Israel's refusers

Robbert said:

Compulsory military service!?! I cannot comment on the situation in America. But in Israel it's easier than ever before.

My son refused to do his duty in 2010. My daughter last year. I'm fucking proud of them!

All it takes is a psychologist's diagnosis--end of army.

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There's something about that that reminds me of Alice's Restaurant. I guess I'll have to listen to the whole thing again, and it's not even Thanksgiving yet.

Don said:

This.

Forcing someone else to risk their life and/or kill other people for a cause they do not believe is a just cause strikes me as even more evil than the garden-variety, forced-labor version of slavery.

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Maybe we could run future possible recruits through the Milgram experiment* and those who obey most strongly get high-pressure sales pitches by recruiters. "You're our kinda guy/gal, and you can have a really good career in the military! Just sign here:"


* Unfortunately, the Milgram Experiment seems to be very strongly out of favor due to things called morals and ethics.

It's kind of tasteless in a thread about Israel too. IMO.

But conscription is okay...

I said the opposite, actually.

But yeah, I do find it tasteless to suggest that the IDF should employ tactics once used as attempt at excusing Nazi atrocities. YMMV.

raburrell said:

I said the opposite, actually.

But yeah, I do find it tasteless to suggest that the IDF should employ tactics once used as attempt at excusing Nazi atrocities. YMMV.

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And, I find it tasteless to excuse the bad behavior of a nation (forced conscription) because of the bad (okay, horrific) treatment their people previously received.
If it walks like a duck...

Michael Wolfe said:

Wait, who was excusing it on that basis?

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Excusing was probably the wrong word, but if you can't figure out what I was talking about, I can't help or there may be a case where I am perceived to not be RYFWing. Thanks for understanding.

Michael Wolfe said:

Seems like a cop out. But I suppose it's a relief to see that such a statement can't be defended.

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Okay, here goes, if you're going to double dog dare me:

One member chastised another member for suggesting that the Israeli's might as well use a method that the Nazis used. I felt like the chastisement was unfair as (to me) it seemed too forgiving of the very bad behavior and methods of the Israeli government. As if the bad treatment that some of their citizens received justified the immoral actions their government carried out later (i.e. conscription = slavery with bullets on point in this thread, but one could also mention the Palestinian Apartied, etc.)

Diana Hignutt said:

And, I find it tasteless to excuse the bad behavior of a nation (forced conscription) because of the bad (okay, horrific) treatment their people previously received.
If it walks like a duck...

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Leaving aside whatever you seem to think I said, I think you're assigning a motive to Israel's service requirement that's simply false. Most Israeli men and women serve by choice, and requiring all to serve was a way to recognize that Israel's citizens share a responsibility to defend their country, without it being a burden the wealthy and powerful could slip out of. That said, I don't think anyone who has a legitimate objection should be forced to serve.

Michael Wolfe said:

The last line here is what I have trouble with. No one said anything like that.

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In my opinion it is the subtext of what was said. I'm out.

First off, I’m sorry for the derail # 18. My bad!

Next, some clarifications:

1. Sending a letter to the Prime Minister—as in the OP’s link and video—amounts to nothing. Over the years, the number of outright Refuseniks has seen a steady increase. But still, their number is insignificant (119 in 2013). In the past (say, 1948-2000) it was almost unheard of while sentences were much more severe than at present.

2. Dodging the draft with the help of a psychologist: the diagnosis of a psychologist of your choice is then presented to a psychologist working on behalf of the IDF. The latter’s verdict is final and cannot be appealed. Both of my children went through this process.

3. If one is labelled as psychologically unstable, the authorities recommend to do civil service instead. My son did, my daughter never bothered. The law is inconsistent on this issue.

4. Dodging the draft on religious grounds: I wasn’t speaking of the ultra-orthodox Jews since they’re exempt from being drafted. I was speaking of the tendency to enroll one’s (secular) offspring in a rabbinical school or something similar, and dodge the draft on false pretences.

Michael Wolfe said:

True, although just this year Israel passed a new law attempting to get more ultra-orthodox Jews to serve in the IDF. Fairly controversial, it seems.

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Yes, I’m aware of the new law. The article is spot on in that tensions between the secular and the ultra-orthodox Jews are running high—but they always have. More than anything else, the introduction of this law is a political issue. Integrating and converting the ultra-orthodox into professional combatants sounds like a ludicrous idea.

cornflake said:

What? Other armies do what, knit shawls?

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No, they don’t.

On paper, any army draws its justification from defending its people. And now, Cornflake, practically speaking, which other country but Israel...

* has a higher percentage of its population enlisted in the army?
* has a higher military budget in terms of its GDP?
* has equally long reserve duties?
* has fought and won (!) more wars?
* has compulsory conscription for females?
* has drawn more prime ministers from the ranks of the military?

