Magical Realism

MR in a bottle

I think my head hurts -- if it's really my head, and not a bell jar. By the above described definitions, would Dennis Wheatley's novels be considered MR? His settings are contemporary, his characters completely modern, but they are opposing people who routinely use magick to get what they want, and end up invoking the Devil himself on Salisbury Plain. By any of the definitions offered, absent the political element, most horror stories would fall into this category.

Without reading them, I'd say that sounds more like urban fantasy than magical realism.

MMcQuown said:

I think my head hurts -- if it's really my head, and not a bell jar. By the above described definitions, would Dennis Wheatley's novels be considered MR? His settings are contemporary, his characters completely modern, but they are opposing people who routinely use magick to get what they want, and end up invoking the Devil himself on Salisbury Plain. By any of the definitions offered, absent the political element, most horror stories would fall into this category.

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Using 'magick' and invoking the devil implies a system of magic, which is a pretty good sign that it's not magical realism IMO. In magical realism the magic is just there, and nobody calls attention to it with conjuring or summoning magical forces and whatnot.

Most horror isn't MR because there's a system in place and people spend time talking about it/explaining it/figuring it out (or at least the narrator does). Like, Freddy Krueger comes in your dreams and kills you! But if you stay awake, you're fine. But you can't stay awake forever (poor poor Johnny Depp). Why does Freddy live in your nightmares? Well. His mother was a nun who was raped by a hundred insane criminals, thus making him evil. Then he became a regular old child murderer, until he was killed by the townspeople. That's why he's evil undead. But, by a convenient caveat, if you drag him to the real world, you can kill him. There's a whole system of strengths and weaknesses and explanations and systems for everything surrounding him...and that's why horror isn't MR. I think.

Kitty Pryde said:

Using 'magick' and invoking the devil implies a system of magic, which is a pretty good sign that it's not magical realism IMO. In magical realism the magic is just there, and nobody calls attention to it with conjuring or summoning magical forces and whatnot.

Most horror isn't MR because there's a system in place and people spend time talking about it/explaining it/figuring it out (or at least the narrator does). Like, Freddy Krueger comes in your dreams and kills you! But if you stay awake, you're fine. But you can't stay awake forever (poor poor Johnny Depp). Why does Freddy live in your nightmares? Well. His mother was a nun who was raped by a hundred insane criminals, thus making him evil. Then he became a regular old child murderer, until he was killed by the townspeople. That's why he's evil undead. But, by a convenient caveat, if you drag him to the real world, you can kill him. There's a whole system of strengths and weaknesses and explanations and systems for everything surrounding him...and that's why horror isn't MR. I think.

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Oooookaaayy! A think is as good as a mile. This seems to be a lot like the blind men examining the elephant, but at least it does make people think.

I’m another of those whose writing started out with elements of magical realism before I actually had heard of the term. It’s just the way my thought processes worked. I remember way, way, way, back in college in freshman English, we read The Metamorphosis. The professor, in a voice that suggested she had asked this question many times before, asked the class if anyone believed Gregor had actually turned into a bug. I was one of the few that raised my hand in the affirmative.

Now even though I wasn’t very well-read or well-educated at the time, I did understand that the story could be read, and would be read by most, as a metaphor of a man who loses, or gives up, what differentiates humans from lower life forms. But to me, it read as a man who physically transforms, or was transformed, into a bug.

As the debate raged, I pretty much stayed out of it, except to say a few times, “I really don’t think it matters. Isn’t that really the point?” But no one paid attention.

And I still think that’s really the point of magical realism. It really doesn’t matter. Both interpretations are valid. One just as valid as the other. They are yes or no, black or white, on or off, yin or yang, positive or negative. Two distinct states of being, but one not better or even preferable to the other.

A long time ago, it was probably taken for granted that some women could make men fall in love with them through the power, or magic, of their cooking. Later, this was pooh-poohed as superstitious nonsense. A man conceivably could fall in love with a woman after a great meal, but there was no causal relationship there. And now? Is such a thing possible? Could it be that love is such a complex state of being and we are so ignorant of its real origins, or more accurately it is so complex that we can never understand its origins, that such a thing could very well happen?

And that to me is magical realism. The acknowledgement of the limits of our ability to understand how the world works, leading to the acknowledgement of the validity of alternative relationships and unproven, and probably unprovable, connections. None of which are more valid than any other.

MR isn't saying 'there are more things in heaven and earth' because its whimsy is localised and unexplored, while fantasy either generalises its whimsy or dives into it. Wheately does the latter -- he's a straight, turn-over-a-rock horror writer.

The magic in MR isn't whimsy so much as hyperbole. We're not drawn to it because it's wonderful; we accept it because it's a natural extension of character. You could curb it to mundane levels and other than aesthetically the story would be unchanged.

I'm glad I saw this thread pop up! I was at a loss for explaining my WIP a few months ago. After doing some research, I finally realized I had a Magic Realism piece.

BUT after reading this thread...well, I'm confused again. LOL Oh, well. I'll just keep writing and let someone else tell me what it is later!

Awesome, awesome new posts on this! I agree with every one of you.

