Catholic boy denied confirmation over political facebook picture

mccardey said:

I think you're underestimating the level of acculturalisation that comes from being born and raised into a church and having your identity to a large extent shaped by it. By twenty-five, thirty, perhaps, you'd have enough of a sense of yourself to be able to stand up and say "Now, wait - I know for the first fifteen years, you told me <insert sin here> was evil, but I'm beginning to see it differently. And I don't think that makes me a lesser person." But indoctrination can be hard to shake off, and in the case, for instance, of a child who knows herself to be gay and is taught that homosexuality is evil - and whose family are probably also deeply entrenched in the dogmas - well, I think it's a difficult ask. I think the first defense should be found in the culture that she was born into. Her time for creating or finding a new culture will be some years away.

Click to expand...

No, not at all. I completely understand it. But my point remains, it is more reasonable to ask someone to leave a club built on certain tenants than it is to ask the club to change their founding philosophies.

Obviously it's difficult and won't happen in most instances (which is why I think children should be raised outside of he church and introduced when they're old enough to decide whether or not to be involved, but that's another argument for another day.) But you must understand the issue with simply changing dogma every time a societal shift occurs? It's a religion, not a political party.

And I for one wouldn't want to make those years any harder for her. I'd like to take every chance I could to strengthen her bonds and faith in herself and in the love of the people around her. I'd feel that was my first duty, as a priest or a teacher or parent.

Click to expand...

A teacher or parent, maybe. But surely a priest has more of a duty to uphold the tenants of his religion than he does to make individuals feel all warm and fuzzy about going against them?

I think the solution would be to find some priest who recognises that people are people, and prone to error, and, as a result, doesn't check out his flock on Facebook, much as he doesn't spend Saturday nights patrolling the local joints looking for erring parishioners.

missesdash said:

No, not at all. I completely understand it. But my point remains, it is more reasonable to ask someone to leave a club built on certain tenants than it is to ask the club to change their founding philosophies.

Click to expand...

I agree, but at the same time, if enough members of a club are unhappy with how it's being run, they can decide to try to change things.

The Catholic Church can certainly hold onto the belief in their hierarchy, but without the Catholic laity, there isn't much of a church. There are certainly Catholics who trust strongly in the Pope and the bishops, but more and more, I think a lot of Catholics feel distanced from Rome and don't feel a lot of need to agree with the Church in all things.

I think for some believers, it's not really like belonging to a club. It can be about identity, in which case just leaving doesn't make as much sense as trying to make a place for yourself in the organization and make the organization reflect your values.

For me, it was fairly easy to leave the church. But I knew even before I was confirmed that I didn't actually believe in it (hence my regret about having my confirmation).

mccardey said:

I don't know what the Proddies do, but I also don't understand your statement here. Obviously only god (according to the teachings) can condemn a person to hell - should such a place exist. But the teachings as espoused by this priest seem to be that certain behaviours will force god to make that condemnation. So - yeah - only god can do it. But (according to this priest) if you're gay, he will. So you can't be confirmed.

I think I'd be happier if god spoke for himself, quite frankly. To each kid. Privately.

Click to expand...

I'd be a bit worried about that, it seems God causes enough trouble with the few people He does talk to:
http://www.alternet.org/pat-robertson-admits-he-blew-election-prediction-he-got-god

DancingMaenid said:

but more and more, I think a lot of Catholics feel distanced from Rome and don't feel a lot of need to agree with the Church in all things.

Click to expand...

And the all or nothing doctrine doesn't sit well with people of faith AND modern sensibilities. I'd say greater than half of the Catholics I was confirmed with actively use birth control, had pre marital sex, and/or are homosexual.

And these are the children of long time parishoners, some of whom have children of their own enrolled in the parish school.

missesdash said:

So alternately, make a new club.

Click to expand...

mccardey said:

I'm not sure I can see any benefits though...

Click to expand...

It worked out pretty well for Martin Luther, I suppose...

missesdash said:

A teacher or parent, maybe. But surely a priest has more of a duty to uphold the tenants of his religion than he does to make individuals feel all warm and fuzzy about going against them?

Click to expand...

I'm not convinced that those are the only options. I do take your point about leaving the religion being an easier option for the religion - I just don't think it's always that easy a decision for the person in question.

But religions - thank heavens - do change. A little. Slowly.

Such a stance, while completely deplorable, should not impact the Church's 501(c)(3) tax exempt status, any more than refusing to marry a same sex couple ought to. They're not campaigning for a candidate. They're not campaigning at all in this case.

