Dealing with Beta Reader Feedback...

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ReflectedGray

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Hello,

So i'm new. I hope i'm allowed to post threads here. Anyway, I wanted to ask how you all deal with feedback from readers (not agents or editors, but just random people).

I'm in graduate school, so I'm VERY used to constructive criticism. I actually really appreciate it, because I find that its one of the few ways to actually prompt me to make my writing truly better. I've gotten a lot of feedback from a writing group in my area and my sister (who is brutal and also a writer, lol). There has definitely been some stuff that I needed to fix, but its been pretty positive overall.

However, I recently posted my query letter on another website, and I was really surprised by some of the feedback. At first I was like *WOW* I need to do some revisions, but then I looked into their work a bit and I felt like their queries sometimes lacked a solid grasp on grammar. I was really surprised by how mean people could be.

How do you guys shift through feedback of other budding writers and figure out what is really solid and what might less so?


[p.s: This is absolutely not supposed to hate on anyone in particular or anyone on this site. Its just a general question about how to shift through feedback from the public.]
 

Arcadia Divine

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If I find a destructive remark to a story I post here (it's been a long time since I posted), I'll ask them to be more constructive or to elaborate. They almost always refuse and in some cases it gets worse. When I sift through the feedback, if it's mostly destructive, I'll discard it. It eventually progressed to the point where I refuse to post stories here. In my mind I have better things to do than listen to overwhelmingly destructive remarks. I post my stories elsewhere now and the feedback is much more helpful to me.
 

Putputt

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Before plunging into QLH with my query, I spent months lurking and reading as many of the query threads as I could. Then I critiqued as many queries as I could. Overtime, I noticed which critiquers I'm most likely to agree with, which critiquers tend to be harsh, and which critiquers I tend to disagree with. When it came time to post my own query, I knew which critiquers I put more value on.

ETA:
If I find a destructive remark to a story I post here (it's been a long time since I posted), I'll ask them to be more constructive or to elaborate. They almost always refuse and in some cases it gets worse. When I sift through the feedback, if it's mostly destructive, I'll discard it. It eventually progressed to the point where I refuse to post stories here. In my mind I have better things to do than listen to overwhelmingly destructive remarks. I post my stories elsewhere now and the feedback is much more helpful to me.

That's quite surprising to hear. Did you report them? The mods here are very good with making sure that no one breaks RYFW, so if someone was being malicious in their crit, you should definitely report them.
 
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Arcadia Divine

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That's quite surprising to hear. Did you report them? The mods here are very good with making sure that no one breaks RYFW, so if someone was being malicious in their crit, you should definitely report them.

I actually have, but out of respect for the mods, I'm not publicly saying any more than that.
 

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Using critiques is a whole new set of skills to learn. You might already know this but some people don't, so here's my system, fwiw:

First, since someone answering your request for assistance is a favor, almost always, the only proper response to a critique is "Thank you." Even better to say your thank yous before you read the critiques. Arguing just puts off other possible critters. Asking for clarification on a point is fine as long as it's not really veiled arguing. Even worse is when people start innocent-sounding threads that try to enlist others to say they are right and the critiquer is wrong, lol. It's only suggestions, not orders, and one person's opinion. It is to take or leave. A few people are weirdly rude. But imo more often the writer is just not used to corrections.

If you get confused, overwhelmed, or angry, I'd set it aside for awhile. Come back when you can see it like someone else wrote it.

Then, either go through the critiques one at a time, or read all the comments for each part together. If you want, copy and paste them to one copy. Either way is fine, imo. I usually end up only using a small percentage of suggestions offered, maybe ten percent.

As you go through the critiques, make all the changes that jump out at you. Mark them off on the critiqued copies as you go so you know they're handled.

Cross out all the ones that jump out at you as not useful.

That leaves the "maybes." If more than one person comments on something, reconsider. Even if you don't agree with their idea of what's wrong or how to fix it, something there might be tripping people up.

When in doubt, leave it the way you had it. You have an overall vision in mind when you write. Haphazardly changing things can mess it up. And, of course, just because someone critiques your work doesn't mean they know any more than you do.

