We need an Amendment, Quick

Duncan J Macdonald

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Duncan:

I agree with you in principal, that the Constitution defines what the Federal government can do as opposed to what it can do, but that hasn't stopped the government from forcing the banks to sell them an equity position, has it? If this were taken to court, and the SCOTUS had to decide it, would they look at the 10th Amendment and say "Unconstitutional" and force the government to divest their equity interest in the banks? I have no confidence they would do that. Hence my proposal for a limiting amendment.

Actually, however, the Bill of Rights is written in a way to define what the Federal government cannot do. "Congress shall make no law" is in several amendments, as is "[this right] shall not be abridged" (or something like that; no time to look it up). So I guess I disagree with you that the Constitution only defines what government can do. Sometimes it defines what government can't.

Thanks for contributing,
NDG

True, the first ten amendments (the Bill of Rights) does in fact mention several times "shall not". However,
Bills of rights were typically parts of the constitutions of the several states of the day (and today), placed there to ensure that certain rights were recognized by the government.
(From US Constitution.net)
If we had a truly constructionist Supreme Court, rather than the liberal mess it is today, I would have no problem placing this before the Court. In truth, I would require all proposed legislation to be vetted by the Court for constitutionality as a pre-condition for passage.
 

Higgins

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The framers of the Constitution did their work before socialism, communism, and Marxism had their chance and failed, and so probably did not address this adequately in our foundational law. So, when the government doing this is challenged in court, the courts may not have any basis for preventing the government from buying companies.

Didn't we already go through this with the New Deal? The way around the problem of Fed ownership is just invent a legal entity (eg the Tennessee Valley Authority) and give it the powers that are required to solve a problem. Unless you are going to rewrite all of corporate law, an amendment will make no difference in preventing the Fed gov from creating holding companies to own whatever it needs to own.
 

Norman D Gutter

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Jason:

You said:
Name one trustworthy, conservative finanical institution that wasn't caught with its pants around its ankles. Better yet, name one trustworty financial institution. With the exception of local banks and one or two corporate banks (Wells Fargo comes to mind), none are weathering this storm. They ALL bought into the mortgage game and lost because they, their middle men and others created were losing propositions for people who couldn't have afforded it in the first place.

By all accounts, the markets are still cleaning themselves out of the bad body parts. However, the feds BUYING the institutions means taxpayers like you and I get oversight -- at least in the short term -- of righting the ship.
You are sort of making my point for me by mentioning the likes of Wells Fargo and local banks. The vast majority of local banks are fine. Most people do their banking at local, retail banks. We have about ten local banks in our county. Nine appear to be fine; one was taken over by the State banking commission this year and another bank was assigned to oversee the distribution of assets. That was the bank our company banks at, and the chairman of that bank sits on our Board. But it was all sorted through fine; no panic, no loss of deposits. That bank failed from having too many bad loans versus the size of their reserves.

The fact that three or four--or even five, six, or seven--mega-banks have a temporary liquidity problem should not justify the drastic means of a Federal partial take-over of the banks. Hence, due to this knee-jerk reaction, I propose my amendment. If a crisis of confidence can cause such an over-the-top reaction of the Administration (Paulson and Bush), the Congress, a supposedly neutral institution (Bernanke and the other idiots at the Federal Reserve), the news media (partial contributors to the panic but not the sole cause), and our citizens, then we need some kind of control to keep this type of thing from happening. IMHO. This Constitutional amendment would protect Americans from themselves, from being paniced into accepting government ownership of the means of production as a way to keep economic cycles from happening. It won't work anyway.

Thanks for being part of the discussion. I welcome your input,
NDG
 

jst5150

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The fact that three or four--or even five, six, or seven--mega-banks have a temporary liquidity problem should not justify the drastic means of a Federal partial take-over of the banks. Hence, due to this knee-jerk reaction, I propose my amendment. If a crisis of confidence can cause such an over-the-top reaction of the Administration (Paulson and Bush), the Congress, a supposedly neutral institution (Bernanke and the other idiots at the Federal Reserve), the news media (partial contributors to the panic but not the sole cause), and our citizens, then we need some kind of control to keep this type of thing from happening. IMHO. This Constitutional amendment would protect Americans from themselves, from being paniced into accepting government ownership of the means of production as a way to keep economic cycles from happening. It won't work anyway.
For starters, let's call them international banks. And, let's ensure we all understand what the institutions actually are: they're huge corporations that handle not just banking, but investments and much, much more. They are hedged in a number of areas that affect more than just our checkbooks. They're wedged into a myriad of activities to include commodities, futures and more. They are owned and run by not just American-based executives, but by people in Abu Dhabi, London and Singapore.

