Having A Manuscript Edited

Kristen King · Jul 31, 2006

Nomad said:
Thanks, Kristen--I mostly just wanted to get the freelance rates up on this thread so people know what to expect and what they get when they pay up.

You so sneaky... ;]

Nomad said:
So, people: if you want your manuscript edited, proofed, etc., Kristen has posted a range of 'standard' rates (standard meaning that she is a professional freelancer, knows professional freelancers, and has provided us with rates based on this expertise) that some editors charge.

And if you want to calculate hourly rates, multiply those numbers by 8-10 for proofreading, 6-8 for copyediting, 5 for substantive editing (which usually includes some rewriting), and 4 for developmental editing. Not everyone edits that number of pages per hour, but it's average-ish. Some folks are much faster (and will charge a higher per-page rate accordingly) and some are much slower. It just depends on the editor.

Nomad said:
If you're paying thousands of dollars to someone to edit your manuscript, time to rethink the manuscript.

And hit up the critique group for some feedback.

Nomad said:
If you're paying someone to do a proofread because you have a great story, good writing, but aren't terrific with the spelling, good idea.

I second that!

Thanks, Nomad. Good back-and-forth on this.

Kristen

Gillhoughly · Jul 31, 2006

Thank you Kristin & Nomad!! I'm glad that's all sorted out!

The price list is enlightening. I can send another newbie who doesn't understand protocol (asking a writer to check your stuff is a no-no at certain events) to you, or quote them 800.00 per book. Chances are they will vanish off my radar so I can get back to the serious ritual of swilling booze in the bar and kvetching with the other writers about our biz.

Yes, my angle is pretty much doing it as a favor to friends or to put in some lip on a piece of writing when it's going into an anthology with my name on the cover. On two projects I gave up my editor's fee so there would be more money in the advance to share out to the writers.

I've been to many a site where the people behind it published one POD or e-book, have decided they're now great big important pros, and opened their own editing service. One in particular had so many typos and grammar goofs on his website that I couldn't finish reading it to get the rates, I was laughing too hard. All his "success" stories were writers who went to vanity houses.

Pro editing is like any other job in that you learn the business, make an investment in time, effort, and money, then open a proper shop. You sell a good service for a fair price and treat people well so they come back and recommend you to their friends.

The ones to be wary of are those running the equivalent of an editing "garage sale."

They range between clueless newbie to experienced scam artist, and the absolutely legit and honest people can get lost in the crowd.

I did the Bootstrap Thing because I didn't know enough to tell the difference and couldn't afford to pay for any sort of editing at all. It's colored my perception, so I tend to tell neos to learn to edit on their own.

A few years back I apparently did a favor for a local writer's group. One of their members went with a POD publisher (no advance, pays in royalties, paid for editing as part of the package) and had been playing the queen bee with them all since she was now "published." She was always the first to "help" out a newbie to the group because of her now vast professional experience. Yes, she did offer an editing service for a price--but only because she was a published pro. (She had a tote full of copies of her book to sell as proof of her accomplishment.)

Well, I didn't know any of that when another member asked if that sort of published work counted as a professional credit/sale.

I'm not known for restraint or diplomacy, so my laughter and derisive comments hit home like a lead bean ball on the noggin. Until someone explained things later I couldn't figure out why the nicely dressed lady on the end of the row looked like she'd swallowed a moldy lemon. Her gracious reign was over, poor thing.

On the other hand, everyone there got the skinny on how real publishing/editing works and I got a nice lunch. Not a bad deal. :tongue

nevada · Jul 31, 2006

Gillhoughy, I know exactly the kind of writer you are talking about. I used to read on another website as well, and the person who eventually took over running it counts herself as a published author and the many people who go to the website worship her. Except it was a POD, they printed her book without any editing, and believe me it needed it badly, and I think she sold ten copies. But hey, she's published and they werent and that was good enough. I dont go there anymore. Sorry to hijack the thread, but people like that make me laugh.

Gillhoughly · Jul 31, 2006

Nevada--you made me smile. (Quite a feat since my car's in the shop and will require a significant sack of gelt to get back.)

That type is all too common in the business. I've had to learn to keep my gob shut at writing events else I hurt their little feelings. Generally I get with other (print-published-by-gohd-we-got paid-a-real-advance-for-this) writers in the bar and have a good larf. Swilling a chocolate martini (or three) goes a long way toward improving one's mood over the non-pros who think they're on our side of the fence.

