New and need some help....

Probably a coincidence; happens more than you might think.

When the movie Avatar came out I knew more than one person who thought their work had been stolen ("I had blue people in my story too!).

I wrote a story a few years ago. I thought it had quite a nice title. A year or two later a best-selling novel came out with the same title: The Fifth Horseman by James Patterson. I don't really think Mr. Patterson hacked into my computer and stole my title.

However, that's probably not going to dissuade you. You might have a disinterested party look at both your work and the book you mentioned and give you their opinion. Is it really the same, or similar. Are parts of it taken word-for-word, or just similar ideas?

Welcome to AW. Hope you enjoy your stay with us.
How do you like your popcorn? Hi neighbor.

If you go to the bottom of the page to the ‘forum jump’ you can scroll down and find all the areas of this place. Most of the SYW areas require the password of ….vista. A word to the wise, (50 posts), it would be a good idea to participate first in helping others before you think about posting your own work. After you have been around here for awhile, then post something of your own for help. Good luck.

I would say it is probably a coincidence. Clearly anyone is allowed to lift ideas and themes, but are there character names, lines of dialogue, stuff like that? I am no expert on this (I am a hardly a novice) but things like this are ridiculously hard to prove. Good luck if you go for it.

I would also agree it's more likely to be coincidence... something to consider... was it published by a house or agent you shopped it out to? Are there exact lines/paragraphs word for word from your novel in this published piece? If the answer to either of these questions is no, then it is way more likely a coincidence and very unlikely you'd be able to prove it or go anywhere with it. Keep us posted!

Welcome!

When I initially read your post, I was thinking it was just a coincidence. But, I just read your last post and saw that it was the same agent that you submitted to and that really gave me pause.

I am new here too, and I wish you luck in sorting this all out.

Hello Madison. I think it's coincidence too. If it's a book in 2010 and a movie in 2011, then the book was likely written in 2006 or even earlier. The phenomenon of convergence runs rampant in the arts. In our culture, so many of us are bombarded by the same inputs through movies, music, the news, etc. that many of us are inspired in similar ways.

My own experience with convergence: Dave Eggers is one of my favorite writers, but my jaw drops when I read him because so much of what he writes could have been written by me. The problem is he published his stuff before I wrote my stuff, even if I didn't discover it until later. Eggers and I grew up in similar parts of the country, are about the same age, read many of the same authors, and so on. It's natural we're going to have similar ideas.

ETA: I read your later post, and um....okay that seems more than convergence. Have you checked out this agent in Bewares, Recommendations and Background checks as well as on Preditors and Editors? It seems you have if you know the agent and agency are reputable. The bad news is IF this is not a coincidence, your choices are to either fight it with lawyers and such or let him/her have your book.

ETA2: The missing piece of this situation (if you have indeed been ripped off) is how a disreputable author obtained your manuscript from a reputable agency. That's the part that doesn't make sense.

Welcome!
What you are describing is scary.

If it were me, I would make a list of similarities and present them to a neutral third party. Or even give them a manuscript copy and a copy of the work in question. The problem, as I see it, would be your ability to prove your timeline of creation and submission against the other author's.

If you feel you can prove your allegation and another set of eyes on the situation concurs, I would definitely proceed with talking to a lawyer.
It just sucks all around. Yes, there are no new ideas under the sun, but if this situation is as you describe it, it puts a bad taste in my mouth. And makes me fearful of submitting my own work in the future.

If you can't prove, or find support, then I guess you have file the whole mess under "experience."
Just my two cents.

Good luck.

That would be hard to prove and expensive. But good luck to you

I have no experience in this area so I'm not sure I'll be any help... >.<
I wish you the best of luck Madison.
Welcome

~Amber~

It seems like one of the greatest fears of writers in general is that someone will steal their work. However, if you take that fear to heart then you will never let anyone read your work. If so, why did you write it if not for others to read? The fact is that they can't steal your work they can only take credit for it. That hurts but it is still your work people are enjoying.

My advice, for what its worth, is to take the standard precautions, add that agent to your "do not use" list and write another book better than the last one. Too much worry will only get in your way and one hit wonders are actually very rare. Either you have it or you don't. If you did it once you can do it again.

-Michael

Hi there! As far as I can see, you can only do one thing: check your original manuscript against the other one with a program that can find copied text, (they exist on the internet, and are used by most online companies that publish text) Copyscape is an example. If you find too many similarities, you'll have to take this to a lawyer who is skilled in dealing with artisctic domain and let him/her judge if they can make a case. If so, you'll have to take it further. I don't know about the US, but in my country the winning party pays all the dues, next to the fine.