Now, I'm going to take a little tangent.

Recently, Hugo Chavez nationalized the oil companies in his country. He did this because he felt Venezuela's national interests were best served by taking control of those oil companies and having his government manage and execute the daily business plan. I'm not here to debate Mr. Chavez' politics. Merely saying Mr. Chavez felt the assets were valuable enough to the nation, its solvency and its sovereignity that his government took control of them.

So, if our federal government felt it had to put itself in the position to ensure the solvency and sovereignity of the United States by acquiring these banks, isn't that the right thing to do? In other words, we're so concerned about the importance of these banks to bolstering the solvency of our Federal Reserve System that we take control of them, there are probably bigger reasons. So, let's just call it "nationalizing" them and, yes, we can look at this from the perspective of the Tennessee Valley Authority or whatever.

That is to say, if -- IF -- there's the potential to cause great unreversable harm to the United States, and by nationalizing something -- even in the short term -- would protect the U.S. from that harm, shouldn't it be done? It should. That's why we also have things like martial law if we need it. People can get crazy, too.

So, the amendment handcuffs the people -- the thinkers and leaders we trusted with our votes, the ones with degrees from Harvard and Yale and the Chicago School of Economics and MIT and Penn State and all the others -- who we've entrusted to solve the problems. That why we put these people there in the first place. They are smarter than us and can work these problems out while we're stocking shelves at Pier 1, translating contracts for foreign countries or designing a flow valve for ventilation on a passenger aircraft.

This is not a Constitutional crisis. This is a financial crisis and one that speaks of the same leadership fallacies that came with S & Ls, junk bonds and every other BS pyramid scheme that pops up once every 12 years or so. In addition to what I've said previously, a Constitutional amendment handcuffs the very checks and balances created to ensure the United States remains a world leader and (adds corny side note) a beacon of democracy and entrepeneurial dreamers across the globe.
 
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jst5150

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Sorry, Jason, I'm not buying that. If the problem was cash for liquidity, loan the banks some money at prime or below prime rates. Don't force a Federal government ownership position to happen as a means of infusing that cash.

First the banks, then the railroads. Then the trucking industry. Then who knows what. A crisis does not justify forced government ownership of private businesses. IMHO.
Missed this the first time through.

This is what I like to call the nuclear war scenario. That is, everything little action can be traced to the start of the apocalypse. It speaks a little of my own teenage paranoia and fright over the Cold War. But that said ...

"First the banks, then the rail roads ..." Well, specifically, Warren Buffet's buying up all the railroads. We're good there. ;)

But more broadly, this is an untenable scenario. It wouldn;t get through the first committee vetting in the House of Reps and it certainly wouldn't pass bicameral muster. The government's not going to start buying things up based on fraility. Besides, it let Lehman die. Wachovia got sucked up by Wells fargo. There are dozens of other examples here.

Again, I point to OVERSIGHT as one of the primary reasons here. GOV provides the oversight until these mega-banks right themselves. I'd wager a scheckel or two that soon after, the banks are then sold back to private industry and on we go. Or some other variation of the above. Either way, th government acts as a steward for the banks until they right themselves. And the, we're done with them.

However, like anything and everything else American, there are a lot of variables here.
 

Norman D Gutter

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Jason:

I'm all in favor of oversight. I think this is one of Congress's biggest failures, providing oversight in many areas.

As to "this is an untenable scenario. It would't get through the first committee vetting in the House....", I would have said that two weeks ago about the Federal government forcing banks to sell them some preferred stocks as the means to infuse some liquidity into them. But they did it, apparently under the authority of the recently passed credit crisis act. So I don't agree that the House would prevent what I fear. To protect us from the failures of the House, and the Senate, and the Administration, and the Supreme Court, I really feel like we need this amendment, something close to it at least. We the people seem to have too much of a herd mentality, too much of a running to government to wipe our nose everytime we catch cold, to do without it [this amendment, that is].

I suspect we will disagree, and that's fine. I appreciate you being in the discussion for several posts.

NDG
 
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Priene

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Jason:

I'm all in favor of oversight. I think this is one of Congress's biggest failures, providing oversight in many areas.

I'll agree with you this far.

To protect us from the failures of the House, and the Senate, and the Administration, and the Supreme Court

The failure first and foremost was by the banks themselves. The US Governments made bad matters worse when it let Lehman Brothers go under. This is elementary economics. Banking is based on lending and borrowing, and that in turn relies on confidence. The moment confidence in a bank goes, it's done for, as we've seen in a simply stunning way.


We the people seem to have too much of a herd mentality, too much of a running to government to wipe our nose everytime we catch cold, to do without it.