Also, don't forget to give back (again, some people really don't seem to know this). Besides being only fair, I have to say critiquing other people's work has improved my writing more than anything else. After you do a few dozen of them, you notice there are many common newbie "no-nos." Then they stand out to you in neon and you don't do them anymore. Focus on returning the favor with the ones whose critique was helpful. Try to build critting relationships with them. Good luck.
 
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I actually have, but out of respect for the mods, I'm not publicly saying any more than that.

If you have a complaint, contact MacAllister, the owner, or stop this passive-aggressive nonsense.

It's obnoxious and obstructive.
 

Fruitbat

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@ReflectedGray, your post reminds me of a small critique site I went on once. The "in" clique would shred the newcomers' work with vicious glee and the owner would back them up. A couple of people even sent me private sympathy messages about it. For example, instead of saying something didn't work, the comment I received there was "You are an idiot." It was bizarre. I got into a dirty name-calling match with the owner that was so stupid I ended up in hysterical laughter. So I guess you just never know. LOL!
 
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The point of a crit is not to "shred" anything.

It's about making the text better.

Some suggestions:

  • Start with a one-sentence summary regarding what the text is about.
  • Specify what worked for you in the text.
  • Specify what didn't work for you.
  • Provide one or more suggestions about making the text better.

Writers: Remember that the text isn't you. It isn't "your baby." It's an object. Moreover, you can follow the suggestions, or ignore them, but either way, be courteous and appreciative regarding the effort your critter has made.

Critters: Remember that you can be kind and honest at the same time. Remember your goal is to help make the text better.
 

ReflectedGray

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Wow, I really appreciate this feedback. I think perhaps I was taking everyone's feedback a bit too seriously. In my graduate program I am pretty conditioned to make the changes my professors suggest, not only because they will be accepting or rejecting my work, but because they have years and years more experience than me.

I suppose creative writing is very different. I got so overwhelmed trying to respond to everyone's comments. I liked the suggestion to spend some time getting to know people's commenting style before posting my work. I think that will be helpful. In the reading I've done I have really agreed with a lot of things said, but sometimes disagree as well. Its a good idea to have a sense of peoples' individual styles before trying to incorporate it into my own work.

Thanks all!
 

Deleted member 42

It's also a great idea to just step back after the crit, thank everyone, and think about the feedback for a day or two before doing anything.

And use this experience as prep for your thesis or dissertation committee.
 

Putputt

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It's also a great idea to just step back after the crit, thank everyone, and think about the feedback for a day or two before doing anything.

And use this experience as prep for your thesis or dissertation committee.

This is great advice. I sometimes see people arguing with the critiquers. I think that's in very bad taste. We don't have to agree with every piece of crit that was given, but I find that the best thing to do when you disagree with a piece of advice is to thank the critiquer for their time, take whatever you agree with, and leave the rest.
 

Izz

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Yep, time = emotional distance = more objectivity, at least in my experience.

Crits that can seem really harsh when first read often appear quite useful a day or two later.
 

andiwrite

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I'm currently going through beta-reader hell. I thought QLH was bad. No... This is an entire new level of hell I was not prepared for.

I don't mind critiques, and if there was some sort of great and powerful guru of writing who could harshly tell me everything that was wrong with my novel, I'd gladly listen! But there isn't. That's the hardest part of all of this.

I have had over 10 people look at my novel now and I have never been more confused in my life. I literally feel like I can't win no matter what I do--and this is an extremely important lesson to learn. You really cannot please everyone! NO MATTER WHAT! This should be evident not only in the world of literature but film as well. Go on Netflix and look up your favorite film. Read the reviews. I guarantee there will be people saying they hated it.

I'm going to be much more careful with protecting my mindset when I seek critiques in the future. I made the horrible mistake of listening to too many people who said my opening chapter was slow, pointless or boring and I chopped tons of it out, and now all my reviews are saying things like "Is this a first draft, it seems very thin?" and "Where is the character development?"

