The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

The price

We ALL pay a price. We struggle, we deal with rejection.

The vast majority of first novels don't get published. They stay stashed in drawers, a learning experience for the writers.

So instead of staying in the writer's drawer, they stay in PA's drawers. PA writers do get the rights back to their books, I know it takes 7 years, but they will get it back. And in the meantime they, like the rest of us can continue to write, improve their writing. And get back out there like the vast majority who don't make it on the first pass.

Their wounds may be deep, but not any deeper than those who fail on the first attempt. The only difference is that PA'ers have and outlet for their disappointment. Without PA, chances are they would have suffered disappointment that goes just as deep - without the luxury of having someone to blame.

Re: The price

Three things about PA:

1) Perhaps a couple hundred of those books PA has published could have been traditionally published.

2) The authors who are running around setting up signings and all the rest of that nonsense aren't doing what they should be doing: Writing their next books and working on their craft.

3) There are worse things that could happen to a writer than remaining unpublished.

Re: The Price

Simon I think we will need to agree to disagree on part of the PA situation. I agree the great unpublished novels in many a drawer probably do need to languish there, and a second one started as the writing craft is practiced and refined. The shame is not in PA publishing half-baked books, it is in those same books and writers never getting a golden crust on them. The loaves of creativity don't quite rise to the top of the PA pan on too many of their releases.

Someone who might have written work worth publishing has settled for fool's gold and either learns and goes on or is disillusioned and gives up. Those are the ones I feel for, the *might have beens* whose ideals are squandered for immediate gratification. I know we do not see eye to eye on this part, but in real life I have to deal with the discarded shards of people's dreams too often not to feel empathy for them. I believe in people taking responsibility for their own actions, but which is worse: the scammer or the scammee?

scammees

I do agree with Jim that there are worse things than not being published.

But I do not think that being published by PA ranks up there with some of the other disappointments and disillusionments that can beset human beings.

I don't know what kind of wounded souls you are dealing with in the real world, Last, but I do know that the wounded souls in my life who I love are dealing with disappointments and disillusionments that make the scars of being scammed by PA seem like paper cuts.

Being abused, being discarded, being unloved, being raped, having your five year old child die in your arms. These are true deep wounds. And though it may sound insensitive to some, publishing with PA is small potatoes compared to these type of wounds.

As Jim said on another thread, you should be writing for yourself, for creative fulfillment, and that in itself should be what moves, inspires and fulfills you. The completion of the artistic expression should be the reward, publication the gravy. You should NOT be writing solely with the dream of being in Borders. If that is your motivation, if that is how you define your success and achievements as an artist, then your goals are empty and you are not a true artist.

If you are writing for personal fulfillment, then you have already received an amount of success and fullment by writing that being published by PA cannot take away from you. If not being in Borders is all that matters to you, then you karmically do not deserve to be in Borders to begin with.

There is real cruelty, real tragedy and real victims all around us. I wonder how many of you give anywhere near the time or energy to the truly wounded in this world, as you do to the PA victims on this board.

Re: scammees

I wonder how many of you give anywhere near the time or energy to the truly wounded in this world, as you do to the PA victims on this board.

I'm a volunteer EMT in my community.

Re: PA doesn't care

SimonSays wrote "There is real cruelty, real tragedy and real victims all around us. I wonder how many of you give anywhere near the time or energy to the truly wounded in this world, as you do to the PA victims on this board."

Probably more of us then you might believe Simon - empathy for the walking wounded tends to spill over from the real to the virtual world. Your concern for others certainly shows in what you post here.

BTW I agree wholeheartedly about writing for the joy of it, in fact I *itch* on days that I don't write. Fortunately, seeing my writing on display at Borders has never been the immediate goal, only an aspiration for sometime in the future when I can call myself an author and not merely a writer in training.

The Reason

The reason that you see the anger directed at PublishAmerica, while you don't see it directed at Xlibris, iUniverse, 1stBooks/AuthorHouse, and the rest of the vanity PODs is this:

Their bookstore placements are just as bad. Their editing is equally non-existent, their covers are as poorly done. Their sales are just as low. But they didn't lie to the writers on the way in the door, telling them "This is it, this is real traditional publishing."