This isn't a cold. This is septicaemia. Banks are chained together like moutaineers. Once a couple go, the whole lot can go, including ones you wouldn't believe were in any danger. Germany's banking system is near collapse, and they're arch-conservative compared with US and UK banks.

This US administration is anything but socialist. I'm a socialist of sorts, and believe me, shovelling hundreds of billions into Wall Street isn't socialism. This was an act of self-preservation. Much as I dislike the thought of that money going to organisations who by their own massive incompetence deserve to go under, it's what was necessary to save the banking system.
 

maestrowork

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I do think the banking system is a special case, and that's why you're seeing a global crisis because the financial WORLD is so linked together. It's a house of cards. I mean, if Microsoft or Wall-Mart went under, I couldn't see the Feds coming in for the rescue.

But could this set the precedent? What is next?

Personally I hardly think the US is in any danger of becoming socialist. However, there is a whole lot of issues when the Feds are now owning a big part of our financial system. What are the conditions? What are the oversights? What are the terms? And time frames? What are the steps taken to make sure this doesn't happen again? I think these are the details that Americans -- and the global market -- need to know to really calm things down.
 

Norman D Gutter

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...if Microsoft or Wall-Mart went under, I couldn't see the Feds coming in for the rescue.

But could this set the precedent? What is next?
I'm not sure I'm willing to take that risk. Yes, this could set the precedent.

Personally I hardly think the US is in any danger of becoming socialist. However, there is a whole lot of issues when the Feds are now owning a big part of our financial system. What are the conditions? What are the oversights? What are the terms? And time frames? What are the steps taken to make sure this doesn't happen again? I think these are the details that Americans -- and the global market -- need to know to really calm things down.
Let's see:

- the Federal government attempts to guarantee our retirement through Social Security.

- the Federal government seeks to control normal economic ups and downs through interest rate manipulation and money supply; ETA oh, and stimulous spending.

- the Federal government tries to eliminate poverty by a war on it, massive re-distribution of wealth via confiscatory taxes.

- the Federal government has just decided to prevent mega-bank failures through this credit stabliization act, and by forcing banks to accept the government as a stockholder whether they wanted/needed that or not.

- the Federal government, if John McCain gets his way, will become the guarantor of the price of houses through creating an artificial demand by buying $300 billion of worthless loans (and what an oxymoron "buying worthless loans is").

- the Federal government, if Barrak Obama gets his way, will become the guarantor of our health, to the greatest extent anyone can guarantee health.

All of these are socialist programs. It seems to me we are pretty much there (i.e. socialism), and are fooling ourselves by calling it something else.

Hence, my proposal for this amendment. I'm just afraid our people are too far into the Nanny State to ever turn back.

NDG
 
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Norman D Gutter

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Priene:

Nice to see you in this forum.

The failure first and foremost was by the banks themselves. The US Governments made bad matters worse when it let Lehman Brothers go under. This is elementary economics. Banking is based on lending and borrowing, and that in turn relies on confidence. The moment confidence in a bank goes, it's done for, as we've seen in a simply stunning way.
I agree with you that the mega-banks themselves have a huge culpability here. But so does the Congress for failing to arrange for adequate oversight. So possibly does the Administration for failing to adequately provide whatever limited oversight they were supposed to provide. So too is the press for fanning the flames of panic. So too are our people who, it would seem, can no longer stomach the course of normal economic cycles.

But perhaps it will always be this way. At present it is the banks. What will be next? I believe our people are far, far down the road of expecting the Federal government to be able to fix every problem. This amendment would perhaps, in some small way, prevent us from asking the Federal government from doing more than it should.

This isn't a cold. This is septicaemia. Banks are chained together like moutaineers. Once a couple go, the whole lot can go, including ones you wouldn't believe were in any danger. Germany's banking system is near collapse, and they're arch-conservative compared with US and UK banks.
A cold, or blood poisoning, is a matter of degree. The president, the secretary of the treasury, the Congressional heads of banking committees, the media, and the teetering banks themselves have done all they can to convince us this was a fatal disease in the banks. Why should I believe them? Why should I believe Barney Frank et. al. who just two years ago blocked strickter oversight of Freddie and Fanny? Why should I believe Christopher Dodd, who accepted more contributions from Freddie-Fannie than any other member of Congress? Why would most people believe Bush on this, when they haven't/don't believe him on anything else? Why would anyone believe Paulson, who let Lehman--his former competitor go down, but helped Goldman Sachs--his former employer?

