Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

Status
Not open for further replies.

Yeshanu

Re: I am often

Faye,

Sorry to disagree with you, but both the "gun" sentences are in the active voice, and either could be correct in certain circumstances.

"The gun pressed into her ribs." The gun (subject) is doing the pressing, therefore the sentence is active voice.

"The gun was pressed into her ribs." Here, someone not mentioned is pressing the gun into her ribs, therefore, the gun is passive and so is the sentence. Much less powerful than the above, but it, too, could be correct in the right place. For instance, it might serve to highlight the character's powerlessness over events, etc.
 

reph

Re: Page Turners

Yeshanu, Faye said the sentence was "passive in tone," not that it was in passive voice. Anyway, "pressed" in "The gun was pressed into her ribs" could be construed as a participial adjective, like "stuck" in "The poster was stuck to the wall, and nobody could get it loose."
 

Yeshanu

Re: Your ms

Oops -- didn't read the "in tone" part... :eek:

Personally, though, if a gun pressed into my ribs, I wouldn't think it very passive in tone at all... :b
 

maestrowork

Re: Inanimate Objects

Well it's arguable given we only has sentence fragments here without the context. Is it the gun that is doing the pressing, or is it, as Reph said, a participial adjective as in: "the gun pressed into her ribs was hurting her"?
 

JuliePgh

Inanimate Objects

No participial adjective intended. Question was based on whether "He pressed the gun into her ribs" could be modified to "The gun pressed into her ribs." Obviously someone is holding the gun, but by removing "he" from the action, I wasn't sure if the gun doing the 'pressing' was "acceptable." I prefaced the initial question by saying, "I'm losing perspective. When is it appropriate to give an inanimate object control of the action?"

What sparked this question was a thread some while back (which I can't locate) regarding, and forgive me if I don't remember clearly, the inappropriateness of inanimate objects displaying emotions. Perhaps someone could point me to the thread or briefly review. Thank you.
 

Yeshanu

Re: Page Turners

I remember the discussion, but I can't find it just now...

If I remember correctly, I think it was more along the lines of personification of inanimate objects, for example, "a weeping sky," etc. A sky can't weep -- it has no feelings-- but a gun can certainly press into someone's back. So I don't think that's the problem here.
 

reph

Re: Pressing matters

Julie, in response to your newly restated question, I'd say that "The gun pressed into her ribs" is perfectly all right. An inanimate object can press into something. (Similarly, you can say "The ball bearing rolled across the floor" without attributing intention to the ball bearing.) I agree with those who said the choice of wording depends on POV.
 

maestrowork

Re: Inanimate Objects

"The gun pressed into her ribs" -- the inanimate object is not showing emotion. Simply an action, so it's perfectly fine (as in "the window smacked her in the head").

Now if you say "the gun teased and taunted her..." it might borderline on pathetic fallacy.
 

JuliePgh

pathetic fallacy

Thanks, Maestro, "pathetic fallacy" was the term I was looking for but I still can't find it under the search function.

I hate to revisit an old topic, but what exactly is wrong with saying something like 'the gun teased and taunted her...'? Can't such a statement be used to imply the character's state of mind instead of trying to convince the reader that the gun has emotions? And I don't mean that the character has to have psychological problems either. I'm just thinking about that left over piece of chocolate birthday cake that keeps calling me, begging me to eat it ...
 

maestrowork

Re: Page Turners

Well, but why don't you just say "the assailant teased and taunted her with the gun?" The "teasing" and "taunting" belong to the man who holds the gun -- a gun itself can't tease.

Also, if you do "the gun teased and taunted her" you have a POV problem because the POV character is the woman, not the man or the gun.

I said it's borderline because "teasing" and "taunting" can be acceptable in the right situation. But things like "the sky weeps with tears" or "the gun laughed at her" is definitely pathetic fallacy.

I think most of it depends on if you're projecting the characters feelings on the object. In your case, for example, "the cake keeps calling me" -- 1) it's a projection of your desire; 2) there's actually not a lot of inherent "feelings" in calling. But if you say: "the cake laughed at me because I was fat" it's pushing pathetic fallacy, even though you're still projecting. Sometimes the difference is very subtle.
 

ChunkyC

Re: Pressing matters

I think you could 'push the envelope' of pathetic fallacy if you have set your reader up properly with a character who would be believable projecting onto inanimate objects in that way. It would be a tricky business, but worth it if you do it just right.
 

macalicious731

Re: Inanimate Objects

I've got a bit of a formatting question. I've seen the examples... drop the title halfway down, then start the chapter a few lines after that... I have all of the formalities.

However, I've never seen an example which might include a sub-heading, such as "Part One." Is there a specific number of lines needed to seperate the title from the subheading, and then again for the chapter? I know some books disregard "Part One" all together, but it's something I would like to include, at least for now.

Thanks!
 

ChunkyC

Re: Part One

I was told to treat it in the same way as a chapter heading, and push the chapter heading down the same distance as the text is from the chapter heading itself:

novel / by me / pg.101 (right-justified header)







PART TWO



CHAPTER TWENTY-TWO​



And so begins the second part of our journey blah blah blah....
 

macalicious731

Re: Page Turners

Okay, that makes sense. But what if it's "Part One"? Because then you're already starting halfway down the page, and if you used a new page... doesn't that violate the "no title page" part?

Hmm... ....
 