I'm like *screams and rips hair out* The character development is all gone because I came at it with a chainsaw after everyone told me it was pointless! In fact, one particularly nice beta actually told me he could see how scared I was over not getting published in the writing...I had lost my confidence, and I was trying to please everyone. It turned my strong and believable voice into a little scared mouse, huddling in the corner.

I'm learning to stop taking everyone's word as some sort of God rule of writing when most of them are writers just like me, learning and growing as they go along. Besides, some of my betas have literally given me exact opposite advice. ("This is the strongest scene in the chapter" vs" You should remove this scene, it adds nothing") How is a person supposed to make sense of that? Sometimes, you really do have to throw advice out the window and realize that person just isn't your target audience. I never allowed myself permission to say no to some of that advice, and that has really done me in. :(

So yeah, I am having my last beta reader look at my chapter today, and from there, I'm going at it on my own. I'm going to sit with my writing and remember the story I wanted to tell. I'm going to reconnect to my character and fine tune the words to be something I feel proud of. And while I will remember the critiques I received, I will not let them dictate who my character is or where his path will lead him. I originally felt connected to this story, and there will be an audience out there who will accept it for what it is, and maybe even love it.
 

Drachen Jager

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You're right, it isn't possible to please everyone, but if your betas are well-read and open-minded, they will be pleased when you get it right.

I forget who it was, but one of the older hands around here writes gay romance, which I have to say is not my bag. She posted some work once and although I could instantly tell it wasn't my thing, I could also tell it was good.

You can have fast-paced action and character development. It's not a one or the other proposition. In fact I find that a good conflict draws far more out of your characters than a hundred dry pages ever could.

I think the thing you need to assimilate is that writing is a journey. It may take you a few novels to really figure everything out and almost nobody hits it out of the park on their first try. At some point you need to accept that everything you write is just a way to get one step closer to something publishable. Then when you get published, everything is a step closer to getting that breakout novel that everyone* likes.

* or at least enough people that it pays to keep writing and quit your day job.
 
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cornflake

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I'm currently going through beta-reader hell. I thought QLH was bad. No... This is an entire new level of hell I was not prepared for.

I don't mind critiques, and if there was some sort of great and powerful guru of writing who could harshly tell me everything that was wrong with my novel, I'd gladly listen! But there isn't. That's the hardest part of all of this.

I have had over 10 people look at my novel now and I have never been more confused in my life. I literally feel like I can't win no matter what I do--and this is an extremely important lesson to learn. You really cannot please everyone! NO MATTER WHAT! This should be evident not only in the world of literature but film as well. Go on Netflix and look up your favorite film. Read the reviews. I guarantee there will be people saying they hated it.

I'm going to be much more careful with protecting my mindset when I seek critiques in the future. I made the horrible mistake of listening to too many people who said my opening chapter was slow, pointless or boring and I chopped tons of it out, and now all my reviews are saying things like "Is this a first draft, it seems very thin?" and "Where is the character development?"

I'm like *screams and rips hair out* The character development is all gone because I came at it with a chainsaw after everyone told me it was pointless! In fact, one particularly nice beta actually told me he could see how scared I was over not getting published in the writing...I had lost my confidence, and I was trying to please everyone. It turned my strong and believable voice into a little scared mouse, huddling in the corner.

I'm learning to stop taking everyone's word as some sort of God rule of writing when most of them are writers just like me, learning and growing as they go along. Besides, some of my betas have literally given me exact opposite advice. ("This is the strongest scene in the chapter" vs" You should remove this scene, it adds nothing") How is a person supposed to make sense of that? Sometimes, you really do have to throw advice out the window and realize that person just isn't your target audience. I never allowed myself permission to say no to some of that advice, and that has really done me in. :(

So yeah, I am having my last beta reader look at my chapter today, and from there, I'm going at it on my own. I'm going to sit with my writing and remember the story I wanted to tell. I'm going to reconnect to my character and fine tune the words to be something I feel proud of. And while I will remember the critiques I received, I will not let them dictate who my character is or where his path will lead him. I originally felt connected to this story, and there will be an audience out there who will accept it for what it is, and maybe even love it.

The point isn't really to please everyone (or anyone, I suppose), though I know what you're saying.

