- Joined
- Aug 5, 2009
- Messages
- 6,004
- Reaction score
- 1,233
Names in fantasy books....
- Thread starter RobertEvert
- Start date
- Status
Fantasy names can be difficult; I've even been told that some of mine are. Hey, how hard is it to say "Anangarragtha"? I took pity on my readers and shortened it to 'Ragtha in my characters' everyday speech.
Names are part of world-building. The city of Anangarragtha can be called by a shorter name, but it cannot be called Englewood.
Names are part of world-building. The city of Anangarragtha can be called by a shorter name, but it cannot be called Englewood.
Names are a fun and detrimental part of a story. I often like to name my characters so that the name fits the type of character they are. Overly complex names do not have to be used for a powerful character. Think of some of the most famous names. Gandalf, Dumbledore, Kvothe. Nothing crazy.
If you're a linguistic nerd, then Anangarragtha really does roll off the tongue: an-an-gar-RAWG-tha, for the easiest variation. Try learning Welsh and Finnish at age ten because you heard that Tolkien loved the languages - it scars you for life.
But I also have reader friends who automatically change any slightly-complex fantasy or science fiction name to 'Fred', so I can sympathize.
After 39+ years of reading, I cringe at too many apostrophes and too many names ending in -iel.
But I also have reader friends who automatically change any slightly-complex fantasy or science fiction name to 'Fred', so I can sympathize.
After 39+ years of reading, I cringe at too many apostrophes and too many names ending in -iel.
I think this crap started with Lovecraft (how the hell do you pronounce Cthulhu, anyway? Or R'lyeh?).
Ursula LeGuin, my nominee for the finest writer of Fantasy fiction evah, had a protagonist named Ged, with major characters named Ogion, Jasper, Vetch, Tehanu and places named Gont, Kargad, Roke, Atuan.
Nothing unpronounceable.
caw
K'thooloo. Ruh-l'yeh. Easy.
But then I have lived in Wales. If you can pronounce Glyndyfrdwy from a standing start, very little bothers you. The names that annoy me are the ones that have been thrown together by someone who doesn't know how the languages they're using work, or where you have to full-on stop between the consonants.
'MacLlewyn' was irritating on both counts.
But then I have lived in Wales. If you can pronounce Glyndyfrdwy from a standing start, very little bothers you. The names that annoy me are the ones that have been thrown together by someone who doesn't know how the languages they're using work, or where you have to full-on stop between the consonants.
'MacLlewyn' was irritating on both counts.
An elf named Joe
Nothing gets me into critical-mode faster than when names don't seem to have some frame of differentiation from one race to the next. We have the obvious differences from one culture of humans to the next, so how the heck could you think of passing off an elf named Joe in a fantasy setting with no reference to an American POV or cultural influence?
I'd buy an elf named Joe if this was an alternate America, or a portal fantasy whereby a group of Americans were stranded on another world/dimension and the names had a chance to enter into usage. Don't expect a culture to accept foreign names on a whim. Short of emigration to another country with a different culture, most people would likely retain their parentage's naming references. Short of becoming a superhero and saviour of the elven nation, I would toss a book that didn't explain to me why I'm caring about an elf named Joe.
I'm revising my fantasy novel and finding a lot of elves came through with apostrophes in their names. Once I failed to answer why they were there, they were removed. I had no plausible reasoning for it. That said, it doesn't mean I'll instantly drop a book that does use it - sparingly.
Nothing gets me into critical-mode faster than when names don't seem to have some frame of differentiation from one race to the next. We have the obvious differences from one culture of humans to the next, so how the heck could you think of passing off an elf named Joe in a fantasy setting with no reference to an American POV or cultural influence?
I'd buy an elf named Joe if this was an alternate America, or a portal fantasy whereby a group of Americans were stranded on another world/dimension and the names had a chance to enter into usage. Don't expect a culture to accept foreign names on a whim. Short of emigration to another country with a different culture, most people would likely retain their parentage's naming references. Short of becoming a superhero and saviour of the elven nation, I would toss a book that didn't explain to me why I'm caring about an elf named Joe.
