A quandary - openers

I'm more interested in character than setting, so I'd prefer the opening with MC1. And, no - a "fuck" on the first page, be it the word or the act, would not faze me.

I'd go with whoever is the main-main. I've written more than one novel that has two leads, but there is always one that has a bit more of the story to call her own than the other.

Whoever you start with, do what you can to end with that same person, to give the story the necessary circularity. If you know who you need to end with, then that might just answer the question of the opening for you.

Regarding the other thing... I've been told I sometimes use the F word too often, but even I wouldn't put it on the first page. I think the earliest I ever placed one was on page 5. As a reader, too, I don't like to see it right away. But that's just me.

Since it sounds like both characters will set up the story, go with your gut.

Yeah, I know, less than helpful.

I've read books that suggest you stick with your lead protagonist for a good long chunk before POV-shifting to a secondary protagonist to make sure your reader is fully grounded and attached. I'd go with your lead. And if that's somehow disappointing to think about, maybe someone else should be your lead.

Ardent Kat said:

I've read books that suggest you stick with your lead protagonist for a good long chunk before POV-shifting to a secondary protagonist to make sure your reader is fully grounded and attached. I'd go with your lead. And if that's somehow disappointing to think about, maybe someone else should be your lead.

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I'm curious what these books define as "a good long chunk." A chapter? Fifty pages? A hundred pages?

IdiotsRUs said:

So I have this MS. It has two protags, one is more the lead than the other, but not by much. POV alternates between them. So my quandary is this: which POV do I start with?

MC1 - nominally the lead. Ish. A more flamboyant character and his first scene sets up the sort of book it is, that is a con caper.

MC2 - Less colourful, but imo no less interesting (I would say that, wouldn't I?) However his first scene sets up the fantastic element straight from the off, and also sets up the plot.

So, which to start with?

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I had the same problem with my WIP, only with three protags. I chose between them based not on the main characters, but on the other plot elements in their introductory scenes.

MC1 - Shows the setting, introduces an important minor character, has only two scenes. Mood is humorous.

MC2 - Shows the setting, gives history, concurrent with MC1, intros two minor characters, has three scenes. Mood is detective/mystery.

MC3 - Starts in a separate and unimportant setting, no set time period, has two scenes. Mood is somber/start of quest.

I put them in that order -- 1, 2, 3. My reasoning was that I want to start with the humor in hopes that it's more appealing. MC2's chapter is more complex than the others, and I didn't want to barrage the reader with info right out of the gate. MC3 could have gone first (and on a timeline that chapter probably is first), but it has nothing to do with the setting, so I decided to put it off until necessary.

If I go with MC1 is a 'fuck' on the first page going to put you off? If I go with MC2 will the fantastic draw you in, or would you rather see the colourful character first?

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I appreciate a 'fuck' in the first chapter, because as a reader it warns me about profanity in the rest of the novel. I don't have a problem with it. Can't say whether the fantastic is appealing or off-putting until I read it; that comes down to the writer's skill.

Lydia Sharp said:

I'd go with whoever is the main-main.

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I agree with this sentiment.

Unfortunately, like everything, there are exceptions to this rule. And sometimes you learn that your main character isn't actually the most interesting.

IdiotsRUs said:

If I go with MC1 is a 'fuck' on the first page going to put you off?

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It wouldn't necessarily put me off. It really depends on what's happening on that first page and on the character. To be honest, I don't appreciate authors who use profanity just for the sake of making a character seem 'bad' or 'animated.' If we're in a very intense scene, where I--the reader--think, 'oh fuck,' then I would be okay with reading it on the page. Or...if the character is developed enough that I would expect him to say 'fuck,' then I wouldn't mind. But I admit to being a bit prejudiced when I see profanity right off the bat, and I tend to assume that the author is relying on the profanity to define the character. That's just me. I know, I suck.

If I go with MC2 will the fantastic draw you in, or would you rather see the colourful character first?

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I would actually prefer to be drawn into a story by the story itself (the fantasy), rather than a 'colorful character.' So...I guess my vote is for MC2.

FWIW I'm pretty sure I know which I'm going to go with, but I thought it'd be interesting to see which kind of opener people prefer.

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Any chance you're going to tell us which MC you're going to open with?

IdiotsRUs said:

Maybe I'll put the first 500 of each in SYW, see which grabs people as the better opener. Of course, I didn't write MC1's scene as an opener.

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I hope you do! I would love to read them both.

ChaosTitan said:

I'm curious what these books define as "a good long chunk." A chapter? Fifty pages? A hundred pages?

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I'd go with 'long enough to care about the character'. And the transition to the next main should probably have a direct tie-in to the original main.

