Submission Advice from the Editor

Poor Arkady. All she's trying to do is to be helpful, and she gets knocked on the head for efforts. I know, I know; she should've been a little more soothing in her response. But you have to admit, she has some valid points.

Maybe we ought to reserve our ire for that knuckleheaded post I made upthread.

So true, Nomad. And might I add that you're incredibly helpful. Don't be surprised if you find yourself singled out in the Appreciation Thread.

I'm constantly puzzled by the hate-on for Natalie Goldberg. As far as I can tell, most of it comes from expecting her books to be something they're not.

They're not get-published help. They're not get-publishable help. They're not even finish-a-manuscript help.

What they're written to do is help someone find their personal voice. The focus is on accepting what comes out of your head without subjecting it to the Editor Within. They're meant to help free the reader up if the reader is paralyzed by the need to be perfect from the get-go: "It's OK to write the worst crap in the world." "Keep the pen moving." They're also meant to help get the reader noticing the world around him/her with an artist's eye: "Get closer." "Banana, not fruit; douglas fir, not tree." "I am looking at..."

I'm guessing that any writer at the stage of A) calling him/herself a professional, and B) looking for advice in the submission/marketing stage of the game... is not necessarily going to have a lot of use for Natalie Goldberg. These writers are already writing. They've found their voice. They are approaching publishable.

That doesn't make Natalie Goldberg worthless. It just means these writers aren't her target audience anymore.

I find a lot of use in returning to her books and exercises when I'm stuck thinking "I want to write something new today but ideas are not forthcoming." I went to a week-long workshop with her it Taos that was absolutely phenomenal--I hadn't been pushed that hard in a long time. It's amazing what's hiding underneath the "I have nothing else to say" resistance. Admittedly, she's not for everyone, and she's definitely not for every stage of the game, especially not the "Ask the Editor" stage, but she's far from the universally useless New Ager (or, more accurate, Jewish Zen Buddhist) that y'all make her out to be.

(I'm guessing AWers who appreciate her are more likely to hang out in the Writing Prompts and Exercises forum.)

Silver King said:

Poor Arkady. All she's trying to do is to be helpful, and she gets knocked on the head for efforts. I know, I know; she should've been a little more soothing in her response. But you have to admit, she has some valid points.

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Knocked on the head? Nah. Didn't mean it that way. Just meant we need (and that includes me) to keep it cool while imparting facts/advice/whatever.

If you're reading this Arkady - peace.

And, Silver King, you're not a knucklehead for asking questions like you did. Until I read the How Publishing Works thread, I felt the same way - why the heck do I need an agent? It pays to do your research before you jump into something.

~Nancy

Nomad, You are my favorite part of the Absolute Write forum, thanks for offering your sage advice!

Nomad said:

Arkady, play nice, please.

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Hey! Arkady. While I appreciate your "gentle" reminders, I am aware of that. On a web board, however, I tend to be a little less strict in how I write. I've been around long enough to know that perfect writing all the time tends to turn people off. So for non-professional writing, i write less strict. When i am writing for publication, or something else that requires proper usage of grammar, punctuation, etc. I do tend to follow the rules. Apologies if I offended.

Tami, I know it seems like a total Catch-22, but it's really not. There are lots of publishers that accept non-agented manuscripts and queries, and even many of the big NY houses will take a look if your pitch is solid and intriguing and the manuscript is worth reviewing. Have you had your work published in the past (in magazines, newspapers, etc.?) If so, you know how to query and pitch properly. It sounds more like you don't know publishers in your market particularly well. Do you have a copy of Writer's Market (which isn't always accurate, but can be a good starting point)? What I would recommend is buying or borrowing a copy of that book, marking off some good possible candidates, then going to each publisher's web site to check submission guidelines. You'll find dozens of legitimate, excellent presses who take unsolicited, unagented manuscripts. Start from the top and go down: pitch and submit to the publishers you really, really want to work with, then move down your list if they don't accept your work. Don't settle.
Does that help at all? Good luck!

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Thank you Nomad. In truth I know how to research the genre and the publishers that my manuscript would fit. Unfortunately I am not that good at writing a stellar query. That I believe may be my biggest failing in getting my work reviewed by those publishers that do accept queries from unpublished writers. I do not own a copy of the Writer's market, and I can never find a copy that isn't four years out of date.