I'm revising my fantasy novel and finding a lot of elves came through with apostrophes in their names. Once I failed to answer why they were there, they were removed. I had no plausible reasoning for it. That said, it doesn't mean I'll instantly drop a book that does use it - sparingly.
When I was ten or so, I had the mad idea of reading Evangeline Walton's magnificent translation/adaptation of the Mabinogion. 'Cuz, ya know, Lin Carter cited it as one of Tolkien's sources. My parents, astoundingly, encouraged this.
So stumbling into Patricia McKillip's 'Riddlemaster' series some years later and seeing names like Ghisteslwchlohm didn't really bother me.
Since I don't use Welsh in general conversation with native speakers, I've lost too many specific words to do more than occasionally decipher road signs on BBC programmes. And now I'm on an African and South Asian linguistic kick, for research. Who knows where that will lead?
So stumbling into Patricia McKillip's 'Riddlemaster' series some years later and seeing names like Ghisteslwchlohm didn't really bother me.
Since I don't use Welsh in general conversation with native speakers, I've lost too many specific words to do more than occasionally decipher road signs on BBC programmes. And now I'm on an African and South Asian linguistic kick, for research. Who knows where that will lead?
- Joined
- Nov 12, 2008
- Messages
- 6,137
- Reaction score
- 694
MacLlewyn? Ouch!
Had an interesting conversation with husband the other day about how to pronounce a road name we saw. What was it, Gliwice Way? yeah.
Had an interesting conversation with husband the other day about how to pronounce a road name we saw. What was it, Gliwice Way? yeah.
My sorcerer's name is William.
It's not just fantasy novels; I recently read a mystery in which the victim's last name began with five consonants, and no clue to the reader as to how it was pronounced. (There's a scene where the detective is asking a doctor how she's doing, and the doctor says "Oh, so that's how you pronounce her name." Yes, author, that's hysterical; could you provide a clue for the reader, please?)
Sometimes linguistic rules are ingrained in a writer's mind, and they don't stop to think how difficult it would be for someone not from their culture/locale.
Hints are always good.
Hints are always good.
I just got reminded of an ad that ran in the UK when 'Jif' the cleaning product changed it's name to 'Cif' in most of Europe. It had people from all over Europe saying 'Jif', from the British-sounding 'Djiff' to the German-sounding 'Yiff' to the Spanish-sounding 'Heefv'. Hilarious, but it made the point.
Actually, I've never been sure how to pronounce "Atuan." Is it AT-wan? Or at-TOO-ahn? Or at-too-AHN?
Even short and simple names can sometimes pose pronunciation problems.
Liosse de Velishaf
Banned
I always thought of it as "AH-too-ahn"
But yes, even short names can be hard to figure out the correct pronunciation. That said, as long as you can come up with something that is simple to remember and feels possible, it doesn't really matter how you pronounce a short name.
William is a good, sturdy name. After all, it suited Tolkien's trolls!
I also like Molly.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2012
- Messages
- 174
- Reaction score
- 54
- Location
- Dallas, Texas
- Website
- www.thetexfiles.com
I'll just throw in that I'm a fan of names that don't set off the spellchecker.
Mrs. Cake happens to be a resident of Ankh-Morpork, but she could just as easily reside in some other fantasy world. I also enjoyed the nobility in Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy - Lady Patience, King Shrewd, Prince Verity, et al - and have yet to meet a character as on-the-nose repulsive as Faulkner's nasty sheriff, Butch Lovemaiden.
I think when you see names like these, either naturally in English
or translated from the character's native language, you get a neat little mini-hint of how their culture operates. Given that there are a hundred useful things you can convey with a name - you know, parentage or achievement or virtue or station or ANYTHING! - I absolutely agree with the OP: it is a dang shame when the author foregoes all that to fling so much syllabic spaghetti at a wall!