MC2, which I think was your own choice too, IRU so here's my reasoning:

On the first page I need to see tension, good writing and get an idea for the feel of the story. If the story's not going to be colourful character throughout then I don't want to be misled. If there's a fantastical element then I need a hint of that sooner rather than later. It would also help to have some early idea of where the story's going, plot-wise, but I don't need to know that it will feature a confidence trick. But seeing swearing early -- especially if it's ahead of mood, setting and character-establishment -- would persuade me that the author didn't know how to write dialogue.

Yeah, like a lot have said, go with the colorful character first. For me, that's specially important since you said that introducing this character first would shed light on the story and fantastic elements of the story... I'd start with that, regardless of whom is the more lead character

From easiest to hardest:

1. The first three words of the novel can be "fuck", for all I care. And, yes, three is an arbitrary number, but as the fuck-ratio approaches 100 % I get increasingly bored (at some point it even stops mattering if you misspell some, put other in italics or capitals... such tricks will only take you so far.)

Of course, if anyone puts in a "fuck" for shock value, they'll lose me. If they're just being shocking I'll raise my eyebrow at them, but I can forgive that. But anyone who thinks it's possible to offend me with a "fuck", is bound for unintentional comedy.

Finally, RemusShepard makes a good point. If your story's going to contain fucks, and you're afraid they're offensive to a portion of your target readership, use them early. You may lose a few readers who would otherwise have forgiven you on account of your brilliance; but of those that you keep fewer will be... let's call it disappointed. (Which may mean a slower start but better word of mouth. Or not.)

Aside:

RuvDraba said:

But seeing swearing early -- especially if it's ahead of mood, setting and character-establishment -- would persuade me that the author didn't know how to write dialogue.

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Why?

2. I've now read the openings in the other, and I still don't have any idea. The second one is quicker, which may be an unfair advantage with a set amount of words.

For the record, I don't need an action-packed start. I don't need the story to start with the main character. I don't need conflict right away. I have none of the preference, at least not consciously, that have been mentioned so far.

If you really can't decide which to put first, split the page in two as long as the strands are parallel, and put one left and one right. Of course, since we read from left to right that doesn't entirely solve the problem. And it's probably going to annoy many.

3. Whatever scene you put first will influence how I read the scene that comes second. If some element introduced in scene 1 lessens a surprise in scene 2, that's a point for starting with scene 2. If an element in scene 1 helps reduce the amount of exposition necessary in scene 2, that's a point for scene 1 (unless the element in question is exposition in scene 1 also, in which case introduce it in the scene that has less action [as exposition tends to interrupt less in slower scenes], and the point goes to that scene). For example, the slower scene, setting up magic, can serve to up the threat level in the faster scene, only by having a mage in the tavern (say, if there are auto-scrying powers or something that a previous scene set up).

In your case, referencing the character from scene 2 at the end of scene 1 (numbered as posted in that thread) has an effect on how I see that character, initially.

Mention - then introduce in scene: So that's the character who did X.

Introduce in scene - then mention: Ah, so that character did X. Was he aware of what he got himself into, I wonder?

I'm slightly drawn to "epic" in the first sequence, and towards "picaresque" in the second sequence; but the effect isn't that big and might not be big enough to base a decision on.

On the first page I need to see tension, good writing and get an idea for the feel of the story. If the story's not going to be colourful character throughout then I don't want to be misled. If there's a fantastical element then I need a hint of that sooner rather than later. It would also help to have some early idea of where the story's going, plot-wise, but I don't need to know that it will feature a confidence trick. But seeing swearing early -- especially if it's ahead of mood, setting and character-establishment -- would persuade me that the author didn't know how to write dialogue.

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This.

Sorry I don't have anything else helpful to add. It's raining here, and it's Friday, so I think I'm not really awake yet.

IdiotsRUs said:

That confuses the issue, cos I said it was the less colourful character that set up the fantastical elements

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Oops . I shouldn't post while I'm half-way asleep, lol. Anyway, fantastical elements win, imo.

I guess at the end of the day, it's only you who decides what to show us, not us. Let me let you in on a little unknown secret... Readers don't know what they want *gasp*! Yeah, they don't, mostly because readers aren't a single consciousness and therefor, having varying tastes and needs. Going from this, you take the readers by the neck and show 'em what you want to show 'em

IdiotsRUs said:

Lol so split consensus

*headdesk*

At least I know it wasn't just me!

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Poor thing.

How about a pro/con list? Or the very trustworthy method of closing your eyes and pulling one out of a hat?

Really, if neither opener changes the way we view the characters, I think you just get to do what makes you happy. And I second Ehab's sentiment: the readers won't know any different, because they'll only know what you give them.

Good luck, IRU!