Nickie

Nickie said:

Hi there! As far as I can see, you can only do one thing: check your original manuscript against the other one with a program that can find copied text, (they exist on the internet, and are used by most online companies that publish text) Copyscape is an example. If you find too many similarities, you'll have to take this to a lawyer who is skilled in dealing with artisctic domain and let him/her judge if they can make a case. If so, you'll have to take it further. I don't know about the US, but in my country the winning party pays all the dues, next to the fine.


Nickie

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Good advice. Gather all your evidence, then consult with an intellectual rights lawyer. It's that or suck it up, I'm afraid.

Madison Daniel said:

Thank you all for your kind thoughts and advice. I can't wait to become more involved on the forum.

I know my question is hard to answer with only a few vague details I have mentioned but here are TWO things to consider........1. One of the main characters have the same name and exact hobbies as mine. 2. One of the first agents and company that I queried my story to IS the same agent of the author of the book in question. The agencies and agent are well respected BUT the author is not. It could all still be coincidence and I am ok with that. I just wanted to hear some other thoughts and ideas.

Thanks again for your time and making me feel welcome.........M.D.

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Give it up. Such coincidences happen all the time. The author has no reason to steal your book, and would have had no opportunity. Do you really think a reputable agent would risk her entire career by showing your unpublished manuscript to another writer?

There is no chance that your book was stolen, In truth, nothing at all fits, and even if it did, by your own words, there's nothing in the other book that would give you a case.

And it doesn't matter a bit if the other writer is hated. He didn't steal your book, and he had absolutely no need to steal your book. Whoever the writer is, I can guarantee the last thing he needs is your book, as a template or anything else. Ideas, stories, and themes are a dime a dozen, and no writer needs those of other writers.

And none of these things are actionable, anyway. Copyright covers the words you use to tell a story, not your theme, not your character name, and not even your basic story.

Every theme has been done to death. So has nearly every character name, and every basic story.

This is not only coincidence, it's one that happens a hundred times per year. It's not even a remarkable coincidence. Darned near every bestseller out there, and darned near every movie made, has fifty writers who swear their book or movie script was stolen. This is why you have to sign a release form before anyone will read your screenplay.

And, seriously, how dumb do you think the agent and writer are? Even a potted plant would be smart enough to change the name of the main character.

For some reason I suspect I know what book and movie you are talking about.

While I won't swear up and down that writers don't steal from other writers, I will say it doesn't happen as often as people think it does, ie. fifty times a day. I can't tell you how many times I've shed tears over work I've slaved over only for someone else to release the same idea first. It's coincidence. It happens all the time. Even with things like names and hobbies. It also happens that 2 similar manuscripts land on an agents desk at the same time, especially in YA for example, where similar themes are running though many of the books these days. Just because the agent picks one, doesn't mean it is stolen from the other.

It will be very hard to make a case here but good luck to you with it. Keep us up to date on if you do manage to prove anything.

Welcome to AW.

Hi, Madison, and welcome...

I don't want to pooh-pooh your concerns, but here are a few things to consider:

Madison Daniel said:

Sadly there is nothing word for word from my manuscript (OTHER THAN ONE OF MY CHARACTERS NAMES AND MAIN HOBBY OF HERS - WHICH IS A MAIN PART OF MY STORY...)

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If your main character's name is something like Abraxina DeLorescope, and her hobby is viewing fungal cells under a microscope, I'd be concerned. If her name is Ella (a common name, likely to be used by any author) and her hobby is knitting (a common hobby, likely to be used by any author) then I think you're blowing this out of proportion.

BUT my story and characters and direct themes are all over the place.

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If your story is about Abraxina going to the moon and discovering a new civilization there, then you've got reason to be concerned. If your story is about a girl trying to make sense of high-school life, then you're blowing this out of proportion.

If your theme is the subtleties of evolution by natural selection, then you can be worried. If your theme is "learn to love yourself," then you're blowing this out of proportion.

See what I'm saying here? Some common elements are -- well -- common. Others elements are very unusual. Did your 2008 novel stick to the usual tropes of your genre? If so, then it's far more likely that this other author just did the same...she stuck to the usual tropes of the genre. As other posters already noted, there can be a lot of convergence in the arts, particularly when it comes to fiction, which has been broken down into genres and subgenres, wherein readers expect to receive certain experiences, characters, and themes.