I had one e-writer who picked a fight with me via e-mail. She'd only heard of my remarks third hand from an attendee and decided I was the new antichrist and tried to start a private little flame war. I put her on the ol' "block senders" list quick enough.

A couple years later she did a 180 and hailed me as her new best friend at a conference, claiming we'd put some hottentots on the run on some POD & e-books-are-the-new-black BB. (Yeah, riiiight.)

She also kept interrupting Hugo-winner Elizabeth Moon during a panel talk, which was very rude. (I ask ya--you pay good cash to get into a conference and who do you want to listen to--an award winning writer who makes a living at the craft or an e-book writer who all but pays to get published and picks fights with anyone who disagrees with her?)

So she tried to latch onto me.

I felt like the little cat trying to get away from Pepe le Pew. Yikes.

I shall speek of ze wri-ting!

Haaalp!

adpickle · Aug 18, 2006

Would it be best to find an editor that specializes in fantasy for a fantasy ms? My weakness is in punctuation, run on sentences and paragraphs. I was thinking though, that it may behoove me to find someone that can relate to the content.

Without reading my manuscript, an editor I was recommended to quoted me $2,500. I am now sitting on my thumbs with tears in my eyes. Thanks to Kristen, I now know I fit into the $4 per page realm. I still need to know where to turn.

Anybody have any suggestions?

Kristen King · Aug 18, 2006

Amber, my feeling is that if you can find a qualified editor you're comfortable with in your genre, that would be great. However, good editing is good editing, and I think you'd be better off with a great editor who doesn't have a lot of fantasy experience than an okay editor who has a strong fantasy background. If you can find someone who's both a great editor and a fantasy expert, that would be awesome.

Kristen

civilian chic · Sep 5, 2006

Hi everyone,
I was reading through the responses to CaoPaux and ByGrace's concerns about editing and I would like to respond. I am a freelance editor, and while there are (pr)editors out there who take advantage of writers, just as there are people out there who would take advantage of anyone, it seems a bit cynical to lump all freelancers into this category. (In fact, I've been doing this professionally for seven years and I did not know that people were so skeptical of the role of editors! Wow.)

If you're considering getting your mss edited (and I agree with Kristen, we all need it, whether we pay for it or not), good editors will provide references, free sample edits, written estimates, etc.... as safety nets for the author, and so that the author knows exactly what they will get, and what they will spend. ($2500 is too much, unless your book is really, really long!) The free sample edit, especially, would weed out most of the cons.

As for those authors who choose the self-publishing route, has anyone checked out prices for editing by in-house editors at vanity presses?? Good lord. Kristen's prices are a bargain compared to that. POD's need it, too. Beyond that, I reserve judgement.

I myself charge the same rate per hour for any kind of edit, be it a copy edit, substantive, or anything in between. Some things take longer than others. I do a free sample edit of 3-5 pages so that the author can decide if I am the editor they want, what exactly they want me to do ... and, based on the sample of their work, I can give them an accurate time/monetary estimate. This has worked well for me, and it seems to simplify the process.

Kristen King · Sep 5, 2006

I'm with you, cc:

civilian chic said:
I do a free sample edit of 3-5 pages so that the author can decide if I am the editor they want, what exactly they want me to do ... and, based on the sample of their work, I can give them an accurate time/monetary estimate. This has worked well for me, and it seems to simplify the process.

My hourly rate is pretty much the same for everything, but my per-page rate varies because, as you said, some things take longer than others. My per-page rates are actually higher than what I posted, but in my experience those rates are a good starting point and are, as I said, the low end of things for the majority of the editors I know.

I don't think $2500 is always too much. I've edited manuscripts that were less, but I've also edited some that were more. The last one I finished was exactly $2500. It depends on the manuscript, the timeline, and the level of edit you're going for. It's up to each individual to decide on a workable budget for his or her specific circumstances.

When it comes down do it, my rates are how much it costs to work with me. I charge what I believe I and my finished product are worth. If someone thinks that's too much, he or she can go work with someone else who charges less.

kk

Anthony Ravenscroft · Sep 5, 2006

CC: you get used to it. I've got pro creds going back before 1985, but I tend to be gun-shy around "clients" who don't check out my portfolio or contact previous clients... & they do litter the landscape! (My commercial clients know that, if I mess up, I'm doomed, so it's an equable relationship.)