Beta readers, good ones, and I'm going to go with the presumption that we're talking about good ones in a general sense, have different strengths, likes, feelings about stuff, etc.

Some nitpick grammar, some don't notice that type of error much; some are all about the grand arcs, some are very into character development, and some overlap into those and other areas. They're all trying to help you look at your work with fresh eyes.

Think of it like asking a bunch of people to help you decorate your house.

You live there; you made all the decisions and think it looks good, but hey, maybe someone could just, you know, suggest that thing that'd turn it into a magazine layout.

So, you ask 10 people over. One says the paint all needs to be changed. One says the furniture is too big and the rugs are too dark. Another says the paint should change and you need lighter curtains. A couple say better lighting/different fixtures because it's dark, and different paint.

You think, ok, and change the paint, the rugs, the furniture and the curtains. Then you invite them back and now they're like, 'hmm, I dunno, it's all so ... white.' You kill several and stash the bodies under the stairs.

You figure they were crazy anyway, can't please everyone and you should've just left it the way it was because they're just picking on shit to pick.

What you never put together is that they were actually all saying the same thing - the house is too dark. You just changed a lot of stuff to lighter colours, but that doesn't really help the underlying issue; it just made everything lighter-coloured. You tried to fix it by doing the things but missed the problem.

Had you maybe gotten sheer curtains to let in light, not white ones, and a colour of paint that was just a shade lighter, with maybe some new lamps and larger-watt bulbs, you might have had the magazine layout. It just can take some back-and-forth to figure out the problem, but there's usually a middle ground and when you take down the curtains people go 'oooh, that's much better, couch doesn't look so big now.'
 

Tamlyn

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cornflake put that really well

/agrees
 

mccardey

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Good betas are worth their weight in gold, but a writer needs to accept the responsibility for their own work. A beta can't make a writer make changes. A good writer makes the changes she thinks will work.

I'm going to sit with my writing and remember the story I wanted to tell. I'm going to reconnect to my character and fine tune the words to be something I feel proud of. And while I will remember the critiques I received, I will not let them dictate who my character is or where his path will lead him.

Excellent!
 

andiwrite

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What you never put together is that they were actually all saying the same thing - the house is too dark. You just changed a lot of stuff to lighter colours, but that doesn't really help the underlying issue; it just made everything lighter-coloured. You tried to fix it by doing the things but missed the problem.

I get what you're saying, and when it comes to some issues, my betas have helped me in this way. But what do you do when the advice you're getting is the equivalent of one group of people saying you should bulldoze out a huge window to make the room more light and another group saying you should board up the windows because it's too light?

That's the main problem I'm having. Small nitpicks aside (most of which have been very helpful), the overall beta opinion of my chapter seems to fall into too categories: 1) it's way too slow, boring, pointless characters/info that isn't essential to the plot or 2) It's moving too fast, it feels rushed, they want more info, they want more backstory on the characters, etc.

I agree that quickness doesn't necessarily mean there can't be character development, and I'm working on that. But I do think some of this just comes down to personal preferences.

And Drachen, I'm with you completelyabout not expecting the first novel to be the gold winner. I will keep trying to improve and sell this story, but I'm way more excited about everything I have lined up for the future. :)
 

Australian River

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I have had over 10 people look at my novel now and I have never been more confused in my life. I literally feel like I can't win no matter what I do--and this is an extremely important lesson to learn. You really cannot please everyone! NO MATTER WHAT! This should be evident not only in the world of literature but film as well. Go on Netflix and look up your favorite film. Read the reviews. I guarantee there will be people saying they hated it.

.

That's exactly right. I do it with my favourite books and movies all the time to remind me to have fate in my work. It also happens to me the other way round - I see 19k 5 star reviews of a work but I end up being among the 600 who hate it.

I also feel that feedback should be on the overall feel of the novel, not be like microsurgery on every single sentence.
 

mccardey

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But what do you do when the advice you're getting is the equivalent of one group of people saying you should bulldoze out a huge window to make the room more light and another group saying you should board up the windows because it's too light?