And I don't plan on settling. Settling is for those who do not wish to make anything out of their writing career. And quite frankly I believe that is why vanity publishers are making it so big. However, your words are quite encouraging. I don't believe the book I need to find, since I already have several publishers in mind, is the Writer's Market, but a book that will help me write an awesome query letter.

I took a correspondence course in writing six yers ago, and they query letters that it teaches you how to write, are less than stellar. Any suggestions on where I could look?

Tami_Elder said:

I've been around long enough to know that perfect writing all the time tends to turn people off.

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Tami, why would you use less discipline when writing among your peers? Believe me, perfect writing turns people ON in a big way. For many of us, the opposite is true of sloppy writing, especially when the author knows better.

Silver King said:

Tami, why would you use less discipline when writing among your peers? Believe me, perfect writing turns people ON in a big way. For many of us, the opposite is true of sloppy writing, especially when the author knows better.

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In truth my less strict writing really isn't sloppy. And I have never been involved in a web forum where the people were as critical of writing as people are here. Now I'm not saying that being critical is a bad thing; I'm just going on the experience I have. Now I will admit that on one of the other forums that I frequent, I do interact with authors. I am pleased to say that I can have more intelligent discussions with them, and I don't feel like I'm among a group of elitists.

I honestly prefer to speak like a human once in a while rather than like a typewriter all the time. It reminds me that I am human and fallable, so if y'all will bear with me, ye'll see tha' I'm a bit on the non-conformist side. But hey! If y'all demand that I tpye like a perfectionist all the time, then I will. Though I have to say I likely won't be frequenting the boards here a lot.

No one's being critical of your writing, Tami. And the elitist element doesn't exist here, either. I was trying to point out that, when a person knows how things should be said, well, it doesn't hurt to say it in (close to) proper form. It helps with the reading of posts and makes things more fluid, not to mention easier to understand.

For example, you wouldn't paint a three inch mole on the end of your nose to make yourself look less attractive, right? I believe the same goes for deliberate misuse of language for the purpose of making things sound less pleasing. It simply draws too much attention to itself when it doesn't need to be there.

I hope you're not serious about not frequenting the boards. You'll love this place. And besides, I was one of the first members to welcome you here. I'd hate to be the one who helped turn you away.

Sew cum on, Tam, tell me it ain't sew...

Silver King said:

No one's being critical of your writing, Tami. And the elitist element doesn't exist here, either. I was trying to point out that, when a person knows how things should be said, well, it doesn't hurt to say it in (close to) proper form. It helps with the reading of posts and makes things more fluid, not to mention easier to understand.

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Ok. Point taken, and I do apologize for being harsh in my response. The staement you made, just kind of rubbed me wrong. Comes from dealing with people that have no cannot accept me for what I am. And I'm afraid that after my narrowly avoided debacle with Publish America, I'm a bit defensive.

For example, you wouldn't paint a three inch mole on the end of your nose to make yourself look less attractive, right? I believe the same goes for deliberate misuse of language for the purpose of making things sound less pleasing. It simply draws too much attention to itself when it doesn't need to be there.

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You have a point, but I don't deliberately try to make my words "sound less pleasing". I simply relax a bit more on a web forum. I am normally a stickler for correct usage of words. It's just that on a web based forum, I prefer to give people a glimpse into my personality, rather than breathing down their necks about correct usages. Admittedly, this is the first forum on writing that I've participated in, so a lot of the practices I normally use, likely will not apply here. However, until I get my bearings, I'll likely be slipping in and out of different aspects of my own personality. Until I find a comfortable mode of behavior to use here. And while many will try to give ideas of how I should be have. I prefer to figure it out for myself. There are past issues that cause me to be this way, and I will try to be less confrontational in the future. I just hope you all have some patience.

I hope you're not serious about not frequenting the boards. You'll love this place. And besides, I was one of the first members to welcome you here. I'd hate to be the one who helped turn you away.

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Well, if I don't feel welcome, I won't frequent a place. However, I am not quite sold on not feeling comfortable here. And if I leave, I highly doubt it would be your fault, sir. I just have very set beliefs and ideals.

Sew cum on, Tam, tell me it ain't sew...