Israeli life is soo deeply interwoven with army life in general, that I can't think of any other country which comes anywhere near it. Yeah, the Dallas Mavericks play basketball and so do the kids in my backyard…

As for your remaining comments: (saboteurs) Michael Wolfe explained it all in post #25, THANK YOU!; (nukes) if you want to dive into this subject, please send me a PM

Robbert said:

No, they don’t.

On paper, any army draws its justification from defending its people. And now, Cornflake, practically speaking, which other country but Israel...

* has a higher percentage of its population enlisted in the army?
* has a higher military budget in terms of its GDP?
* has equally long reserve duties?
* has fought and won (!) more wars?
* has compulsory conscription for females?
* has drawn more prime ministers from the ranks of the military?

Israeli life is soo deeply interwoven with army life in general, that I can't think of any other country which comes anywhere near it. Yeah, the Dallas Mavericks play basketball and so do the kids in my backyard…

As for your remaining comments: (saboteurs) Michael Wolfe explained it all in post #25, THANK YOU!; (nukes) if you want to dive into this subject, please send me a PM

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Well...

*looks at map*

They're sort of surrounded by everyone who wants to wipe Israel off the map.

It'd be suicide *not* to have a strong military, hmm?

Michael Wolfe said:

The last line here is what I have trouble with. No one said anything like that.

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Honestly, I haven't seen anything that I could interpret in that way either.

Sheryl Nantus said:

Well...

*looks at map*

They're sort of surrounded by everyone who wants to wipe Israel off the map.

It'd be suicide *not* to have a strong military, hmm?

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I agree with Sheryl. Suicide is the mildest thing I could think if they didn't have a strong military. I mean come on, imagine every nation in Eroupe ganging up on Switzerland and the Swiss not having a strong army to defend them.* Not having a decent army in such a position would be almost tantamount to asking to be wiped out. Conscription, of course it's bad but I'm sure they think it logical in order to defend the country both from within and without.

And I trust that nobody will make any more slavery references, hmmm? Slaves generally get treated very poorly by their masters, and by most recent conventions are slaves their entire lives. You want to use the oldfashioned/ancient definition go ahead, but it isn't the only one.

*I have no clue as to the current state of the Swiss military.

Lillith1991 said:

And I trust that nobody will make any more slavery references, hmmm? Slaves generally get treated very poorly by their masters, and by most recent conventions are slaves their entire lives. You want to use the oldfashioned/ancient definition go ahead, but it isn't the only one.

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For those killed on the battlefield, permanently disabled, or who develop PTSD, conscription is also a lifetime sentence, death may be the penalty for desertion, and it's my understanding the UCMJ is harsher than civilian law. There's no false equivalency there at all.

OTOH, slaves weren't generally forced into kill or be killed situations, although in ancient times some slaves were sent into the arena to slake the bloodlust of the masses. Of course, there wasn't tv back then, so the events weren't televised on the evening news.

Don said:

For those killed on the battlefield, permanently disabled, or who develop PTSD, conscription is also a lifetime sentence, death may be the penalty for desertion, and it's my understanding the UCMJ is harsher than civilian law. There's no false equivalency there at all.

OTOH, slaves weren't generally forced into kill or be killed situations, although in ancient times some slaves were sent into the arena to slake the bloodlust of the masses. Of course, there wasn't tv back then, so the events weren't televised on the evening news.

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And there's one thing people are forgeting. A slave cannot refuse their master for ANY reason. There are no outs if you're a slave. None. Exactly zero. Well, that's not true. There's running away or buying your freedom, so I will ammend things to there being two options for slaves. But of those options one is extremely dangerous, and the other the master has the right to refuse if that's what they want to do.

Lillith1991 said:

And there's one thing people are forgeting. A slave cannot refuse their master for ANY reason. There are no outs if you're a slave. None. Exactly zero. Well, that's not true. There's running away or buying your freedom, so I will ammend things to there being two options for slaves. But of those options one is extremely dangerous, and the other the master has the right to refuse if that's what they want to do.

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Try walking out on a conscription sentence and see how that works out. That's a contract you can't even buy your way out of. Not since the civil war, at least.

Don said:

Try walking out on a conscription sentence and see how that works out. That's a contract you can't even buy your way out of. Not since the civil war, at least.

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There's obviously people who are able to refuse in Israel, though the restrictions on refusing are too strict. I'm sorry, but if it was true slavery not even Hassidic Jews would be able to refuse, and neither would those with mental imparement and or illness. In short, with slavery no-one is unsuitable. When we're talking war/military, every able bodied person would be forced to fight without regard to mental state and or religion. That's what slavery is, no choice in what you do, and no ability to refuse.

And before you bring up such things as PTSD again, I have it. I know exactly what it entails, and how disabling it can be. Who gets it is completely random and we don't fully understand yet how it develops, other than it being linked to extreme trauma. Unless you want to imply every conscripted soldier will get it, or that even most of them will. Go right ahead in that case.