The time line fits, the connection of agencies fits, and the author in question is one of the most hated at the moment.

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The most glaring question to me is, why would an agent risk her career by sullying her reputation in this way (passing along prime details from a queried work to an author she already represents) instead of just signing you and selling your book? All agents everywhere know that first-time novelists need a little work to bring their stuff up to a salable level; they're not deterred by the fact that your book could use some spit-shining and expect to put some revision work in when they sign you. If your idea, characters, story, and themes are so unique, why wouldn't this agent just have signed YOU? I'm not trying to dog you, but rather trying to point out the flaw in your thinking. The agent stood nothing to gain and everything to lose by passing your ideas on to an author she already represents.

And why is this author so hated? if she's just hated for jealousy reasons, then I think you're blowing this out of proportion. If she's hated because she's a known plagiarizer, then you might have a reason to be suspicious.

I just feel a little scared and let down. I want to be a writer. I love it. Period. If I have no legal leg to stand on than I'll move on...quietly...and continue writing. Experience can hurt sometimes.

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I know. It would be shocking to see this kind of thing happen. But you should also keep in mind how often similar characters, themes, names, etc. pop up within genres. I think you may be so upset by the shock of seeing the shadow of tropes that you're allowing yourself to be less than rational about this.

I think the best thing you can do is to write another great book, and query it (and keep querying your 2008 one, too, if you still feel it's worth publishing. It probably is!) Focus on a new project. When it comes time to query it, don't submit it to that agency if it will make you feel more secure...but understand that the scenario you suspect is really unlikely. Your queries are safe with reputable agents.

Good luck, lady! Keep writing. You'll get there.

An example of convergence in the arts. I once wrote a short mystery story that opened with a woman in an evening dress and coat and high-heeled shoes running away from a house. There was a cocktail party going on the house. It was night. she was running downhill on a paved driveway. At some point she tripped and fell. She believed she was being followed.

Two weeks later, a brand new collection of previously unknown short stories by Dashiell Hammett was published. These stories were being published for the first time. The opening scene of the first one I looked at, opening the book at Barnes & Nobel, was a near exact mirror of my own scene, down to the smallest details.

I know I didn't rip off Hammett, since his story hadn't been published when I wrote my story, and I'm fairly sure Hammett didn't travel into the future to rip me off. But I tell you, it made me doubt reality for a few minutes.

This sounds like an unfortunate coincidence, especially since the other writer is someone whose reputation you don't trust. If I were in your position, I'd seek another opinion from a disinterested reader, comparing the two. And if nothing can be proven, I'd probably rewrite my story to be less like the one that beat me to print. You did say you wished you had crafted it better.

Looking at your time line, I do think it's coincidence. For it to be theft, the agent would have had to contact the author almost immediately, and the author would have to crank out 80K new words based on your ideas within three months ("in the first quarter"). It could be done, but again if the agent is reputable and the author accomplished (even if not liked) there is no motive for them to do this.

Cards on the table here - are you talking about I AM NUMBER FOUR? If so, then I hate to break it to you, but the hobbies and plot of that novel and film were so generic as for it to be very difficult to prove that the authors Jobie Hughes and James Frey took your idea.

MM

Momento Mori said:

Cards on the table here - are you talking about I AM NUMBER FOUR? If so, then I hate to break it to you, but the hobbies and plot of that novel and film were so generic as for it to be very difficult to prove that the authors Jobie Hughes and James Frey took your idea.

MM

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Since you named it, I was thinking of the same book and movie.

What are the hobbies and the name? I mean, certain names pop up over and over in fiction. Jack, Kate, Kat, etc. etc. I joked the whole way through Mass Effect 2 over the fact that half of the names from Lost popped up in there somewhere, but at the same time, Lost also used four names from the first novel I ever wrote and that was fifteen years ago. Obviously they didn't see the book, it was just coincidence (and I'm talking names like Locke and Ethan, not the more common ones).

Hobbies are the same. I mean, a boy in high school on the baseball team, for example, is fairly common. School badminton team maybe not so much.

My guess is that this is just pure coincidence. Unless they lifted actual paragraphs and lines (and I don't mean generic lines like "What do you think you're doing?"), you don't really have a case.

Over in the PA section there is a case where an author is suing Stephen King for plagiarism. You can look through his arguments there, including the list of what he is claiming are the plagiarized elements. There isn't a case there, either, but maybe it will show you a bit more of how coincidental these things can be. It's very, very common for people to write something and then see the same story show up somewhere else. It's a common complaint on these boards, actually.