I'm not the Flake, but I'd say you do what you said before. You listen, you consider and you use that to make a decision about what's best for your story. And then you own it as your decision.
 

Australian River

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So, you ask 10 people over. One says the paint all needs to be changed. One says the furniture is too big and the rugs are too dark. Another says the paint should change and you need lighter curtains. A couple say better lighting/different fixtures because it's dark, and different paint.

'

To be a nitpicker with this metaphor :) a house can look whatever way you want it to look because you live in it and no one else, but with a book, if you want other people to read it, if you want to give your work over to the general population you need to make sure the target audience will like it, and in that is the hard part - in finding the balance between what you want to write and what others want to read
 

cornflake

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I get what you're saying, and when it comes to some issues, my betas have helped me in this way. But what do you do when the advice you're getting is the equivalent of one group of people saying you should bulldoze out a huge window to make the room more light and another group saying you should board up the windows because it's too light?

That's the main problem I'm having. Small nitpicks aside (most of which have been very helpful), the overall beta opinion of my chapter seems to fall into too categories: 1) it's way too slow, boring, pointless characters/info that isn't essential to the plot or 2) It's moving too fast, it feels rushed, they want more info, they want more backstory on the characters, etc.

I agree that quickness doesn't necessarily mean there can't be character development, and I'm working on that. But I do think some of this just comes down to personal preferences.

And Drachen, I'm with you completelyabout not expecting the first novel to be the gold winner. I will keep trying to improve and sell this story, but I'm way more excited about everything I have lined up for the future. :)

It may be personal preferences - it also may be that they're expressing that it's not working for them, but in different ways. I don't know. Sometimes it's people wanting their own idea. Sometimes it's that there's the middle ground you're not considering.

I'm not the Flake, but I'd say you do what you said before. You listen, you consider and you use that to make a decision about what's best for your story. And then you own it as your decision.

I agree; I'm just saying that even though opinions seem to be contradictory doesn't necessarily mean they are or that they're not all saying the same essential thing. It's your own work regardless and you do have to do what you think is best.

To be a nitpicker with this metaphor :) a house can look whatever way you want it to look because you live in it and no one else, but with a book, if you want other people to read it, if you want to give your work over to the general population you need to make sure the target audience will like it, and in that is the hard part - in finding the balance between what you want to write and what others want to read

Yes and no. In general, I'm not a fan of the 'target audience' idea. I think it's more about making the book work - making the narrative flow, making the story engaging, drawing real characters, etc. As DJ said, mostly even in work you're not personally interested in, or that you don't even like, good from bad is discernible.

There's a lot I've read and seen that I didn't personally like, but that I thought was well-written. I've liked stuff that I've thought was not well-written. I like good stuff and dislike bad and have feelings about the middle. Doesn't mean I can't tell.

Thus I think it's less about what you want to write and learning to write well.
 

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It may be personal preferences - it also may be that they're expressing that it's not working for them, but in different ways. I don't know. Sometimes it's people wanting their own idea. Sometimes it's that there's the middle ground you're not considering.

I'm definitely considering it and trying to find my way there. At least I've also had a few betas who completely loved it. If it wasn't for knowing it works for SOMEONE I might go nuts!
 

Drachen Jager

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I'm definitely considering it and trying to find my way there. At least I've also had a few betas who completely loved it. If it wasn't for knowing it works for SOMEONE I might go nuts!

This is a hard thing to do, but often you have to put those people last if you're really going to improve your writing. It's a great sign that those people exist, but now you need to focus on the negatives other betas point out so you can at least get a majority of betas loving it.

Even then it's no guarantee. Every beta I had on my last novel said it was great and they expected to see it on bookshelves, but agents don't seem interested at all.
 

andiwrite

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This is a hard thing to do, but often you have to put those people last if you're really going to improve your writing. It's a great sign that those people exist, but now you need to focus on the negatives other betas point out so you can at least get a majority of betas loving it.

Agreed. One thing that's hard is that usually, I only have each beta read it once. So aside from a few people who read it 2-3 times (bless them), I never really know if those same people would think it improved with each revision. I only know what the new betas think of it.
 
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