How on earth do you say no...?

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wampuscat

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Sexual harassment and racial discrimination are very real problems in the work place. Let's not run around screaming wolf unless there's really a wolf, 'kay?

This. I can't believe anyone would even suggest doing something like this.

Glad you got it worked out, kaitie. If someone called my boss telling her to give me days off, I would probably chew that person out. Talk about overstepping a boundary.
 

LindaJeanne

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Someone who's not respecting your boundaries needs to be told in no uncertain terms where those boundaries are (stop pushing for more than you offered, and calling the boss was WAY over the line.)

If they still don't respect boundaries, they need to encounter a solid wall.
 
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Sexual harassment and racial discrimination are very real problems in the work place. Let's not run around screaming wolf unless there's really a wolf, 'kay?

Perhaps not. But the crack about going to the boss raises red flags all by itself.

I would recommend to my wife go to HR and discuss creating a hostile work environment at the least.

The guy's a slimeball, time to put an end to it.
 

Putputt

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If "no" doesn't work, use political correctness. It works for everyone else.

Tell him you're feeling sexually harassed, or relate his comments to some racial bias.

It's amazing people are more afraid of modern buzzwords than if you came at them with a chainsaw.

Doooooood, wut. I can't even. WHAT. You are suggesting...yeah, no. This is probably the worst advice I have ever come across.

Perhaps not. But the crack about going to the boss raises red flags all by itself.

I would recommend to my wife go to HR and discuss creating a hostile work environment at the least.

The guy's a slimeball, time to put an end to it.

There's a really thick, really clear line between saying no in a healthy way, which the OP has done, and creating a lie which could potentially ruin someone's whole LIFE to get out of a sticky situation.
 
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Doing something like this and involving the person's boss is creating a hostile work environment. Ask your HR director just how serious that is.

If the guy went to my boss, I would bypass the HR and go to my attorney. This is predicated on the fact that numerous previous responses were ignored.

In my state, two cases of unwanted contacts are enough to file charges for stalking.

Edit: It is also a surprise to many lawbreakers that ignorance of the law is no excuse. The judge usually reminds the defendant of that right before sentencing.
 
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Little Ming

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Doing something like this and involving the person's boss is creating a hostile work environment. Ask your HR director just how serious that is.

If the guy went to my boss, I would bypass the HR and go to my attorney. This is predicated on the fact that numerous previous responses were ignored.

In my state, two cases of unwanted contacts are enough to file charges for stalking.

Which is completely different from sexual harassment and racial discrimination.

No one disagrees that what this guy did was crossing the line. But it was a very specific line, and not one that should be confused with other lines.
 

wampuscat

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Doing something like this and involving the person's boss is creating a hostile work environment. Ask your HR director just how serious that is.

If the guy went to my boss, I would bypass the HR and go to my attorney. This is predicated on the fact that numerous previous responses were ignored.

In my state, two cases of unwanted contacts are enough to file charges for stalking.

Edit: It is also a surprise to many lawbreakers that ignorance of the law is no excuse. The judge usually reminds the defendant of that right be sentencing.

Even if this is harassment, which the OP has not said, regardless of what we might infer, harassment is still very different from alleging sexual harassment or racial/gender discrimination.

No one said it might not be serious. Some of us just said that using "political correctness" as an excuse or calling something sexual harassment or prejudice when it's not is morally wrong to some of us.

ETA: Sorry for the derail, OP.
 

jjdebenedictis

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Doing something like this and involving the person's boss is creating a hostile work environment. Ask your HR director just how serious that is.

If the guy went to my boss, I would bypass the HR and go to my attorney. This is predicated on the fact that numerous previous responses were ignored.

In my state, two cases of unwanted contacts are enough to file charges for stalking.

Edit: It is also a surprise to many lawbreakers that ignorance of the law is no excuse. The judge usually reminds the defendant of that right before sentencing.
Are you concern-trolling? You did read the part where Kaitie said she considers this guy a friend as well as a colleague, didn't you?
 

Putputt

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Which is completely different from sexual harassment and racial discrimination.

No one disagrees that what this guy did was crossing the line. But it was a very specific line, and not one that should be confused with other lines.

This.

Going to HR/an attorney = / = going to them crying wolf, which is what you're suggesting Kaitie does. There would be an investigation at the whiff of sexual harrassment or racial discrimination, and I can't see it ending well for both parties. Someone would be out of a job or even behind bars.

Yeah, great advice.
 
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Anyone can sue anyone else for any purpose at any time. That's what the courts are for. If the suit itself was designed to harass (and this is not the case in this scenario) you can be held accountable for abuse of process.

I'd go for the money. Sue the guy for intentional infliction.
 

Little Ming

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Anyone can sue anyone else for any purpose at any time. That's what the courts are for. If the suit itself was designed to harass (and this is not the case in this scenario) you can be held accountable for abuse of process.

I'd go for the money. Sue the guy for intentional infliction.

Are you giving legal advice?
 

