Admitting untried women into London's Newgate 1816

cooeedownunder

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I have been trying to determine where prisoners (in particular women) entered London’s Newgate Prison in 1816. There appears to be only three main entrances into Newgate Prison, one via the debitor's door (on that left side of the building), and another via the Keepers lodgings. There is a door to the right of the prision although I can't determine the name of the entry point.

There are another two entry points at the side of the jail, one leading into the condemned cells, and one leading to the Old Bailey.

I need to determine where women entered prior to their trials when brought directly from a magistrate - not the court (although that may be the right entrance), and two, where they would have had leg irons put on within the jail.

Any suggestions?
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Shakesbear

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There is some info here: http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/newgate.html about women prisoners - second paragraph - but you might already have seen that.

The Old Bailey is a road and the 'other' name for the Central Criminal Courts - does the door you mention lead to the road or the court? I think that the present CCC is built on the site of Newgate Prison.
 

cooeedownunder

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The map says The Passage to the Sessions Court – and as the Old Bailey was adjacent to it, it is unclear if it goes under the street into the Old Bailey or out onto the road. I read one account taken many years after, when people were entering the woman’s section via the Old Bailey door into Newgate – although again it is not clear if from within the court or the from the street. I think I have also read that entry point was also where they buried the commended underneath. Accounts of entering the jail by Dickens and Elizabeth Fry are from the Keeper or the Governors Lodge. It appears that if they entered from the Passage from the Session’s court, they would have had to have gone underground at sections to get to the woman’s section.

Plan of Newgate
http://www.londonancestor.com/iln/newgate-plan.htm

And yes, I had read the link you gave me, which also had a link to an image just before the jail was demolished which shows the debitors entry. The other entry point at the front of the jail I am talking about is right to the image and would lead to the women’s section.

Image of Newgate prior to it being demolished
http://www.capitalpunishmentuk.org/newgat0.jpg
 

Shakesbear

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Hmmmm I'll have a rummage in a couple of books and see if I can find anything of use.
 

cooeedownunder

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Shakesbear you're a sweetheart.

Part of my issue is coming from older images of Newgate, where I had assumed that they had entered via a gate into a courtyard, which isn't possible.
 

Shakesbear

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Awwww

OK - I know where all the records of Newgate are -
http://www.aim25.ac.uk/cats/118/11453.htm London Metropolitan Archives. I think that it would mean a visit to the place - Cooee I do have a guest room if you want to zip over here!

Have you heard of or seen this:
The Gaol: The Story of Newgate - London's Most Notorious Prison (Hardcover)
by Kelly Grover ??? I've no idea if it is good, bad or rubbish but found it when looking for something else - always the way, isn't it?

Other than that I cannot find anything else that is relevant. The prison in mentioned in by Charles Dickens in Oliver Twist - Fagin in the condemned cell, also in Barnaby Rudge and Great Expectations. Thackeray's Henry Esmond also has references to it. Don't credit me with exceptional knowledge but the London Encyclopedia edited by Weinreb and Hibbert!
 

cooeedownunder

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Mmmmmmm When I got home and had a look here, I thought....ooooollllll. You did mean a guest room online from that link, or does you have me a ticket to England? LOL

I will pm you in the morning - and thank you.
 

cooeedownunder

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Have a look at www.victorianlondon.org/prisons/newgate.htm There are some details of newgate prison , I hope you find useful.

AH, I've exausted all those links a while back, although they gave me a great deal of information and ideas. There is some brilliant, well more than some brilliant, excellent reading on that site. Unfortunately most of it is quite a few years after my story is set, but thank you very, very much.
 
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stephenf

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I Can't find any reference to which door would of been used.However , I believe most of the women were imprisoned in New gate for debt, so the debtors door would be a logical,and maybe incorrect, guess.There is an old London saying,as black as New Gate knocker.Not just black but fearful.Because thats how you would feel as you watched the policeman banging on the door ,the Knocker was the one on the debtors door.However,they hung people outside the door as well.Best of luck
 
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Shakesbear

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IIRC women were kept in Newgate prior to being hung or transported. Probably for debt as well.

You did mean a guest room online from that link, or does you have me a ticket to England? LOL

Guest room in my house if you want and come to do the research... ticket to England ... if I win the lottery!
 

cooeedownunder

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Statisically, the higest portion of women transported to Australia were for theft. They were housed in the general woman's section while waiting trial, or the refractory if they were unmanagable, then the condems cells while waiting to be hung, which quite often was altered to transportation.

In hindsight it probably doesn't really matter which door - I was a bit concerned how to alter a scene I had inside of the jail, to outside the jail, then move my MC inside the jail, but I might just end the scene outside then start the next one inside.

Thanks for your help.
 

cooeedownunder

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And Shakesbear thanks for the offer of the guest room. It is damn annoying that it is so expensive to fly to London, but maybe I'll get an advance some day :D
 

cooeedownunder

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I just wanted to say

.... thanks guys again, because of your responses I have found some more interesting information about Newgate in this time period and in particular stephenf your post about the doorknocker thing found the online book below which does have some very pertinent information regarding women prisoners of this time, and a wealth of information beyond it. For anyone interested in Newgate it is an excellent resource.

It’s interesting that some articles take great pains to mention the debtors door for both debtors admission and it being the same exit for the condemned, and although I still can’t confirm it, it appears it may have been the entrance for all prisoners - a processing point.

I'll repost the link below incase someone should be looking for similar information later.

THE OLD BAILEY and NEWGATE

THIS BOOK IS ONE OF A COLLECTION MADE BY BENNO LOEWY 1854-1919
AND BEQUEATHED TO CORNELL UNIVERSITY

CHAPTER XX
Barrington, the Pickpocket— Riot in Newgate— Hangman wants
Increased Wages — Base Coin finished in Newgate — Inside
Newgate in 1815
— Governor Wall — Bellingham shot Mr.
Perceval ......234

CHAPTER XXI

Report of the Committee of 1814 on the State of Newgate

http://www.archive.org/stream/cu31924030386662/cu31924030386662_djvu.txt
 
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Shakesbear

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And Shakesbear thanks for the offer of the guest room. It is damn annoying that it is so expensive to fly to London, but maybe I'll get an advance some day :D


You are welcome - but hey! Don't you know how to row?