Damning evidence

The_Ink_Goddess · Jul 22, 2013

Hey guys,

Can someone help me out with a scenario?

So, basically, the MC of my story is in love with a serial killer and they start having a relationship. They meet because her dad is a cop investigating the death of his latest victim, but so far, Cop Dad can only find circumstantial evidence and dude's rich so he's got really good lawyers running all over the place.

Until Cop Dad finds - something. A certain thing which is utterly damning. MC's been keeping their relationship a secret but, when he shows her (she's only sixteen, but they're very close and he's shared things with her before despite how unprofessional it is....do you guys think ego - and the personal toll of having looked at a prime suspect who he "knows" did it but can't prove it for so long - is enough reason for this?) she instantly recognises how damning it is and reveals their relationship on the spot as blackmail material to manipulate him into hiding/getting rid of the evidence because she doesn't want her boyfriend to go to prison, and daddy's all about his ego, so he won't be able to stand the shame of making that public.

I want it to be
a) plausible that it wouldn't be discovered until a little way into the case - it's like a month after the girl died
b) visual/brutal - she's quite deluded so I think it would be interesting for her arc if she has to step up to destroy a piece of evidence that proves what a nasty piece of work her boyfriend is
c) pretty easy to hide - I liked the idea of a laptop with violent porn or proof that he'd been stalking the victim, but I assume that would have to be logged with other people? The MC's dad is a major character but he's not a POV character, so I want it to be possible that he wouldn't have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it disappear, so the reader can just be in her POV and think, okay, it's gone. Although I want it to reappear later in the story, so something that can be hidden rather than totally destroyed.
d) plausible that he'd have it at home - he's pretty obsessive and unprofessional, though...

Sorry, that's a lot of stuff. Can anyone help?

alleycat · Jul 22, 2013

I find the scenario a bit of a stretch. Would you be open to a suggestion or two on that part?

The_Ink_Goddess · Jul 22, 2013

Sure, which parts do you find unbelievable?

CWatts · Jul 22, 2013

I doubt a whole laptop is going to take that long to be found, but a USB thumb drive containing similar evidence could turn up later. That would be easier portable, concealable and have the serial killer's prints on it.

I don't know why the serial killer wouldn't just keep that on him, though. It could fall out of his pocket or something when the policeman is stalking him. If it's not official surveillance he might not log it, but bear in mind if he doesn't, it will likely be inadmissible in court anyway.

alleycat · Jul 22, 2013

Several points, but the main one is dad-cop being willing to hide evidence and let the guy walk, especially with his 16-year-old daughter at risk.

What if . . . the MC finds the evidence rather than dad showing it to her? What if she hides or destroys the evidence herself (maybe dad immediately finds out, or maybe he doesn't find out what she did until later in the story--whichever works better for the plot)?

Could she be 18 rather than 16? I'm not sure how she would meet the killer just because her dad is investigating the murder(s) unless there is some other plausible relationship in place (for example only, the rich guy could be a major donor to her school and sometimes visits with the students). If she was perhaps a little older it would make dating the suspect a bit more believable. Or did you mean the guy is around the MC's age and his dad is rich?

The_Ink_Goddess · Jul 22, 2013

alleycat said:
Several points, but the main one is dad-cop being willing to hide evidence and let the guy walk, especially with his 16-year-old daughter at risk.

What if . . . the MC finds the evidence rather than dad showing it to her? What if she hides or destroys the evidence herself (maybe dad immediately finds out, or maybe he doesn't find out what she did until later in the story--whichever works better for the plot)?

Could she be 18 rather than 16? I'm not sure how she would meet the killer just because her dad is investigating the murder(s) unless there is some other plausible relationship in place (for example only, the rich guy could be a major donor to her school and sometimes visits with the students). If she was perhaps a little older it would make dating the suspect a bit more believable. Or did you mean the guy is around the MC's age and his dad is rich?

Thanks!

- I've clearly overestimated something in the story with point #1, because I assumed the fact that a cop's daughter had been carrying on with the prime suspect would be enough to tank the case? Would it not? What I was thinking is that the MC 'persuades' him to destroy it (or so she thinks), but he actually hides it as a backup plan for when she's at risk. Although on both sides there's a creepy overinterest in their sex lives, so I don't think he'd want it to be made public, anyway. But that vs. letting the guy go - yeah, that's a good point. Maybe she does hide it and then he figures out she's got it?