The Bishop who ordered the anti-gay-marriage letter read to all the congregations is closer to the 501(c)(3) line but even that, I don't think, crosses it.

Speaking out against the Death Penalty, against Abortion, against Gay Marriage and for Entitlement programs is not enough to endanger their 501(c)(3) status. Speaking out for or against Romney or Obama would be. A voter's guide would be.

And as an aside, even if a church loses it's 501(c)(3) status, that doesn't mean it loses it's tax exempt status. There are lots of other areas in the 501(c) area of the tax code that would exempt the church from paying taxes. What losing 501(c)(3) would do is prevent parishioners from deducting their donations on their taxes. People lose sight of this fact in all the bro-ha-ha around this issue.

It seems to me that the IRS doesn't actually enforce this stance. Tons of churches on both sides of the political spectrum more or less endorse candidates, and they never get tax exemption threatened that I see.

Personally, I'd love to see all tax exemption stripped from most religious organizations, but I don't think that'll happen.

Mara said:

It seems to me that the IRS doesn't actually enforce this stance. Tons of churches on both sides of the political spectrum more or less endorse candidates, and they never get tax exemption threatened that I see.

Click to expand...

It's not that they don't enforce it. It's that they are not aware of it. If you see anything like this, call the IRS. They will tell you what to do.

This type of thing is exactly why my family left the church. It isn't really as simple as finding another priest, as there is a concentrated effort to silence any clergy who support GLBT issues. The clergy have been told they are not allowed to speak out in favor of gay rights. There was one priest who wrote letters to our local newspapers about how he felt the church shouldn't be focusing on things like the anti-gay marriage ammendment. (I am in Minnesota, where this kid is from) My mom always said if we went back to church, we would go to his church. But she's kept tabs on him, and they've already moved him out of the twin cities, and into a small parish in the middle of nowhere after what he said.

I've only read the OP, so forgive me if this has been noted before. If, as I suppose it is the case, this boy is a baptized Catholic. If, this boy has availed himself the sacrament of Confession or as it is currently referred to, Reconciliation, AND is thus 'in a state of grace' then the priest cannot under Canon Law deny a recommendation for Confirmation.
If this boy lives in the diocese of the cardinal archbishop he can and should appeal to the cardinal. If his bishop is not a cardinal, the boy may and should, first appeal to the bishop, and if that doesn't work, then he should appeal to the cardinal.

Also, no priest can ban anyone from a sacrament that is administered by a bishop. It's simply above a priest's pay grade. In addition, if this priest knows the boy is baptized, reconciled, and has received the eucharist, then this priest would be guilty of defying the express will of Jesus. But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me Matthew 19-14

Doesn't confirmation happen in 8th grade? Why is this happening for him at 17?

Gretad08 said:

Doesn't confirmation happen in 8th grade? Why is this happening for him at 17?

Click to expand...

At my old church, you had to be 10th grade or older to be confirmed. Most people did it at 15. I'm not sure if that's something that depends on the diocese or not.

In any case, I don't think there's a time limit on it. I don't think it's something where if you don't do it in the 8th grade or 10th grade, you can't do it at all. I'm pretty sure adults who join Catholicism are confirmed, as well, though I think they usually go through a different process.

I seriously considered putting off my Confirmation for a year or two because I wasn't sure it was the right thing to do. As far as I could tell, that was a perfectly valid option. As it turned out, my mom convinced me to go ahead with it because, by her logic, it was just something to do to ensure that you can marry in the church if you want to. As it turns out, I have no desire to ever marry in the church, and if I could "undo" the Confirmation, I would.

This kind of thing is how the Roman Catholic Church created Lutherans.

caw

DancingMaenid said:

At my old church, you had to be 10th grade or older to be confirmed. Most people did it at 15. I'm not sure if that's something that depends on the diocese or not.

In any case, I don't think there's a time limit on it. I don't think it's something where if you don't do it in the 8th grade or 10th grade, you can't do it at all. I'm pretty sure adults who join Catholicism are confirmed, as well, though I think they usually go through a different process.

I seriously considered putting off my Confirmation for a year or two because I wasn't sure it was the right thing to do. As far as I could tell, that was a perfectly valid option. As it turned out, my mom convinced me to go ahead with it because, by her logic, it was just something to do to ensure that you can marry in the church if you want to. As it turns out, I have no desire to ever marry in the church, and if I could "undo" the Confirmation, I would.