The fallout is that those of us who move cautiously, who know what we're doing, who stand by our work, are the ones standing there when the fertilizer impacts the ventilation-distribution system.

Yes, there are many thousand of people who'll charge "only" $2/page (double-spaced, naturally) to run the tex through Grammar & Spell checks (& maybe sexism, cliche, & style, too!) in Word.

And ten times their number of "writers" who think they're getting a great deal, which demonstrates that they don't know what they're doing.

It's an uphill battle.

Kristen King · Sep 5, 2006

Anthony Ravenscroft said:
Yes, there are many thousand of people who'll charge "only" $2/page (double-spaced, naturally) to run the [text] through Grammar & Spell checks (& maybe sexism, cliche, & style, too!) in Word.

And ten times their number of "writers" who think they're getting a great deal, which demonstrates that they don't know what they're doing.

There are people out there (and here at the Cooler) who will tell you that the only person who benefits from "professional editing" is the "professional editor." This is not true. When you hire a true professional editor, rather than an illiterate scam artist or a dumbass who thinks editing=SpellCheck, you will benefit.

If you're looking at hiring an editor as a way to educate yourself and become a better writer, it's a good thing.

If you thoroughly research your prospects and find someone qualified to work on your manuscript, with great references and a sample edit you adore, it's a good thing.

If you agree on a price that both you and your editor are comfortable with, it's a good thing.

If you go into editing thinking that you're going to hand an editor 500 pages of crap and get back a Pulitzer winner and it'll cost $500 or less, you're a moron.

Editing is not the easy out. It's an investment in your manuscript and yourself as a writer. You will get out of it what you put into it. If you expect it to be an easy solution, it's not going to help you. It may help the manuscript, but long term, there's no real gain. Give a man a fish and all that.

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Lauri B · Sep 5, 2006

I can't speak for everyone here (obviously), but one of the reasons I hesitate to endorse professional editors is that I can put up with some typos and awkward grammar in a submitted manuscript without ditching it out of hand. I'll even overlook some organizational errors and aspects of a work that I know need to be revised/cut/fleshed out, etc. if the work has enough potential. But that goes with the territory--I have never accepted a manuscript that didn't need revisions of some sort, and not just "oh, you spliced a comma" stuff. So in some cases I think the money spent is unnecessary. In other cases I think it makes a manuscript better than it should be, given the writer--What I think is a problem is when someone hires an editor to fix their work for them before they submit it to me, and then when it comes time to do revisions, they can't. I hope that makes sense--I'm really tired tonight.

So in sum: I have nothing against professional editors, except that sometimes they actually make my job harder, believe it or not.

Anthony Ravenscroft · Sep 6, 2006

Hiring an editor

Kristen's correct in that a writer who hires a good freelance editor should view this as a learning opportunity. My experience is that it doesn't work out that way, but that's me. Here, an editor puts the manuscript into good condition so that it has the best chance of getting noticed. I always have the nagging thought that a writer ought to be able to do this, but stuff happens, & another set of eyes might pick up a glaring problem before an acquisitions editor decides it's the last straw & rejects the manuscript.

Once it's accepted, the house editor might change everything around again, as Nomad says. Every publisher has its "house style."

Kristen King · Sep 6, 2006

I always track my changes when editing and tell the author that he or she should accept or reject each change manually (and provide instructions for the less computer literate). I also tell them that if they don't understand why I added, deleted, or changed something to let me know and I'll explain it, and do the same things for queries. Some clients take advantage of that, and it shows in the next project. Some don't, and that shows, too. It really depends on what the client puts into it.

kk

civilian chic · Sep 6, 2006

Kristen King said:
I always track my changes when editing and tell the author that he or she should accept or reject each change manually (and provide instructions for the less computer literate). I also tell them that if they don't understand why I added, deleted, or changed something to let me know and I'll explain it, and do the same things for queries.

I do the same thing, Kristen; I wonder ... do you have any controls in place for making a distinction between those elements that are a matter of professional opinion and those that are a matter of technicality? Matters of technicality really should be accepted, of course, while those of opinion (such as involving flow, pacing, revealing of information, etc.) might be subject to debate.

No one except the author can take a bad book and make it shine.

It's interesting, Nomad, to get the opinion of an in-house editor. I had never thought that having a mss professionally edited before submission might actually make judging the author's writing more difficult. Like Kristen, my hope is that my edit might make the difference between being rejected because of one too many typos, or exposing information prematurely, etc.