Cranky1

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I hope the OP has it all sorted. I still wonder why the OP would be expected to pay. It seems less about having them there, and more about reaching a monetary goal.
 

Amadan

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If "no" doesn't work, use political correctness. It works for everyone else.

Tell him you're feeling sexually harassed, or relate his comments to some racial bias.

It's amazing people are more afraid of modern buzzwords than if you came at them with a chainsaw.

If that was meant satirically, it's not very good satire.


Kaitie: Saying "No" is a valuable skill. "No" is its own justification. "No, I'm not going to do that. No, I don't have to explain, justify, or convince you. No." Practice it. It gets easier the more you do it.
 

Little Ming

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Technically I cannot.

Technically, you can. Legally, you cannot.

You know that.

I do, but you don't seem to.

But I did work amid lawyers for 30 years.

And some of the people replying in this thread, including some of the ones disagreeing with you, are lawyers.

Go see one.

No, don't.

Usually the first visit is free.

It's still a waste of time.

Win or lose, it would put a person's mind at ease.

No, it won't.

Disclaimer: This is not legal advice, just common sense.
 

Polenth

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And McCardey, you're so right. I've gotten a lot better, honestly. I used to never say no and it was often to my detriment, but I've finally learned how to. My boyfriend thinks I still need to work on saying no to more things, but at least I can do it now. This is just such a weird situation for me because I don't like conflict and I've never had this much pressure before.

The thing I've found about being the mean person who says no... though some might initially cry or pout, they don't end up hating me. And that's because the majority of them know exactly what they're doing. It's not because they're new or stressed. It's because they're testing boundaries (and the crying/pouting is usually part of that test, to see if guilting or shaming someone will change the answer). So don't give anyone a pass on the basis that they don't understand what they're doing, because it's so very rare for that to be the case.

In this case, by agreeing to a day initially when you didn't want to do any, it showed it's possible to get your boundaries to change by hassling. I'd lay odds that the next time he runs an event, he'll try the exact same thing, because it worked this time. It might seem nicer to compromise or sugarcoat at the start, but if you're not firm then, it means it'll blow up into a much bigger conflict.

(It's a lot like telling children they can't have sweets. A child who never gets sweets when he screams is unlikely to scream. A child used to getting his way when he screams is going to scream for longer when someone says no, because he expects it to work if he keeps going long enough.)
 

Mr Flibble

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Originally Posted by Shamus Fignasty
If "no" doesn't work, use political correctness. It works for everyone else.

Tell him you're feeling sexually harassed, or relate his comments to some racial bias.
Gee, yeah, totally demean those things by calling this (which while distressing is not quote the same) them, and oh by the way add fuel to the 'There is no real sexual/racial harassment they're all making it up, look at this case where someone made it up, proves my point' crowd.

Katie doesn't need to make stuff up because this guy is already being a douche enough. Just because it isn't sexual/racial doesn't mean it should not be treated seriously. Harassment is still harassment.

Making up spurious charges that make a mockery of other, actual cases makes baby Odin smack a few heads together, so that maybe they'll think clearly next time*.

Anyone can sue anyone else for any purpose at any time.
And in most places, anyone can lose a lot of money bringing a spurious case to court. Not to mention losing any credibility and/or end up having to pay damages


*Baby Odin does not cry. Baby Odin kicks arse.
 

bearilou

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If that was meant satirically, it's not very good satire.


Kaitie: Saying "No" is a valuable skill. "No" is its own justification. "No, I'm not going to do that. No, I don't have to explain, justify, or convince you. No." Practice it. It gets easier the more you do it.

There's not enough 'Like' for what Amadan said.

Far too often people will resort to emotional manipulation and guilt to negotiate soft versions of no into yes. "Sorry, but I don't have time. Sorry but it's not good for me. I'm sorry, but I told you..."

They will attempt to use any reasonable explanation and soft-shoe you provide as to why you cannot meet their requests and use it as a point to negotiate around it until you feel you can no longer say no reasonably and that you are not a good person for refusing to do their 'very reasonable request' by 'being so selfish'.

No. No explanation. Just, no. It can still be delivered kindly and it can still stand firm.

The thing I've found about being the mean person who says no... though some might initially cry or pout, they don't end up hating me. And that's because the majority of them know exactly what they're doing. It's not because they're new or stressed. It's because they're testing boundaries (and the crying/pouting is usually part of that test, to see if guilting or shaming someone will change the answer). So don't give anyone a pass on the basis that they don't understand what they're doing, because it's so very rare for that to be the case.

ninja'd by polenth who said it better than I did.
 
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thothguard51

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Things like this is why I separate my professional relationships from personal friendships...
 

kaitie

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I hope the OP has it all sorted. I still wonder why the OP would be expected to pay. It seems less about having them there, and more about reaching a monetary goal.

It's not. There's just a fee to attend to cover costs. I know him well enough to know he's not trying to just get money out of me.