Wrinkles, I'm totally begging you to read my WIP when it's done.

If anyone wants to pitch in some thoughts on what would happen to MR if a strong dose of satire were thrown in, please do if it's not too off-topic. That's my WIP.

I could see the satire in Marquez, clearly. But mine's a bit more like Catch-22 with ghouls. I don't know if I've morphed it right out of MR because of that.

-- I'm confident the magic in mine is MR, btw. Don't let the 'ghouls' part throw you off I'll explain if anyone is interested.

Backslashbaby - MR combined with a good dose of satire sounds like a recipe for a hit. Now I'm not an expert on satire by any means. I don't write it. Creating some form of reality is hard enough for me without trying to transcend it. But I did like Catch 22 and Little Big Man is one of my favorite movies. Do they combine elements of both?

Oooh, Little Big Man is new to me! Awesome.

I read satire like Voltaire and those wonderful old essays of the day. And Swift. Then Heller. I grew up on MASH

Then Marquez and Allende, etc. got me into MR.

There are obvious political critiques/satire in MR, but I haven't read any that are meant to be funny through and through [Or are they?]

I think Ruv's quote: "The magic in MR isn't whimsy so much as hyperbole" is how my mind combined the two so heavily. Or Swift's tales, maybe.

In any case, glad to hear you think the idea is a winner! Me, too I don't know which to call it, so I call it MR Satire for now

Regan Leigh said:

I'm glad I saw this thread pop up! I was at a loss for explaining my WIP a few months ago. After doing some research, I finally realized I had a Magic Realism piece.

BUT after reading this thread...well, I'm confused again. LOL Oh, well. I'll just keep writing and let someone else tell me what it is later!

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To paraphrase an infamous quotation: "Write them all -- the Publisher will know his own."

Is Ben Okri's The Famished Road Magical Realism or Surrealist writing? The content is incredibly political without being politicised. And incidentally, is there possibly a distinct subset of magical realism characterised by the story unfolding through the eyes of a child, or at least, as in The Tin Drum a character who seems infantile to all around them.

Joanna said:

Is Ben Okri's The Famished Road Magical Realism or Surrealist writing? The content is incredibly political without being politicised. And incidentally, is there possibly a distinct subset of magical realism characterised by the story unfolding through the eyes of a child, or at least, as in The Tin Drum a character who seems infantile to all around them.

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I would say that Okri's work would be the most perfect example of MR if it didn't get so surreal Seriously, I think it's both. It gets kind of waaaay out there for a bit long compared to the usual 'realism' in MR, but too many elements are perfect MR to say it's not. It's perfect

I like the idea of a child-magic subset of MR, but I have a hard time telling if anyone is agreeing on subsets. On one hand, there are great dissertations and academic essays on MR that I've read, and on the other folks still argue whether it even exists as a genre

hmm - wouldn't shows like Bewitched, The Flying Nun, & The Ghost and Mrs Muir &c count as magical realism?

I've always wondered what magical realism actually is - I think I've read very few magical realism books. But, looking at this thread, it *seems* to me that the real distinguishing factor is that MR is void of the world-building excercise. Thus the 'realism'. Its this world, this plane. Just happens to be something else here.

Its this world, this plane. Just happens to be something else here.
__________________

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That sounds spot-on to me There are elements of anti-colonialism and social/political things that used to mark it much more, imho, but that might be going away from what I'm gathering with newer MR.

Okri, for example, is speaking with a such an African voice, using African folklore but not questioning it, that I say 'Aha! MR!'

Other examples that are less folkloric + political stump me more.

Thanks for the response, I agree about the subsets/genre probs, as it is a category defined by individualism, writers aren't following the supposed rules for adult fiction set in our world. I have to disagree about Okri, but glad you are a fan The surrealism you encounter in The Famished Road all dovetails into the culture specific worldview of its African characters, (spirits, totemic personalities, fetishes, sympathetic magic) and doesn't to my recollection draw on the alien, random, incongruous or absurd elements which I associate with the surreal. I know the dream-like sequences could be percieved as surreal in affect, but not I feel in their content. They are more reminiscent of perceptive shifts, neurological or epileptic fugues that are our cultures way of explaining the spiritual experiences in indigenous cultures, like possession.
Is altered consciousness always synonymous with the surreal?
What do you make of the link between violence and surrealism, and is there as much MR depicted violence?

sorry to throw the dissertation at you, I should warn you to duck next time.

Much like "minimalism", which is indelibly linked with Raymond Carver, "magic realism" is a term more-or-less coined to describe the fiction of Gabriel Garcia Marquez. Beyond that, I don't consider it a very useful box in which to stuff anyone else's fiction.

caw

Joanna said:

Thanks for the response, I agree about the subsets/genre probs, as it is a category defined by individualism, writers aren't following the supposed rules for adult fiction set in our world. I have to disagree about Okri, but glad you are a fan The surrealism you encounter in The Famished Road all dovetails into the culture specific worldview of its African characters, (spirits, totemic personalities, fetishes, sympathetic magic) and doesn't to my recollection draw on the alien, random, incongruous or absurd elements which I associate with the surreal. I know the dream-like sequences could be percieved as surreal in affect, but not I feel in their content. They are more reminiscent of perceptive shifts, neurological or epileptic fugues that are our cultures way of explaining the spiritual experiences in indigenous cultures, like possession.
Is altered consciousness always synonymous with the surreal?