Click to expand...

You're right. My mom converted a couple of years ago, and she went through confirmation. I was in 8th grade, and my husband, who went to parochial school was in 8th grade. Maybe that's just how it's done around here.

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a more tolerant priest somewhere who would confirm him.

I have a younger cousin who decided to convert to Catholicism at about the age of fourteen. He told the priest that he believed in reincarnation and the priest shrugged and said that a lot of Catholics believe in that nowadays. The baptism went ahead. Strange and definitely a bit curly in the theology department but still...true nevertheless.

mccardey said:

I guess my point is that Rome (read the Catholic Church) should change its antiquated, assinine, ignorant attitude and perhaps start listening to some of the good, caring people who work from inside it.

Click to expand...

There's something really antiquated they could do which would also be extremely progressive.

Before Gregory VII, there was such a thing as secular clergy. Priests who weren't at the same time, members of a monastic order, could be married and enjoy conjugal relations with their wives.

I think they should bring back secular clergy while maintaining the prohibition against simony, ordain priestesses and abolish vernacular liturgy. Throw in inclusiveness towards fellow humans who are gay and churches will be packed to the gunnels.

Rufus Coppertop said:

I wouldn't be surprised if there's a more tolerant priest somewhere who would confirm him.

I have a younger cousin who decided to convert to Catholicism at about the age of fourteen. He told the priest that he believed in reincarnation and the priest shrugged and said that a lot of Catholics believe in that nowadays. The baptism went ahead. Strange and definitely a bit curly in the theology department but still...true nevertheless.

Click to expand...

Except that reincarnation isn't really a big deal to the church these days. Gay marriage is.

I am from Minnesota, like this boy, and we got confirmed in the 8th grade when I was in school. But even back then, they were talking about moving it to the senior year in high school. It may even have been a decision of his school to do it that way.

I've noticed that young people today are very passionate about this issue, and they tend to be more in favor of gay marriage than their parents' demographic. This kind of thing is just going to drive more and more of them away from the church.

I think you're right Celia. It will drive more and more people away.

Plot Device said:

What's the difference?

Click to expand...

Human rights shouldn't have a damn thing to do with politics?

You should not be able to vote rights away from people. If you believe you have that right, you are an authoritarian douche-bag.

(you in this case being a general you, not a specific one)

blacbird said:

This kind of thing is how the Roman Catholic Church created Lutherans.

caw

Click to expand...

It's also why so many of us who were raised Catholic grow up to be apathetic at best, or downright anti-religious at worst. Being from an Irish family, married to an Italian, my life is full of angry lapsed Catholics and those who're heading that way precisely because the rules are so antiquated, irrelevant and exclusive.

I was a Catholic for most of my life, though I was one of those who usually only attended church on the major holidays.
A little over a year ago though I had an existential crisis where secular critical thinking did more to bring me peace than any religious message. My current philosophy on life and death isn't particularly anti-religious, but it is anti-establishment, if that makes sense. I would definitely say I'm agnostic.

I don't see the need for any kind of systems of religion. Just let each person find their own way.
If someone wants to follow something similar to another person's beliefs, that's fine, but that doesn't really justify a need for a religious organization that approves or disapproves of anything on behalf of its members.

I have not worked up the courage to impart this information to my parents.
Doubt I ever will. >.>

LOG said:

I don't see the need for any kind of systems of religion.

Click to expand...

It's a community. Like anything else. Like this one here.

My family is not sorry we left they church, but they do miss that sense of community.

missesdash said:

But surely a priest has more of a duty to uphold the tenants of his religion than he does to make individuals feel all warm and fuzzy about going against them?

Click to expand...

Upholding tenets is good. Opening an Office of the Holy Inquisition on Facebook is not so good. It stinks of self-righteousness.

Essentially, cracking down on a kid because of something incidental a priest saw on Facebook is not just pathetic, it's downright inquisitorial.

Until the church thoroughly clears the beams out of its own eye, its allegation of specks in the eyes of others, especially concerning sex between consenting adults, has a somewhat hollow and tinny ring.

crunchyblanket said:

It's also why so many of us who were raised Catholic grow up to be apathetic at best, or downright anti-religious at worst. Being from an Irish family, married to an Italian, my life is full of angry lapsed Catholics and those who're heading that way precisely because the rules are so antiquated, irrelevant and exclusive.

Click to expand...

Go eat some lutefisk, cure ya right up, you betcha.

caw