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Terraforming the Earth

Maxx

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Global environmental homeostasis. What a useful expenditure of resources. I certainly hope there is enough money left to bring back the dodo
 

Maxx

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Global environmental homeostasis. What a useful expenditure of resources. I certainly hope there is enough money left to bring back the dodo

I doubt we are in any danger of homeostasis and nobody seems to have much of an idea of what the terraforming would really do.
 

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The terraforming that we did several thousand years ago seemed to work pretty well for a few thousand years. If we clear out the excess people, then we may try again. Are there any particular features that you want?
 
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Maxx

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The terraforming that we dii several thousand years ago seemed to work pretty well for a few thousand years. If we clear out the excess people, then we may try again. Are there any particular features that you want?

It wasn't my idea. And there seems to be some question about whether it is a good plan in general.
 

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It wasn't my idea. And there seems to be some question about whether it is a good plan in general.

I wasn't suggesting that it was your idea, and I agree that it is uncertain whether it was a good idea at all, but it looked very, very good for a while. The next time I think that we should put a better limitter on human population. A billion of them was fine; Two billion was tolerable; but seven billion is a little excessive. What do you think? Should we just let it go back to nature?
 

Maxx

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I wasn't suggesting that it was your idea, and I agree that it is uncertain whether it was a good idea at all, but it looked very, very good for a while. The next time I think that we should put a better limitter on human population. A billion of them was fine; Two billion was tolerable; but seven billion is a little excessive. What do you think? Should we just let it go back to nature?

There's a commodities futures guy (I'll look this up and stick it in the thread later) who says, from the point of view of having a profitable commodities futures market, 1.5 billion people is about all the planet can handle. Beyond that you get what has happened since 1850. And the future of commodities futures is apparently not looking so good here in 2011.
 

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How can you terraform the earth?
ter·ra·formverb /ˈterəˌfôrm/
terraformed, past participle; terraformed, past tense; terraforming, present participle; terraforms, 3rd person singular present
(esp. in science fiction) Transform (a planet) so as to resemble the earth, esp. so that it can support human life
/pedant
 

Maxx

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How can you terraform the earth?

/pedant

I think the idea in this case is that with an increasing greenhouse effect, you might want to do something to counter-act that effect, ie you would take the Earth in state A and terraform it into Earth in state B. Or if the non-greenhouse Earth is A, and Greenhouse earth is B, you would see a series:

Terraform A to B (greenhousing)
Terraform B to C (greenhousing and geo-engineering)

And hopefully C would eventually return to something like A hence the use of the term "terraforming" with A as the standard Earth.
 

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I think the idea in this case is that with an increasing greenhouse effect, you might want to do something to counter-act that effect, ie you would take the Earth in state A and terraform it into Earth in state B. Or if the non-greenhouse Earth is A, and Greenhouse earth is B, you would see a series:

Terraform A to B (greenhousing)
Terraform B to C (greenhousing and geo-engineering)

And hopefully C would eventually return to something like A hence the use of the term "terraforming" with A as the standard Earth.
I know what you mean, I just think 'terraform' is the wrong word. "Transform (a planet) so as to resemble the earth". The earth will always resemble the earth because....it *is* the earth...
 

Maxx

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I know what you mean, I just think 'terraform' is the wrong word. "Transform (a planet) so as to resemble the earth". The earth will always resemble the earth because....it *is* the earth...

The term used generally is "geo-engineering", but in Sci-fi terms the activities would be called terraforming on any planet other than the Earth.
 

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There's a commodities futures guy (I'll look this up and stick it in the thread later) who says, from the point of view of having a profitable commodities futures market, 1.5 billion people is about all the planet can handle. Beyond that you get what has happened since 1850. And the future of commodities futures is apparently not looking so good here in 2011.

I don't know why he would have said that. The agricultural commodities are still an excellent investment. If he meant something about the quanty produced per unit of energy input, then he might be right, because it has become progressively more difficult to get a good harvest.
 

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I think the idea in this case is that with an increasing greenhouse effect, you might want to do something to counter-act that effect, ie you would take the Earth in state A and terraform it into Earth in state B. Or if the non-greenhouse Earth is A, and Greenhouse earth is B, you would see a series:

Terraform A to B (greenhousing)
Terraform B to C (greenhousing and geo-engineering)

And hopefully C would eventually return to something like A hence the use of the term "terraforming" with A as the standard Earth.