What do you make of the link between violence and surrealism, and is there as much MR depicted violence?

sorry to throw the dissertation at you, I should warn you to duck next time.

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No, I love this kind of discussion! I'm better at reading about it, mind you. I think you have a great point above about the surrealism. I don;t know nearly enough about what constitutes surrealism, actually. I do think the 'magic' in MR - the 'surreal' elements - has specifically themed meanings even if it appears absurd to the reader.

I found a great quote:

Borges never particularly objected to the term[magical realist], but Cortazar, the author of the short story "Blow Up," which was made into a beautiful film by Michelangelo Antonioni, screamed. What Anglophone critics failed to acknowledge, Cortazar said, was that the "magical" elements of his stories were not magical but rather were political. In one of Cortazar’s stories, "Bestiary," there is a tiger roaming through the house. North American critics said, How marvelous! How magical! and sought psychological interpretations. As Cortazar pointed out, his story was (almost) literally accurate: the secret police of the junta lurked in everyone’s homes because dime-dropping informers, in Argentina at that time, were a dime a dozen. But Anglophones, particularly Americans, prefer to erase unpleasant truths in favor of a fairy-tale fantasy, and this, said Cortazar, is the continuation of colonialism by other means.

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http://www.curledup.com/brodiesr.htm

That also ties nicely into the violence question. I don't know about violence and surrealism actually (I'd love to hear about it), but MR explores so much violence that it's important to note that the magic is very often about real-life atrocities. In MR, the magic never saves them from the violence or despair, btw. At best it just raises different choices for the poor characters. The most commonly-known example I can think of is Beloved.

But for the traditional South American kind, check out this article:

http://www.maximsnews.com/biosilvanapaternostro.htm

I would like to thank Gregory, Kara and Susanna for inviting me to come to Los Angeles and talk to you about Colombia, the country of my birth, a country that has been at war for at least the last 40 years, the country that I left when I was 15, and the country where my family still lives. We all know of Colombia as the birthplace of Garcia Marquez and magical realism. Well, I was born right there in the land of what literature critics like to call magical realism. But on the north coast of Colombia where I was born, sometimes things happen that can be as absurd as the events that unfold in his novels in which bullets turn corners and women levitate. ​

I grew up believing that if I swam in the ocean on Good Friday I would turn into a fish. My nanny, a young woman from the countryside, said it with such belief—that who was I to test the waters? ​

Magical realism is perfectly suited to a country like Colombia, where the truth is often so terrible and unspeakable that it needs to be told as if it were a fantasy. In fact, much of what you read in Garcia Marquez’ books is something that has happened or he has heard has happened. Marquez said that to write magical realism one has to become a journalist in Colombia. Garcia Marquez, a journalist before he was a novelist, transcribes Colombia's daily life. ​

Yet although these stories are the basis for beautiful literature, life in Colombia is not quite as beautiful. In the first sentence of Chronicle of A Death Foretold, Santiago Nassar is told his killers are looking for him—they had told everyone that they were going to kill him. In fact something quite similar happened to a distant member of my family.... ​

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I forget who said it, but I always loved the quote: "the sacred and the profane are part of the same ooze." That feels very MR to me

I'm going to squeeze in one quote from Rushdie that explains a bit about his thoughts on MR, mostly in response to Blacbird's comments. I know very many people don't recognize MR as a genre that is real and can grow, but there is something there, I think [obviously ].

"El realismo magical, magical realism, at least as practiced by Marquez, is a development out of Surrealism that expresses a genuinely 'Third World' consciousness. It deals with what Naipul has called 'half-made' societies, in which the impossibly old struggles against the appallingly new."

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That's enough for now. Sorry about the rambling manner!

I think identifying the difference between fantasy and mr as similar to that between adventure fiction and literary fiction is pretty spot on.

Good recent example is Neil Gaiman's American Gods, although there is an "adventure", the real plot is Shadow dealing with his wife's betrayal and finding his backbone.

Thanks ever so much for thse qouotes \baby

I don't think anybody can't beat Julio Cortazar when it comes to magical realism. His book Hopscotch is simply a masterpiece but he also has a lot of other, less-known books, that are equally amazing.

Interesting thread. I have a better understanding of magical realism.

NewKidOldKid said:

I don't think anybody can't beat Julio Cortazar when it comes to magical realism. His book Hopscotch is simply a masterpiece but he also has a lot of other, less-known books, that are equally amazing.

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I have to say Salman Rushdie is the king of this genre

I'm surprised no one mentioned The Obscene Bird of Night by Jose Donoso. He's my intro to this ever elusive genre and a outstanding one.

I've always felt that if you're a white American guy, then it's probably fantasy. If you're brown, a woman or from another country, then it's Magical Realism.

Of course, that still doesn't account for Emma Bull.

WW