And for what it's worth, I wouldn't call this harassment. It was a situation that was frustrating and I needed advice and got it. It sure as hell isn't the kind of thing that's worth suing someone, particularly someone I consider a friend, over.

In fact, suggestions like that are one of the reasons that the courts are so tied up in frivolous lawsuits.

Seriously, the situation isn't that serious. Awkward, yes? A little excessive? Definitely. But one that requires legal intervention? Not really in the same league as far as I can tell.
 

ironmikezero

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With tongue firmly in cheek - and in the raspy voice of Vito Corleone... (with the appropriate deference to Mario Puzo)...

...Ahem... So, this person... is annoying you?

How is it... that you have not come to me before now?

Did I not stand... as godfather to your child? Are we not blood?

It would be my pleasure... to make this problem go away... No, no... you need not thank me - it is an honor to perform this service in your behalf... as a favor...

Of course, sometime... perhaps in the future... I may have occasion to call upon you... for a favor or a service in return... Capisce?

...Go, be with your family... Concern yourself no more with this... pest...

<fade to black>


*Mr. F, see what your title inspired in a wandering mind... ;-)
 

Samsonet

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With tongue firmly in cheek - and in the raspy voice of Vito Corleone... (with the appropriate deference to Mario Puzo)...

...Ahem... So, this person... is annoying you?

How is it... that you have not come to me before now?

Did I not stand... as godfather to your child? Are we not blood?

It would be my pleasure... to make this problem go away... No, no... you need not thank me - it is an honor to perform this service in your behalf... as a favor...

Of course, sometime... perhaps in the future... I may have occasion to call upon you... for a favor or a service in return... Capisce?

...Go, be with your family... Concern yourself no more with this... pest...

<fade to black>


*Mr. F, see what your title inspired in a wandering mind... ;-)

hahaha, I like this very much.
 
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Seriously, the situation isn't that serious. Awkward, yes? A little excessive? Definitely. But one that requires legal intervention? Not really in the same league as far as I can tell.

I think the thing that might be throwing us off is that it bothered you enough to write.

As for the courts, if you're honestly being harassed then that's what they're for. If the situation is just awkward then you find other remedies.

I must admit, the information about dragging your boss into the fray did concern me. If that's not outright harassment than it's the most bizarre behavior I've heard of. Trying to coerce an answer by causing you problems on the job is no laughing matter.

The final word is that if you think courts/lawsuits/mediation are all overkill, then you have to reassess just how serious or trivial the matter truly is. If the guys just a mouthy jerk you've already answered addressed his request.

If you're fearful of your fate, safety or job, then it's time to ask for help from outside sources. After reading the remarks, I'm not sure anymore that this is a serious matter. Bizarre, perhaps troubling, but to you it's minor. Maybe talking it out was the answer.

Edit: One thing I must add is how my problem solving antenna go up on issues like this. I've learned that when my wife says she has a problem it means just to shut up and listen, not to try and find solutions, which is very frustrating. She dumps her problem on me, kisses my forehead now cleansed, but gives me the ulcer!

Second, I hate bullies. I've had a few incidents in dealing the stalkers of several girls my wife and I know. These guys really, really rile me up.

Last, I don't like lingering problems. If something is an issue I like to deal with it and move on. The wool gathering and ruminating drive me nuts. So I hope you find a solution you can live with and return to a happier existence. BTW, I now ask my wife to preface her speech with defining her needs as looking for a sounding board or a solution on the front end.
 
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Amadan

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I think the thing that might be throwing us off is that it bothered you enough to write.

As for the courts, if you're honestly being harassed then that's what they're for. If the situation is just awkward then you find other remedies.

I must admit, the information about dragging your boss into the fray did concern me. If that's not outright harassment than it's the most bizarre behavior I've heard of. Trying to coerce an answer by causing you problems on the job is no laughing matter.

The final word is that if you think courts/lawsuits/mediation are all overkill, then you have to reassess just how serious or trivial the matter truly is. If the guys just a mouthy jerk you've already answered addressed his request.

If you're fearful of your fate, safety or job, then it's time to ask for help from outside sources. After reading the remarks, I'm not sure anymore that this is a serious matter. Bizarre, perhaps troubling, but to you it's minor. Maybe talking it out was the answer.

Edit: One thing I must add is how my problem solving antenna go up on issues like this. I've learned that when my wife says she has a problem it means just to shut up and listen, not to try and find solutions, which is very frustrating. She dumps her problem on me, kisses my forehead now cleansed, but gives me the ulcer!

Second, I hate bullies. I've had a few incidents in dealing the stalkers of several girls my wife and I know. These guys really, really rile me up.

Last, I don't like lingering problems. If something is an issue I like to deal with it and move on. The wool gathering and ruminating drive me nuts. So I hope you find a solution you can live with and return to a happier existence. BTW, I now ask my wife to preface her speech with defining her needs as looking for a sounding board or a solution on the front end.



Are you really unable to conceive of a problem that falls somewhere between the poles of "Not really a problem, ignore it" and "Get the courts involved"?
 
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