And regarding Anthony and Nomad's comments about the house editor requiring changes based on house style, true, the author might end up paying for another round of editing if they choose to. I wonder what you would say to an author who has an agent recommending changes before representing the book ... My instinct is, "Keep looking!" (But this is not my forte.)

Kristen King · Sep 6, 2006

civilian chic said:
I do the same thing, Kristen; I wonder ... do you have any controls in place for making a distinction between those elements that are a matter of professional opinion and those that are a matter of technicality? Matters of technicality really should be accepted, of course, while those of opinion (such as involving flow, pacing, revealing of information, etc.) might be subject to debate.

No one except the author can take a bad book and make it shine.

CC, I go ahead and change the technical stuff, but I comment on the subjective stuff rather than actually making the changes. I may give an example of what I'm talking about, but it's not my book to write. I can fix your grammar and tell you what sucks/doesn't make sense/really doesn't work for me, but it's your job to write your book--unless you want to pay me to write it and let me put my name on it and get all the royalties, in which case, please call me immediately. ;]

As far as an agent recommending changes, that's not that unusual. If the agent insists on a particular editor to make those changes, that's not cool. However, I'd accept editor recommendations as a starting point from a verifiably legit agent if I didn't already have a pro in mind. I'd research them thoroughly, of course, but I'd do that with anyone I was going to hire to do anything, so editors shouldn't be any different.

kk

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Anthony Ravenscroft · Sep 6, 2006

Exactly, Kristen -- I could "fix" almost anything, even if it means massive surgery & an entirely new plot & cast of characters. But I can turn your Pacer into a Jaguar the same way -- cost of all parts, charges for dissassembly, & reassembly, et voila, a $400,000 XK-S, or about five to ten times what it'd cost ya to just buy the darn Jag in the first place.

CC, I'd advise any writer whose publisher was trying to fob editing charges off on them to consider terminating the contract. If the writer's not a Big Name, then no sane (or honest) publisher should be contracting for a book that needs significant work -- it smacks of poor business sense. After the first book, it's not a good sign, & a perspicacious writer should be working with an actual writing coach to get that text up to par, rather than paying the publisher to hire someone on Long Island to charge NYC rates to be a "book doctor."

Silver King · Sep 6, 2006

This is an interesting discussion supported by several capable editors. I know each is competent because I've studied their replies until my eyes began tearing; and I couldn't find a single error in any of their posts. I'd hire any one of them based solely on what I've read here. Fortunately, my work is pristine from start to finish, error free in a way that would make any editor gasp in disbelief.

If I had to choose one from this thread, and it's a relief that I don't, but if I was forced, I'd be making a check out to Kristen. With all other factors being equal, she's the only editor who provides a photo of herself. This works in her favor because her image radiates a feeling of depth and intelligence which, in her case, proves we haven't been deceived by appearances.

Kristen King · Sep 6, 2006

Aww, thanks, Silver. And all this time I thought you liked me because of the name thing. Turns out it's because I'm hot. ;]

AR, off topic but not, is there anything you think the writer should be paying the publisher for? I can't think of anything. Publishers pay writers, not the other way around. Writers can pay editors, but it should be because they want to. If a publisher insists on hiring an editor after acquiring the work, the publisher should be paying for it, or they shouldn't have acquired the work in the first place. Preparing an accepted manuscript for publication is the publisher's job.

Lauri, let me know if I'm missing something obvious that a writer should expect to pay for when working with a publisher. I may very well be having some kind of stupid attack because I'm basking in Silver's praise.

kk

Anthony Ravenscroft · Sep 7, 2006

Kristen, that's a question I'd never per se considered.

A publisher shouldn't be making the author pay for anything except if they want to buy more books (at a nice discount, of course).

If there are any excess costs, then they ought to be charged back against royalties... except that such charges should have been understood in the first place by all parties. For instance, if the publisher needs to hire someone to do graphs & charts for a textbook, then those costs are factored into overhead. Those illustrations are vital to the text. Therefore, they should have negotiated a slightly lower royalty & factored the illustrator into the costs.

There are plenty of "self-pub" companies that have all sorts of added charges & passed-along overhead that a writer would never face with a publisher.