ChunkyC

Re: Pressing matters

I would put PART ONE where you would have put CHAPTER ONE, then move down four lines (hit ENTER twice if you're already set for double-spacing), put CHAPTER ONE and continue on as normal. It won't push the body of the story completely off the first page, though it does mean there'll be fewer lines of the body of the story itself, but that's not really all that big a deal, I don't think.

I'm sure Uncle Jim or some of the other published writers can tell us if this is acceptable.
 

Euan Harvey

Emotions of POV characters

Uncle Jim,

Have you got any suggestions for how to deal with the emotions and feelings of a POV character when in tight 3rd person?

The reason I ask is that I've been told that saying things like 'X frowned' 'X smiled' 'X whatevered' is sometimes a POV glitch, as X couldn't see themselves smile, frown whatever. So it should look like 'X felt himself frown', which seems kinda clunky to me.

So, showing emotion through body language and expression is seen as a POV glitch, which leaves things like: 'X felt nervous', 'X felt rage ignite within him', 'A wave of fear rose up within X', but I've been told that things like this are a bit 'telly' and distance the reader.

Any suggestions?

Euan.
 

maestrowork

Re: Part One

The reason I ask is that I've been told that saying things like 'X frowned' 'X smiled' 'X whatevered' is sometimes a POV glitch, as X couldn't see themselves smile, frown whatever. So it should look like 'X felt himself frown', which seems kinda clunky to me.

No, frown or smile are fine because even though you can't see your own smile or frown, you know you ARE smiling or frowning. I don't see any problem with POV.

I think some writers (I don't where you read about this "POV glitch" idea) take the POV thing too far. Remember the narrator POV which is omnicient when you write in 3rd limited, and stop filtering everything through your POV character (he saw, he felt, he heard...) when something happened, just tell it since the narrator knows everything. It is when you go inside the character's head or describe the actual "feeling" (and not the expression of it which are "frowns" or "smiles" or "huffs" etc.) that you need to be limit yourself to POV character.


If you say, "Her face flushed scarlet" it maybe construed as a POV glitch but since you're telling from 3rd limited, no problem. Remember, even in 3rd person, the narrator is still a character. The narrator knows everything (but can only go into the mind of one character at a time in 3rd limited). So the narrator can certainly say "X's face turned red" -- not a POV glitch.

However, if you're writing in 1st person, then clearly you can't see your own face turning red. You will have to say something like "I feel like my face is turning red."
 

James D Macdonald

Briefly

I'm not at my usual computer; I'm enroute to WorldCon right now (see some of you there!).

Briefly --

First page of novel that has parts:

<PRE>
Your name
Address
City, State, ZIP
(Phone)/Email






Title
by
Name

Part One

Chapter One

He was a dark and stormy knight....
</pre>


Formatting is not such an exact thing that people will sneer at you for not having the precisely "right" number of spaces between the chapter heading and the first line of text. What I'd do in that case is put "Part One" where normally I'd put "Chapter One," then double-space, put "Chapter One," then double-space, indent, and start the story.

<HR>

You get into the pathetic fallacy when you say something like "She felt the angry muzzle of the gun pressed into her side." Even then, I can see using phrases like that for spice. Just don't over-do it, and make sure that it reveals character.

(Side note: when discussing hypothetical phrasings, recall that the paragraph is the smallest unit of your story. Look at the sentence in a paragraph to see how it sounds and how it flows.)

<HR>

In third person, the narrator can see everything, but can only enter one person's head at a time. You can say "Ralph felt himself coloring" or "Irene blushed" without breaking POV if you're in Ralph's head (provided Ralph can see Irene).

<HR>

I promise to come back and do much fuller comments on stuff all the way back to the Grisham, soon.

And I still owe y'all the Firedoor Theory of Novel Construction.
 

reph

Re: Pressing matters

People don't feel their faces turn red, but they do feel them turn hot. Writers commonly take advantage of the felt temperature change to "show" blushing or anger. In fact, when I read about some character who sensed that his face was heating up, I think "That writer went to a workshop and learned about POV. Homework done – check!"

Maybe the hot-face device is too common and everybody should now stop using it.
 

Yeshanu

Re: Briefly

I'll write it, and you can beta read. Okay, CC? :b

But I might change it just a tad...

She was a dark and stormy knight.

Hm... Maybe I'll just start a thread on the writing exercises and prompts board... :grin (See ya over there...)
 

gp101

HELP

I know I've asked font questions before, and I know we're to use Courier for our manuscripts. However...

Has anyone had this happen to them:

you change the font on your document from TR to Courier and there are a lot of little hiccups? Most notably, it appears you get a space after each opening quotation mark? So that "Forget it." becomes " Forget it."

Is this common to everyone? Is this acceptable to agents/publishers for a manuscript?

It doesn't happen in the Courier New font, just in the plain Courier font; but Courier New adds on considerably more pages at 12-point. I noticed the text in Courier New is considerably larger than text in plain old Courier or TR, so I tried Courier New (since it is more attractive with fewer hiccups) in 10-point and 11-point, but the text is visibly smaller than plain Courier or TR, so I won't try that again.

What's the verdict? Is plain old Courier 12-point the best way to go even if it leaves a space after each opening quotation mark? Or do I need to use Courier New 12-point, and add on fifty more pages?

Appreciate any advice.
 

HConn

Re: Part One

gp, is this a spacebar space, so that, if you keyed the cursor along the word, it has an extra space in there to move across? Or is it just roomy in there, with no spacebar space?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.