With Xlibris and the others, everyone knows, without question, that they're vanities. Pay to play. PA is the one that lies. That's where the sense of betrayal comes from.

EMT

James D wrote "I'm a volunteer EMT in my community"

*grin* Not only are you one of my favorite authors, a generous person to new writers, and very entertaining, but also you help people at a time they need it most. James please don't tell me anymore, I'm already suffering from serious hero worship of you.

Re: perspecitve

Simon,
Everyone feels things differently. Just as some let nothing get to them, no matter what it is. They would probably not be concerned with 9/11 or anything else. They might feel but not as some might think right. Some feel everything strongly, their pain and others pain. That they would be calling for war, and payback. They would cry over a stranger who was hurt, or a olympic player who won.
It doesn't make either wrong, and not all are sitting, and doing nothing but complaining. Most have moved on with their writing, and looking to the future. At the same time going after PA and working to get their rights back.
Yes, there is a lot of tragedy out there, no matter how any feel none can stop it. Just help whenever possible. We are all touched by what we see, hear, experience, and feel every day. We can all try to make the world a little better. But if you let it all tear you up inside, you would have a nervous breakdown or worse.
But we all have our own personal battles to fight. Venting sometimes helps, knowing you aren't the only one. To each his own way of feeling things.

A bit of a dilemma

*stands up*
I am a PA "author". I now live in the real world.
*sits*

According to my contract, it will take seven years to get back the rights I signed over to PA.
Three years later, I have expanded the world I created in my PA book-I'll call it Red Dawn-and created a four book series. In essence, Red Dawn is now to me a prequel/side story to the new series. Something akin how The Hobbit is related to the Lord of the Rings trilogy.
I have sold the four books as a series to a Real publisher. I have discussed including Red Dawn as part of the complete series-I have plans for an additional same world trilogy-but I'm worried PA would reissue the original/old/bad version and corrupt the series' potential.
Even if I wait the other three and a half years for the contract to run out, could PA-I know they certainly would given the idealistic PR potential-still publish the first book to capitalize? I suppose I could hope the series did become hot and in trying to keep up with the orders, they cancelled my contract because of "poor sales"-but would the rights revert back to me early if they did do that? :money
The advice I'm getting from the editor is wait and see how the first one they publish does, which of course is sound and prudent and putting the horse before the cart of my paranoid worries. :clap
I guess I'm looking for an answer to the best?/worst case scenerio. I need to use references and characters from Red Dawn to make the mythos work properly. It seems I spent more time weaving the grand scheme-I even have maps-than researching publishers. :smack
Should I just abandon doing anything or having to do with Red Dawn ever again? :shrug

Andrea eace

The Real World

I agree that being published by PA isn't as bad as the tragedies mentioned in previous posts. The key is to get on to the next project. Sheesh, I mean if Stephen King had been mistreated when he wrote Carrie and decided to quit writing....

However, the people I have the most empathy for are those who wrote nonfiction books about a child or parent who died...or about a traumatic period in their lives. These writers only had one book in them - and PA got it. It is heartbreaking to them. I feel for them.

As far as what we do for others....I work with low-income elderly and disabled people. I also run a volunteer group for the homebound.

If you want some really sad stories, I could tell you things about people who have been absolutely deserted by their family and friends because of their age or health issues. What a way to spend the end of your life, huh? Recently, my group had to come up with enough money to bury a man whose family didn't want to spend a penny for his burial - even though they had money. Nice, huh?

Are these things worse than PA? Yep. But the PA experience can still be extremely painful for some people.

My advice? If you have more books in you - get on with life. Don't do anything to promote your book if you feel it isn't up to par. If this is your only book - wait for your rights back. Again, don't promote it. When you get your rights back, do what I'm doing. Release it with someone else - who isn't PA! This may put a little waiting time into your schedule, but all is not lost.