- Ah, yes, the guy's family is very rich, he's 18. And he actually stalks the MC first because her dad has managed to basically mind-fuck him and he wants to hurt her back as revenge, as he's kind of impulsive and not very bright, hence the MC having to do a lot of ass-covering. Except she's pretty screwed up herself so it doesn't end up sticking, and they decide they're in 'love' instead. I don't think it's TERRIBLY implausible, as it's kind of justified in-story.

Cathy C · Jul 22, 2013

A lot of serial killers keep "trophies", momentos of those killed. Finding the stash--especially if the missing items from the victims were part of what had been kept from the press--would be very damning, and could easily lead to an arrest warrant, at least as a material witness (to start,) along with a search warrant of the location where the stash was found.

But I also worry about the heroine's age, unless the serial killer is also a teen. Cop fathers are notoriously suspicious of their kids' boyfriends.

I also don't think the MC would be believable in asking her father to ignore or hide it--ego or not. But I can see her destroying the stash herself, making her the next target (because serial killers can be very possessive of their trophies.)

alleycat · Jul 22, 2013

Then ignore my second point. When you said he was rich and had a bunch of lawyers working for him, I assumed he was an older man.

If I were the dad (and assuming I didn't just arrange an "accident" for the guy), then it would make me even more committed to putting the guy away. And I would want all the other cops and everyone else to be looking out for my daughter. The dad would have to be some piece of work to put his ego ahead of protecting his daughter. And, really, if there is a possibility of the daughter being killed by the man he is investigating that would be a lot more embarrassing.

The_Ink_Goddess · Jul 22, 2013

thanks! So I guess the main thing now is finding something that he could plausibly have at home where she can get to it? I'm struggling with that...

alleycat · Jul 22, 2013

It wouldn't have to be at home. Kids often come to their parent's office for one reason or another.

Cathy C · Jul 22, 2013

The_Ink_Goddess said:
thanks! So I guess the main thing now is finding something that he could plausibly have at home where she can get to it? I'm struggling with that...

See my suggestion above^^^ I think we cross-posted.

Buffysquirrel · Jul 22, 2013

I'm having trouble with the idea of the cop stalking the suspect yet failing to notice the suspect is dating his daughter.

Cathy C · Jul 22, 2013

Buffy, I was thinking more that the cop was stalking an unknown killer, rather than that particular person. Maybe I'm wrong, though. If the cop/father was actually stalking that particular person, then his daughter hiding that she's spending time with him will be difficult to pull off in the text. Cops are damned smart.

jclarkdawe · Jul 22, 2013

The_Ink_Goddess said:
Hey guys,

Can someone help me out with a scenario?

So, basically, the MC of my story is in love with a serial killer and they start having a relationship. You're going to have to craft your serial killer carefully. Some are able to do this, others are such social misfits it will never work. Remember that the longer the relationship goes on, the more cracks are likely to appear. That said, women can be very loyal and unable to accept evidence of how bad their boyfriends are. They meet because her dad is a cop investigating the death of his latest victim I doubt it. A cop isn't going to keep this type of investigation far, far away from his family. Serial killers are rarely investigated by individual officers, but instead by teams. It's hard to put together evidence with serial killers., but so far, Cop Dad can only find circumstantial evidence and dude's rich so he's got really good lawyers running all over the place. Putting together a case on a serial killer is hard enough in normal circumstances.

Until Cop Dad finds - something. A certain thing which is utterly damning. MC's been keeping their relationship a secret but, Someone who is being investigated as a serial killer is going to have a next to impossible time keeping a relationship a secret. Police are going to be watching fairly constantly. Resources in serial killing cases are as close as you can get to unlimited. when he shows her (she's only sixteen, but they're very close and he's shared things with her before despite how unprofessional it is....do you guys think ego - and the personal toll of having looked at a prime suspect who he "knows" did it but can't prove it for so long Which means he'd be even more careful about the chain of evidence. The reason for a lot of the procedures in investigating a case is so a defense attorney can't get it thrown out. He's got tons of lawyers. And Dad's going to risk the damning evidence being thrown out of court? I don't think so. And if the evidence is that damning, it's going to be the justification for an arrest warrant, and the news is going to be announced. - is enough reason for this?) she instantly recognises how damning it is and reveals their relationship on the spot as blackmail material to manipulate him into hiding/getting rid of the evidence because she doesn't want her boyfriend to go to prison, and daddy's all about his ego, so he won't be able to stand the shame of making that public. The better the evidence for the prosecution, the more questions the defense attorney has. I'm going to want the time stamps on when he found this, when he reported it by radio, mileage on his vehicle, everything I can think of. Chain of evidence is going to be critical here, as if I get this evidence tossed, my client walks. His daughter is the least of his problems here.