Mrs. Cake happens to be a resident of Ankh-Morpork, but she could just as easily reside in some other fantasy world. I also enjoyed the nobility in Robin Hobb's Farseer Trilogy - Lady Patience, King Shrewd, Prince Verity, et al - and have yet to meet a character as on-the-nose repulsive as Faulkner's nasty sheriff, Butch Lovemaiden.
I think when you see names like these, either naturally in English
or translated from the character's native language, you get a neat little mini-hint of how their culture operates. Given that there are a hundred useful things you can convey with a name - you know, parentage or achievement or virtue or station or ANYTHING! - I absolutely agree with the OP: it is a dang shame when the author foregoes all that to fling so much syllabic spaghetti at a wall!
Ah, but the point is, it doesn't matter how Ursula LeGuin wants you to pronounce it (and I don't think she gives a rat's). It's pronounceable. It isn't Gzkragvlblxqmrnorg.
caw
Liosse de Velishaf
Banned
What manga are you reading, dude? I can't think of any manga with names I'd have to struggle to pronounce.
Mostly I'm referring to having to hear a lot of foreign names, all of which sound similar and that my brain has trouble placing with the characters face.
Picking names for my characters gives me a headache. I envy people who can think of original pronounceable names.
As all of my characters are human I decided to stick with traditional human names. When our parents named us they didn't know whether we'd become heroes or villains.I personaily think a villain called Bob would be brilliant.
Now I put down the first names I think of that are not similar sounding to the others, thinking I could change them later. I never do. The names always seem to stick.
As all of my characters are human I decided to stick with traditional human names. When our parents named us they didn't know whether we'd become heroes or villains.I personaily think a villain called Bob would be brilliant.
Now I put down the first names I think of that are not similar sounding to the others, thinking I could change them later. I never do. The names always seem to stick.
I think several of you hit on something very important.
Names have to reflect the culture and the world the author is creating. If all the other elves or dwarves and so forth have names like "Barak-a-dar," writers can't get away with somebody of the same race named "Joe"... unless there's a reason for it.
Names have to have a common thread. This helps build the cohesion of the world.
I think picking good names is the most difficult part. As somebody here said, they need to reflect characteristics of the character. "Sauron" certainly sounds evil and "Frodo" sounds exactly like how I picture a hobbit, light and carefree.
Thanks for all the wonderful advice. You're all helping me write a better story!
Names have to reflect the culture and the world the author is creating. If all the other elves or dwarves and so forth have names like "Barak-a-dar," writers can't get away with somebody of the same race named "Joe"... unless there's a reason for it.
Names have to have a common thread. This helps build the cohesion of the world.
I think picking good names is the most difficult part. As somebody here said, they need to reflect characteristics of the character. "Sauron" certainly sounds evil and "Frodo" sounds exactly like how I picture a hobbit, light and carefree.
Thanks for all the wonderful advice. You're all helping me write a better story!
I'm a bit of a hypocrite; I hate seeing rampant apostrophes in fantasy character names, yet the surnames of the characters and the cities/towns in the fantasy novel I'm writing have dashes galore. Then again, I have a reason for it (vague imitation of old French), and they're still pronounceable.
If I absolutely cannot pronounce the names in a book, it really turns me off. But I rather enjoy uncommon or completely made up names, so long as I can pronounce them. New names quite interest me.
Though at the end of the day, I agree that the structure of names should be consistent with the rest of the characters of that race/nationality/what have you.
If I absolutely cannot pronounce the names in a book, it really turns me off. But I rather enjoy uncommon or completely made up names, so long as I can pronounce them. New names quite interest me.
Though at the end of the day, I agree that the structure of names should be consistent with the rest of the characters of that race/nationality/what have you.
The reader isn't supposed to be able to pronounce those names correctly. Lovecraft wanted to convey a feeling of inhuman strangeness; he started with names and words.
- Status