It's to protect us from these types of "public servants", and to protect us from stampeding when faced with crisis, that I propose this amendment. If the Federal government can't step in and buy up teetering businessses to save them, maybe those businesses will treat their business more seriously. As it is, having Rich Uncle Government waiting in the wings, dying to turn tax money into equity in a business, is a negative influence on responsible running of businesses.

This US administration is anything but socialist. I'm a socialist of sorts, and believe me, shovelling hundreds of billions into Wall Street isn't socialism. This was an act of self-preservation. Much as I dislike the thought of that money going to organisations who by their own massive incompetence deserve to go under, it's what was necessary to save the banking system.
Maybe "shovelling hundreds of billions into Wall Street" isn't socialism, but the Federal government purchasing ownerships in banks is. We'll just have to disagree on this point.

Thanks for joining the discussion.
NDG
 

maestrowork

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Like I said, we already have socialist programs, but that doesn't make us socialist. And it also doesn't mean it can't go the other way -- the privatization of the USPS, for example.

And what is the alternative? Are we to say, by nature of this amendment, abolish any socialistic/government programs? Get rid of social security, Medicare, public schools, public transportations, work programs?

As for McCain vs. Obama -- the difference is I don't see "loans and mortgages" as a right. If you can't afford to buy a house or an HDTV, don't. That works in the framework of capitalism. So McCain's $300B plan doesn't make sense.

But I do see health as a right. Are you going to say to someone, a child, that "if you can't afford to buy healthcare, don't live"? Healthcare, like education -- to me -- is a social issue, and I don't necessarily mind a socialistic approach. Buying and selling healthcare as a commodity just doesn't jive with me.

The banking problem, on the other hand, is more complicated than I can articulate here, so I won't even try. To me, a global collapse of the financial system affects everything. I'm already feeling the credit crunch even through no fault of my own. A local plant just closed its door because they couldn't afford the payroll. Now, whether buying out the failing banks is the solution -- I honestly don't know. But I think that's why we need more discussions and information.
 

Norman D Gutter

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As for McCain vs. Obama -- the difference is I don't see "loans and mortgages" as a right. If you can't afford to buy a house or an HDTV, don't. That works in the framework of capitalism. So McCain's $300B plan doesn't make sense.
We absolutely agree on that, Ray, on both the personal responsibility angle and government angle. Why would you pay $300B for something you describe as "worthless"? That's why McCain has lost my vote. If he's that far down the path, I don't have a dog in the hunt, and I can't vote for the other dog (pun intended).

NDG
 

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The banks sold to the Government because they had no choice. They were bankrupt. They were going under and with it they would have dragged the whole capitalist system with it. A bank is not like a company that sells chemicals or any other type of widget. It's reaches and its implications go right through the whole economy.

If the federal government simply sat back and let happen what was going to happen, it would be the end of The United States as a world power. It would be the end of the Iraq war because the Government would have no tax revenues to fight it and they wouldn't be unable to borrow the money they need to continue to fight it.

Why should the government and you the tax payer give the banks your money and get nothing in return for it? Nothing of value? That's why the government demanded perferred shares.

Let's be clear. The government didn't go to the banks and demand that the banks give up their businesses. The banking and financial system went to the government and said, "We screwed the pooch and now we need SERIOUS help." The government said, "We don't want to help you, but we can see that we have no choice."

Let me give you an example of what happens when the government gives private business money without conditions, which is what you are advocating with a "loan".

It is instructive here to look in the past. At Rockerfeller and the Chase-Manhatten bank and the railroads in the 60's. Rockerfeller owned all of the railroad companies that ran in the east at the time. And he also owned The Chase-Manhatten Bank. And he had the Chase-Manhatten give HUGE loans to all of the railroads he owned. And they went on a huge land buying spree. In fact, Rockerfeller had his bank loan the railroads so much money that he knew they could never possibly repay the loans. He essentiallly intentionally forced them into bankrupcy. Now why would he do such a thing, you may ask? Well, nothing moves without the railway. No steel, no cars, no food, no gas, nothing. Everything must move by rail. The railroad is the artery of the country. ANd Rockerfeller knew that. And he turned to the Federal Government and told them the railways were broke, that they couldn't repay their loans and unless the Federal Government paid the loans, the railroads were going to shut down. Obviously, no government could allow that to happen. So the Government paid the loans for the railroad to The Chase-Manhatten Bank. And Rockerfeller said, "Thank you very much."

This is what Rockerfeller referred to as "a cost plus relationship with society."

The railroads expanded their land holdings and increased their net worth. The Chase Manhatten Bank made money by loaning out money and getting paid back by the government and all at the taxpayers' expense. And Rockerfeller owned all of it.

Is this what the government should be doing?