I'm even against the practice of authors having returns charged to them, & sometimes requests for return of advance because of unforeseen costs. I know one author whose book was protested heavily in the 1960s. The house buckled, & then tried to say he was responsible for the costs to return & pulp all those units, as well as for work necessary to make the books palatable to the rabble they'd surrendered to! He took it to the Authors Guild (I think) & not only didn't have to pay out, but got the contract terminated & took the book to a less-spineless publisher. If they didn't see the metaphoric truck bearing down on them, then it was their corporate fault.

Lauri B · Sep 7, 2006

civilian chic said:
And regarding Anthony and Nomad's comments about the house editor requiring changes based on house style, true, the author might end up paying for another round of editing if they choose to. I wonder what you would say to an author who has an agent recommending changes before representing the book ... My instinct is, "Keep looking!" (But this is not my forte.)

No, I don't mean editing for house "style," I mean editing because the book needs structural changes, or doesn't have enough information or the content skews too much one way or another. House style implies to me that you're quibbling over whether to add that third comma in a list.

Anyway, I can only comment on nonfiction manuscripts, but if an agent recommended changes to me that I thought made sense, I would very likely try them out. The bottom line is that editors and agents are professional readers, have experience, and know who they are trying to sell to. I would take their comments quite seriously.

civilian chic · Sep 7, 2006

Nomad, I ask because I was recently at a writers conference and heard more than one horror story about writers querying agents only to be told, "We'd love to represent you, but first why don't you change your main character's age from 20 to 15..." or "Start your story with chapter 3...." Upon making the changes, the poor writer still wasn't picked up by the agent, but left with a main character the wrong age. (I realize this may be slipping out of your territory.)

And regarding the above discussion between Lauri, Kristen, Anthony and Silver, my understanding is that all charges are absorbed by the author, in the form of "overhead," subtracted from gross sales, upon which the writer's royalty check is based. Right?

(And Silver, as much as we editors have this thing for pristine writing, too many diamonds in the rough would put us out of business! I will put a pic up when I hit my 50 posts

)

Lauri B · Sep 7, 2006

Whoa, whoa, whoa--you think we CHARGE our authors for editing their work? Where on earth did you hear that legit publishers do that? I don't know of any publisher that charges authors in any way, shape, or form for editing their manuscripts so they are print-ready. Editing a book is part of the job--and when a publisher takes on an author, they take on the manuscript as they receive it, work together to revise it and make it as good as possible. I have never met a legit small publisher who incorporates time spent editing into any sort of financial penalties to the author. If we pick up a manuscript that needs more work than we initially thought, then we eat the time it takes to work with the author to fix it.

civilian chic · Sep 7, 2006

Nomad, I don't mean that the publisher actually charges the author for preparing the manuscript for publication; only that these are valid costs that contribute to overhead costs of publication, which are subtracted before a "gross" sales number is arrived at... and ultimately (I thought) that's where the author's royalty check comes from. For example, if an in-house editor spends a significant amount of time on a manuscript, that is time not spent on other manuscripts... This was my impression. I am just curious; as I mentioned, I don't know much about preparing a manuscript for publication beyond the edit.

CaoPaux · Sep 7, 2006

civilian chic said:
Nomad, I don't mean that the publisher actually charges the author for preparing the manuscript for publication; only that these are valid costs that contribute to overhead costs of publication, which are subtracted before a "gross" sales number is arrived at... and ultimately (I thought) that's where the author's royalty check comes from. For example, if an in-house editor spends a significant amount of time on a manuscript, that is time not spent on other manuscripts... This was my impression. I am just curious; as I mentioned, I don't know much about preparing a manuscript for publication beyond the edit.

Overhead costs are factored into the retail price. Nothing is subtracted from gross receipts, by its very definition. Are you thinking net profit? If so, authors who agree to royalties paid on net are risking A Bad Deal, since net can indeed be manipulated to pay out next to nothing.

CaoPaux · Sep 7, 2006

Having A Manuscript Edited

Kristen King

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

nevada

Gillhoughly

Grumpy writer and editor

adpickle

Kristen King

civilian chic

Kristen King

Anthony Ravenscroft

Scribble, scribble, scribble

Kristen King

Lauri B

I Heart Mac

Anthony Ravenscroft

Scribble, scribble, scribble

Kristen King

civilian chic

Kristen King

Anthony Ravenscroft

Scribble, scribble, scribble

Silver King

Megalops Erectus

Kristen King

Anthony Ravenscroft

Scribble, scribble, scribble

Lauri B

I Heart Mac

civilian chic

Lauri B

I Heart Mac

civilian chic

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless

CaoPaux

Mostly Harmless