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Har...Har...

Travel book from the 1980s

Dear Nomad, thanks for taking the time to answer our questions. I have been writing up my diary from my travels around the world between 1987-91. The first travel is around Europe and the middle-East over a year, and is distinctive by its detail while hitch-hiking and working seasonally on fruit picking and construction; I think it also has a social and anthropological value as it describes the life of worker-travellers who worked and partied hard. Do you think there is a market for the book?

Tami_Elder said:

For nearly all publishing houses anymore, you have to either have an agent or be previously published before they'll even look at your writing. Now, while Agent's may serve a puprose, i am not comfortable with someone else gaining money off of my years of hard work and effort.

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It's just wrong to think of agents making money off your hard work. Agents make money off their hard work, and a good agent will make you far more money than you could ever earn by yourself.

I think this is a common mistake new writers tend to make. Good agents do not cost a writer a penny. A good agent is worth her 15% because she will earn it, and considerably more.

To put it another way, would you rather have 100% of $1,000, or 85% of $10,000? This is the choice you're making when you decide you don't want an agent. The 85% you receive by using a good agent will, over time, be many, many, many times as much as the 100% you receive without an agent.

If you really want to be paid as much for your hard work as you could be or should be, you need an agent.

Look at it this way, if an agent didn;t make a writer many times more than the writer can make without an agent, why would pro writers keep an agent once they were well-published? At this point in his career, Stephen King, or any other famous writer, can approach any publisher they wish, and sell that publisher a book, and wouldn't need an agent to do so. So why do these writers still have an agent?

The answer is simple. A good agent never costs a good writer a penny. A good agent wlays makes a good writer many, many times more money than the writer can ever make without one.

Too many writers think all an agent does is pass a manuscript along to a publisher, and take a cut of the sale. This is a small part of an agent's job. The real work, and the real profit, and the real opportunites an agent provides a writer comes after the agent finds a publisher for your book.

Beieve me, if you really want to profit from all your hard work and efoort, an agent isn't just a good idea, and agent is absolutely essential. Without one, you just are not going to make very much money in this business.

Hi Nomad,

Yes, thanks a lot for your advice, it was very helpful. I was afraid you were going to tell me that, but the book will have some of the interest you mentioned, so there's still hope. It has more interest for a UK audience I think, as I and most of the people involved were from the UK; do you know any UK agents or publishers that might be my best bet? I've seen a few that publish these kind of books, but was wondering if you'd recommend anybody in particular?

Thanks again, Marc.

Now, while Agent's may serve a puprose, i am not comfortable with someone else gaining money off of my years of hard work and effort.

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Don't think of it so much as someone else gaining money off of my years of hard work and effort but as someone with years of hard work, effort and experience of their own, in an industry that you have none in, and want to break into.

They can bring all of that knowlege and experience to selling your manuscript to the right people, negotiating on your behalf and generally advising you about a whole lot of things you know nothing about. They do this - if you choose a legitimate one - without charging any fees, which means they incur risks any time they take on a new writer. They may end up doing a lot of work on your behalf and making nothing at all out of you!

If they do get you published though, negotiate a good deal and work on your behalf as a published author, surely 15% is a good deal in order to have that?

To add on what Fergie wrote, my agent is currently trying to sell my MS to publishing houses around the world. I already got an amazing deal because of them with a house in the UK, and the other day I just found out an Italian publisher wants my book as well. I would have had no idea how to do what they are doing, to me it is utterly incredible that they are able to sell my work as a complete newcomer to foreign countries! It's totally worth the 15%. No question.

Congrats, Toothpaste!

A good agent will not only find a publisher for your book, but possibly sell film rights, etc. etc. I know of one writer here who has an agent that is shopping his book(s) to a TV network for a potential miniseries. I don't know of too many writers who could get a network interested or negotiate such a deal for themselves even if they did manage to get them interested.

As James A. said, 85% of ten grand is a whole lot more than 100% of one grand.

With that said, you need an agent that is going to earn their 15% by getting you that bigger contract, by finding someone interested in the foreign rights and film rights and so on.

I'm a writer not a marketer. I would love to have an agent to market my work, because it would leave me free to do what I do best.

Elitist? Flippin' heck! I'd better cancel my membership.