I want it to be
a) plausible that it wouldn't be discovered until a little way into the case - it's like a month after the girl died Serial killers tend to be slow to be arrested, because the evidence is so hard to piece together.
b) visual/brutal - she's quite deluded so I think it would be interesting for her arc if she has to step up to destroy a piece of evidence that proves what a nasty piece of work her boyfriend is Chopped finger mementos are the best.
c) pretty easy to hide - I liked the idea of a laptop with violent porn or proof that he'd been stalking the victim, but I assume that would have to be logged with other people? The MC's dad is a major character but he's not a POV character, so I want it to be possible that he wouldn't have to jump through a lot of hoops to make it disappear, so the reader can just be in her POV and think, okay, it's gone. Although I want it to reappear later in the story, so something that can be hidden rather than totally destroyed. Fingers go in the back of the freezer, and end up covered in frost.
d) plausible that he'd have it at home - he's pretty obsessive and unprofessional, though... Which he? The killer or the cop?

Sorry, that's a lot of stuff. Can anyone help?

You're going to have a lot of problems with making this plausible. Here's a couple of things to make this likely:

Have him a starting out serial killer. One murder and the cop thinks he's going to keep going.
Have the couple meet in some way that doesn't involve the father.
Frozen fingers are a good memento. Have her find it in the freezer and be undecided whether to show it to daddy the cop. (I'm assuming the girl is the protagonist.) Make the turning in a killer her problem.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

ironmikezero · Jul 22, 2013

I gather this is in the UK?

It wouldn't fly in the US. Serial murder cases typically are investigated by teams or ad hoc task forces - often multi-agency endeavors. Any time a relative or close associate of one of the investigators is identified as involved, that investigator is very likely to be relieved and reassigned to another case.

If your MC does anything to inhibit, frustrate, or obstruct the investigation she runs the risk of arrest and prosecution - perhaps as an accessory or even as a principal. Were that to come to pass, her only viable option may be to offer testimony against the killer in exchange for immunity or leniency - but that opens another can of worms.

The_Ink_Goddess · Jul 22, 2013

jclarkdawe said:
You're going to have a lot of problems with making this plausible. Here's a couple of things to make this likely:

Have him a starting out serial killer. One murder and the cop thinks he's going to keep going.

Have the couple meet in some way that doesn't involve the father.

Frozen fingers are a good memento. Have her find it in the freezer and be undecided whether to show it to daddy the cop. (I'm assuming the girl is the protagonist.) Make the turning in a killer her problem.

Best of luck,

Jim Clark-Dawe

- I didn't phrase that correctly - the only person who knows for sure that he's a serial killer is the main girl because he bragged to her about it. Everyone else is in the bracket you mentioned, they only know about one victim but they think he's going to keep going
- Yeah, don't worry, they only meet because serial killer dude can't keep his ego in check and thinks stalking her is a good idea. Her dad has nothing to do with it, and is duly appalled when he finds out.

Another thing I should probably mention is that the timeline is very compressed. When I say that they get together, I'm thinking they pretty much have two very intense encounters and then her dad finds out, not a six-month ritual of dates and whatever. I was quite wedded to the idea that she'd try to do something to impede the investigation in order to have him find out, but if it opens up such a can of worms, I guess I'll just have him find out because police surveillance spots her?

On another note, what happens then? Would he get kicked off the case? Suspended? Dear daughter has to refuse to end it for plot reasons, and because she's pretty crazy anyway so she's not exactly weeping over the other victims.

WeaselFire · Jul 22, 2013

Have him giver her a necklace that belonged to the first victim. Dad sees it and knows.

Of course, every dad I know would, when he found out his sixteen year old daughter was having a relationship with anyone, would put and end to it.