Nancy
www.nancymehlbooks.com

Perspective

Simon said, "sorry I just don't think PA's evil is quite to that standard."

Well, you are right there. No argument here, but, read this scenario.

You pay a plumber to come in and fix your toilet, you step out to run to the store and pick up a few things and when you return your everything in your house is gone. TV, phone, fridge, carpet, kitchen sink, etc. Now, even though this fake plumber isn't as bad as Osama don't you still feel really pissed off? Wouldn't you do anything to get your stuff back? Wouldn't you warn people about this fake plumber?

The fake plumber is PA, and we are the stupid people that let him in. We feel betrayed, pissed, and are doing what we can to rectify the situation. If we can't afford an attorney then we will just put our stories on the net for the world to see.

That's the way I see it.

Kevin Yarbrough

Re: Perspective

I don't think that we should give a free pass to every mugger in the country on the grounds that they don't come up to the standard of Osama bin Laden.

James stated it well, but this also applies

Likewise, don't compare us to organizations that specialize in greater needs or dangers. You don't expect the local dogcatcher to organize the pursuit after an overseas terrorist. Same goes for some of us. We specialize in literary muggers.

Re: A bit of a dilemma

Snarzler,
I have a sequel to the book PA has. I did ask for permission to use parts of the one they had in my new novel. NO reply from them of course. Advice that was given to me? Was to write it like it was not connected to the first. Don't use any excerpts from the first novel. I use vague references to the charactors past that was revealed in the first novel. But other than that it is all new. If I get my first back I will redo it and then get it published elsewhere, with a connection to the others.

Re: James stated it well, but this also applies

Another thing I've learned from doing ambulance work:

To me and the other EMTs, the problem that we're called for may be no big deal; seen it a hundred times before. But to the patient, it's a real big deal, they're having the worst day of their life, and the world is falling apart.

We treat them with compassion and professionalism. We don't laugh and point at them, and mock their distress, or tell them that it's all their fault.

I remember one call, where the complaint was "Baby won't eat her peas." Now I've raised four kids, and my first reaction might have been "Did you try her on carrots?" There was nothing physically wrong with the baby -- she just wasn't hungry. But for that first-time mother, alone in a strange town, it was a crisis. She called 9-1-1.

We took her concerns seriously, talked calmly, and helped get everything straightened out, without making her feel like a fool for calling for help.

Was this a big problem? No, not really. Not compared with a heart attack, or running a car into a bridge abutment. But for that young mother it was a big problem, and what she needed at that moment wasn't "tough love."

There's proportionality in all things.

Re: A bit of a dilemma

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Advice that was given to me? Was to write it like it was not connected to the first. Don't use any excerpts from the first novel.<hr></blockquote>
LaVerne, you own the copyright for your work. You don't need permission from a publisher to use your own work. It's much the same if you use a song or poem someone else wrote; you get permission from the author, not the publisher. They only own printing rights.

No dilemma

Well spoken, Lynn! You stated just what I was about to reply when I spotted your answer.

The World's A Better Place.

James said: "But for that first-time mother, alone in a strange town, it was a crisis. She called 9-1-1."

James, what a wonderful act of kindness. The key to every situation is to NOT make a person feel like a second class citizen. I applaud you :clap .

If I may add to LeVerne's statement. We're all human and react differently to each problem that enters our daily lives. Many of us post on this and other forums to get positive feedback, to give advice, to vent or just to say a friendly "hello."

Keep in mind, it's healthy to disagree. That's a part of individuality.

Sometimes, PA just happens to be the soup of the day...and that's OK. Perhaps, it will save someone from getting caught in the same trap :head ...or perhaps not :shrug . However, it's certainly worth a try.

venting

There is nothing wrong with venting, there is nothing wrong with being angry or expressing that anger. It's great that there are people who will point out the lies of PA.

My goal here was to put things in some sort of perspective because the anger you feel toward the plumber that ripped you off is not anywhere near the anger you feel toward the drunk driver who killed your daughter.

