gender roles a little at times, but just for fun and in a light-hearted way, and mostly regarding how we present in public. It's not a big deal to us, definitely.

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...yeah, I don't much like gender roles.

This may not be completely appropriate for this thread but there's a new group on Facebook I'm thinking of leaving . . . becuase it is about Lesbians but seems very stereotypical. Some members have commented on it, too. But there are lots of posts about leaving comments about things, and some are about studs and fems, and I think I was the only one who said we didn't like those labels, and that people assume my wife is butch just because she has short hair and I have long hair. Another question was how you would react if your partner said they wanted to carry a child from one of your relatives so they would have your DNA. (This is what my wife and I did.) All the other comments were that this would creep them out so I posted about my experience. But if there is only negativity about it I'm leaving that group.

Stereotypes even among those who should be open-minded and accepting disappoints me. But sometimes, even in the LGBT community, there are conformists, who think to fit in they have to fit a certain mold. :-(

Kim Fierce is Kim Fierce. kuwi is kuwi. Mara is Mara, KimJo is KimJo, and so on. Any other definition won't fit nearly as well.

I want to be known as a person, not as the demographics, labels, roles or stereotypes I supposedly belong to.

Satsya said:

kuwi is kuwi.

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Well. Sometimes.

kuwisdelu said:

Well. Sometimes.

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Bah. Are you being contrary for the sake of contrariness?

Satsya said:

Mara is Mara

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Or so you think. So you think...*secures her Mara mask while eerie music plays*

someone explain to me what bi-gender is..new terms pop up every day..i can't keep up.

KimJo said:

I also have days when I'd prefer to be completely a-gender, if that's a word.

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I feel that way all the time. I wish it were possible to be viewed and interacted with as totally genderless. It's not, though, since most people have a disturbingly pathological need to shove those around them into neat little boxes, no matter how poor a fit the boxes really are. The only reason I've ever been able to think of for this is laziness. It takes a lot more effort to judge each person as an individual than to shove broad groups of people into categories and interact with them that way.

Melanie Dawn said:

someone explain to me what bi-gender is..new terms pop up every day..i can't keep up.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bigender

That's probably a better explanation than I can give. Though many bi-gender people really feel a third androgynous option too.

CharacterInWhite said:

Nor is Fine suggesting otherwise.

What she is suggesting is that the effect of gender socialization is the driving force behind the perceived sex differences, and she supports this with a good 200 page essay explaining how and why.

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Except she ignores evidence that contradicts her assertions; for instance, that no studies about gender and MRI have screened for neurological disorders.

She ignores the fact that one of the studies she cites used exclusively deaf people who were fluent in sign.

Different forms of sign are as different as different spoken languages; in order to look at gender issues you'd need to differentiate the fMRIs for various kinds of sign—at which point you have a useless sample.

That's pretty shitty research. It's the research of someone with an agenda; it's one reason you won't see her cited in peer reviewed journals.

I think that there are far too many variables for anyone to take just about any of the current research seriously.

Melanie Dawn said:

someone explain to me what bi-gender is..new terms pop up every day..i can't keep up.

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That one in First Nations has roughly 2500 years of object history behind it.

So, is this just the nature vs. nurture debate falling on the nurture side?

Thanks, Mara and Chasing. It's good to know I'm not the only one who feels that way.

Roger, on the nature vs. nurture thing, speaking ONLY FOR MYSELF (and I want to emphasize that, because I know these topics can be sensitive for some), I don't know if my spot on the gender spectrum is where I would have been regardless of my experiences, or if it's because of the things that were done to me as a child, or if it's a bit of both. I know that my desire to be a boy when I was very young came from my desire to be "safe" from things like what had already been done to me, but sometimes I genuinely *feel* more male than female, or don't feel either gender at all. (Sometimes I don't feel especially human, either, but that's another issue entirely.)