Have you seen the observations that the sunspot cycle appears to be shutting down? The last time that happened the Earth had the Little Ice Age.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-slow-sun-simmers-down.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/17/opinion/17baker.html
http://theweek.com/article/index/216359/are-we-facing-a-mini-ice-age
 

Maxx

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Have you seen the observations that the sunspot cycle appears to be shutting down? The last time that happened the Earth had the Little Ice Age.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencet...-slow-sun-simmers-down.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/17/opinion/17baker.html
http://theweek.com/article/index/216359/are-we-facing-a-mini-ice-age

Let's hope it works this time. The only problem is the Maunder minimum happened about a century after the start of the little Ice Age, so if the timing holds, we should have had a little Ice Age for about a century already. And our little minimum won't start til 2019 even if for some reason it works differently and instantly.

Anyway. I'm hoping the sun does cool off a bit. That would be swell. And it would have to cool off more than it did at the beginning of the little Ice Age since it seems to have had nothing to do with the beginning of the little ice ace.
 

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Let's hope it works this time. The only problem is the Maunder minimum happened about a century after the start of the little Ice Age, so if the timing holds, we should have had a little Ice Age for about a century already. And our little minimum won't start til 2019 even if for some reason it works differently and instantly.

Anyway. I'm hoping the sun does cool off a bit. That would be swell. And it would have to cool off more than it did at the beginning of the little Ice Age since it seems to have had nothing to do with the beginning of the little ice ace.

Unfortunately, the dates for both the Maunder Minimum and the Little Ice Age are imprecise. The Maunder Minimum (1645 to 1710) seems to have arrived near the middle of a cyclic low in worldwide temperatures.

If all goes well, then temperatures will again rise to the point where oats will ripen in Greenland without the need for greenhouses.
 

Maxx

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Unfortunately, the dates for both the Maunder Minimum and the Little Ice Age are imprecise. The Maunder Minimum (1645 to 1710) seems to have arrived near the middle of a cyclic low in worldwide temperatures.

If all goes well, then temperatures will again rise to the point where oats will ripen in Greenland without the need for greenhouses.

You mean if the Sun would cool off just enough, then maybe you could get oats and a stable ice cap on Greenland? Tricky. Might need some geo-engineering to
hit a target like that. But not a bad plan, right?
 

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There's really nothing at all out of whack with the earth as it now is. Other than brainless hype over nothing. The earth can easily feed twelve billion people, all of which you could fit in the state of Texas, and greenhouse warming is silliness.

It was much hotter than it is now not all that long ago, and there was a time when there were no ice caps to melt. What we need to do is stop thinking of the environment as good or bad for people, and leave the earth alone. It will get a heck of a lot hotter than it is now, and it will get one heck of a lot colder.

There will be another ice age, and it's starting to look like it isn't all that far off.

Rising sea level are not bad for the earth, they're just bad for people who built cities on the coast, somehow expecting sea levels would never rise, or even drastically recede.

For that matter, an ice age isn't bag for the earth, either. Neither Is rising temperatures. Both are normal, and have always occurred. They will occur again. The fact that people suffer from both does not mean we should try to stop either, or that either is in any way unnatural.

Unnatural is trying to terraform a perfectly healthy planet to make it better for US.
 

Maxx

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There's really nothing at all out of whack with the earth as it now is.

The Earth is fine and the UN has imposed a moratorium on any geo-engineering, as the article points out.

As you and the UN and the editorializing in the Guardian all agree, any geo-engineering is one of those things men should not do for as we heard in the Before Time on some Star Trek episode or other (some imperative or other).

But, I don't know. Why not do some geo-engineering and get those oats back on Greenland?
 

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You mean if the Sun would cool off just enough, then maybe you could get oats and a stable ice cap on Greenland? Tricky. Might need some geo-engineering to
hit a target like that. But not a bad plan, right?

No, I am hoping for the Earth to warm up a little more, so that it would be back at the level it was during the Mediaval Warm Period. When the oats start ripening, then we wil know that the Earth is back to its proper temperature.
 

Maxx

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No, I am hoping for the Earth to warm up a little more, so that it would be back at the level it was during the Mediaval Warm Period. When the oats start ripening, then we wil know that the Earth is back to its proper temperature.


Sounds like any day now, Greenland will be back to normal for 4-5 years of prime oat-growing. Then you can move on to wheat, soybeans and grapes.

http://www.co2science.org/articles/V13/N16/C2.php
 

Snick

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Sounds like any day now, Greenland will be back to normal for 4-5 years of prime oat-growing. Then you can move on to wheat, soybeans and grapes.

http://www.co2science.org/articles/V13/N16/C2.php

That article confirms that Greenland is not yet as warm as it was in the past.

We will see. If there is a sunspot lapse, then there probably will be more cooling that will start soon. Whether there will be time for a harvest of oats is not yet known.

Links regarding sunspot hiatus
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2011/06/17/are-we-headed-for-a-new-ice-age/
http://losangeles.ibtimes.com/articles/162919/20110614/solar-flare-ice-age-global-warming-sun.htm
 
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