Again, it's perspective. Degrees of being victimized, of being wronged. Degrees of harm suffered. If you truly write for the love of writing - then the harm you suffered needs to be looked at through the prism of what your real goal was and what you achieved. And even in Nancy's example - people who write about personal tragedy and loss, do it primarily as therapy for themselves, a way of dealing, a way of healing. So again, even for them, they have already achieved the true gifts of their actions, just by getting it down on paper.

The sense of loss and anger one feels should be proportional to the actual damage suffered. And people who perceive the damage done by PA as being life or death, would do themselves a world of good if they sat back, and asked themselves exactly what motivated them to write to begin with and what was really taken away from them by being published by PA. Creative fulfillment? Sense of achievement? Pride in accomplishment? If the answer to any of these questions is yes, then maybe they need to look inside themselves at their own self esteem and values.

:b

Re: A bit of a dilemma

How much can you use from a former work? Now on a message board I had asked about that, seeing as how it was important to the story to use parts from the previous novel. Yet I was told not to do so, because I needed permission. Just to write it as though it weren't a sequel. So they were wrong? That is good to know. Got some rewriting to do.

Re: A bit of a dilemma

If I understand correctly, you're writing a book that could be described as a derivative work of your own book.

Getting permission from the author/copyright holder to write that derivative work shouldn't be particularly difficult to get, since it's you.

If you're using chunks of actual text from the other novel, things might be stickier. What exactly does PA's contract say about excerpts?

Actually

Most of the PA authors with whom I have communicated who wrote about personal tragedy and loss, did so with the idea in mind "If what I suffered can help others who are similarly suffering, then it was not for nothing." Or else they write thinking, "If I can help others NOT to go through what I went through, then it wasn't for nothing." It is in the completion of the process that they find therapy.

By selling to PA, they get the burst of feeling -- it wasn't for nothing, people will read this and be helped -- only to find out...no, sorry. We're just going to print a few of these to sell to YOU...if you want anyone to read them, you better go find someone. Now you not only suffered tragedy but now you realize someone wants to stick it to you AGAIN.

Now, if they had gone through normal publishing routes, they would probably have learned that their book wouldn't sell...it just wouldn't. Few books of that sort do...some, but not many. And the some that do are exceptional. Eventually, the writer might think -- okay, I really want to get the word out and I cannot do it through traditional publishing so I'll go with Author House (or whatever.) Then it becomes that person's CHOICE...again, the person does not feel doubly victimized. They CHOOSE to go vanity and they do so prepared (at least slightly) for what they get. They have different expectations and come out of the experience with a different feeling.

So, yeah, I think it's an exceptionally crappy thing to do to those who are already battered enough.

gran

Re: A bit of a dilemma

James,
The sequel continues the story of the first book. The only thing I have used is the charactors, with hints to the past. Was wondering how much could be used to explain certain things in the second book to readers who didn't read the first. I can't be sure but I think the contact says you can't use excerpts without permission of publisher, like it does in the books front page. I had wanted to use a bit (several pages condensed) that explained the past at the beginning of the sequel. I could even simply use flashbacks.

Re: A bit of a dilemma

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>How much can you use from a former work?Just to write it as though it weren't a sequel.<hr></blockquote>

How much can you use? I would say that from a writing standpoint, one wouldn't want to use too much simply because it becomes re-inventing the wheel. Re-stating what has already been written gets tedious. But a certain amount of backtracking is necessary with sequels. No one can tell you what to write with regards to a sequel. It's your work.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>Now on a message board I had asked about that, seeing as how it was important to the story to use parts from the previous novel. Yet I was told not to do so, because I needed permission.<hr></blockquote>

That is wrong. You don't need permission. You own the copyright. I have no idea about your contract, but I've never seen any references to limiting use of one's own work.

<blockquote><strong><em>Quote:</em></strong><hr>but I think the contact says you can't use excerpts without permission of publisher, like it does in the books front page<hr></blockquote>
That pertains to others using the material, not the author. Again, you own the copyright. No one else may use excerpts of your book without permission.