Make her 25 and away at grad school and the scenario gets a little believable. Dad sees the necklace when she brings him home and introduces him as the father of her unborn child.

Jeff

MarkEsq · Jul 22, 2013

The_Ink_Goddess said:
On another note, what happens then? Would he get kicked off the case? Suspended? Dear daughter has to refuse to end it for plot reasons, and because she's pretty crazy anyway so she's not exactly weeping over the other victims.

The cop would be taken off the case. He wouldn't be suspended because it doesn't seem, to me, like he himself has done anything wrong. But yeah, he'd be off the case.

Docaggie · Jul 22, 2013

I'm having a hard time with the believability of a girl, even a naive one, being willing to ignore that her beau is a killer. Thats something I'd associated with a codependent woman married to a man for decades.

The girls around when I was a teen would break up with a guy if he wore the wrong shoes or didn't call when he was supposed to.

Hendo · Jul 22, 2013

Cathy C said:
A lot of serial killers keep "trophies", momentos of those killed. Finding the stash--especially if the missing items from the victims were part of what had been kept from the press--would be very damning, and could easily lead to an arrest warrant, at least as a material witness (to start,) along with a search warrant of the location where the stash was found.

But I also worry about the heroine's age, unless the serial killer is also a teen. Cop fathers are notoriously suspicious of their kids' boyfriends.

I also don't think the MC would be believable in asking her father to ignore or hide it--ego or not. But I can see her destroying the stash herself, making her the next target (because serial killers can be very possessive of their trophies.)

I was a cop and this is what I was going to suggest. They like to keep trophies. Think of the show Dexter for example where he keeps blood slides of all his victims. It can be anything though. Maybe something related to who he targets. All married women? Wedding rings. Something like that.

But the cop father isn't going to tank a case just because it's his daughter's bf. He's going to want her out and away from him asap. If he's looking into him then he already have been trying to keep them apart. It's not like she's his accomplice (that would change things greatly though)

I also have no problem believing that she knew and ignored that he was a killer. Some people can do stupid things. It happens quite a bit actually. They feel the need to help and protect them.

NeuroFizz · Jul 22, 2013

Serial criminals are sometimes caught because no matter how careful they are about leaving evidence, they eventually mess up/make a mistake, or something goes wrong with their latest victim. So it doesn't have to be something discovered from an earlier crime. The perp could just get careless, or be forced out of his regular routine, for example, by some action of the girl(friend).

kaitie · Jul 22, 2013

I have a really hard time with the idea that the girl won't care he's a killer. I mean, I guess it's a bad boy thing, but honestly, it would be really tough to make me sympathize with her. I mean, even if she's somehow not concerned about her own safety, but the fact that she's going to let him continue murdering other people? That is just sleazy beyond reason. I could kind of buy into someone saying "hey I killed someone once on accident," and staying with the person, but to be bragged to about murdering people, and to know he's done it many times, and to not only ignore your own safety but all the other victims that will come?

I also have a tough time with the idea of the father letting this go as far as it does. I can't imagine a dad hiding evidence once he found out. He'd give the evidence in a heartbeat so the guy could be put away and his daughter would be safe. But I also think at 16 that the dad would have more power than that. He should anyway. I guess he could just be a crappy dad. But to know your daughter is dating a serial killer suspect and not do something drastic about it?

Even if she steals the evidence herself, if I was dad I'd arrest her, send her to jail for the theft until she gave up where it was and then arrest him. I mean, arrested and scared witless is a hell of a lot better than murdered by boyfriend.

Karen Junker · Jul 22, 2013

I had a friend who met a man in prison and married him, even after finding out he was a multiple murderer. There are women who marry convicted murderers ALL THE TIME. It's not so hard to believe a 16-y.o. would be able to convince herself it's okay to date someone, even if he had done something bad -- because a lot of young women think it will never happen to *them*. There's also that odd belief some people have that they can rehabilitate the bad boy.

kaitie · Jul 22, 2013

It's not so much that I don't think it happens. It's more that I would have a hard time sympathizing with a character with such poor judgment. Particularly when that judgment is putting other people at risk.

Karen Junker · Jul 22, 2013

Yes, I have to confess, I did distance myself from that friend really quickly after she told me about the man she married. But people just love Dexter and he's not a very sympathetic character, right? (I dont' know, I don't watch the show).

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