Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 2

I have committed prologue.

Same main character as the main novel. Near in time to the main novel. Connected to the main novel. But not essential to the main novel. (If it were essential, it would have been chapter one.)

Then why's it there, Jim? What's your intention? And how unusual it is for you to include a prologue?

Why's it there? Beats hell out of me. I was young. I've learned better since. Prologues are unusual for me, and have grown rarer as I've gone along.

If I were doing it again today, I'd have started the book with Chapter One and sold the prologue to a magazine as a stand-alone short story.

James D. Macdonald said:

I have committed prologue.

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GASP! DISMAY!

James D. Macdonald said:

If I were doing it again today, I'd have started the book with Chapter One and sold the prologue to a magazine as a stand-alone short story.

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That seems like a very good argument for not including prologues in novels... why sell one story when you can sell two .

movieman said:

That seems like a very good argument for not including prologues in novels... why sell one story when you can sell two .

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Well, there's an alternate way of looking at it: Might as well get the rejection over in one swoop.

blacbird said:

GASP! DISMAY!

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A lot of what you'll find me putting in this thread is stuff that I've learned the hard way.

movieman said:

That seems like a very good argument for not including prologues in novels... why sell one story when you can sell two .

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Except that some stories are better and more effective with a prologue.

Prologues are a tool. In the hands of a master, they are a powerful tool. The trick is to use them properly.

I know I asked the question, but the definitions given seem to fit into two categories, prologues that shouldn't be written and prologues that are redundant. Calling them a first chapter would still make them unnecessary.


What makes for a good prologue?

A good prologue is:

A) Brief
B) Entertaining
C) Does not confuse the reader
D) Still leaves a complete experience if it's skipped

Check the prologues in Romeo and Juliet, and in Doctor Faustus.

James D. Macdonald said:

A good prologue is:

A) Brief
B) Entertaining
C) Does not confuse the reader
D) Still leaves a complete experience if it's skipped

Check the prologues in Romeo and Juliet, and in Doctor Faustus.

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I was just about to recommend the prologue in The Name of the Wind, but I'm not sure that it passes the "D" test. Maybe I should say, it would leave the reader with a different complete experience?

(BTW, I'm still shopping that mystery around: `til Hell won't have it!)

A different complete experience, yes. But still complete.

In contrast, if someone skipped chapter one, or the last chapter, or any chapter, the experience would be incomplete.

James D. Macdonald said:

A different complete experience, yes. But still complete.

In contrast, if someone skipped chapter one, or the last chapter, or any chapter, the experience would be incomplete.

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I know this is bold and daring, but I think I disagree. For the prologue to be a good prologue, it would need to be necessary to a complete experience. Skipping the prologue would give the reader a satisfying experience, but would not be the complete
Let's take a story with say a demon. The prologue might open with interaction with a demon and an angel that results in our hero. Without the opening, the story is a complete experience. It would make no difference if the angel and demon created a demon. We often don't know much about the conception of our hero, but the story would be fuller and complete with the understanding that the hero was from two worlds, especially if the epilogue restores the angel and demon to God's graces through the actions in the story.

You're basically saying the same thing, just disagreeing over the exact phrasing used to describe it.

allenparker said:

I know this is bold and daring, but I think I disagree. For the prologue to be a good prologue, it would need to be necessary to a complete experience.

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I'm not so sure; going back to the Clive Cussler example, in, say, 'Raise the Titanic' (which was a huge seller when I was a kid, maybe it wouldn't be as successful today) the prologue was essentially a separate story about how the Unobtanium got to the Titanic.

All that you really needed to know in the main story was that Unobtanium was extremely important and they discovered records indicating that the only known supply in the world sank with the Titanic, but the story of the miners escaping from Russia and getting to the ship was interesting in its own right. It added to the experience, but you could skip it and still understand the story and get 99% of the experience of the novel... if it wasn't there, no-one would have noticed it was missing.

I'm trying to remember whether they included the prologue in the movie; I think they cut it out, but they screwed up so many things in the adaption that I can't really tell whether that was a bad idea .

To me, reading a prologue which was essential to the experience of the main story would leave me wondering why they'd put it in as a prologue and not chapter one. In movies, the beginning of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' could be considered a prologue in a way because none of the action in that sequence has any effect on the rest of the movie; but it sets up enough about the characters that it's essential to later plot points and would be chapter one in a novelisation and not a prologue.

Uh, well I presume it would be, I've never read the novelisation if there is one.

movieman said:

Uh, well I presume it would be, I've never read the novelisation if there is one.

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Of course there was a novelization. Ballantine Books, 1981, by Campbell Black.

And movie novelizations are pretty good gigs for writers who can produce prose to order by deadline. Around a thousand bucks a day.

James D. Macdonald said:

Better Book Titles

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I laughed at the Strunk and White better book title. But then, I peeked in to the grammar and syntax forum here earlier today. There are some fierce arguments going on in there!

movieman said:

To me, reading a prologue which was essential to the experience of the main story would leave me wondering why they'd put it in as a prologue and not chapter one. In movies, the beginning of 'Raiders of the Lost Ark' could be considered a prologue in a way because none of the action in that sequence has any effect on the rest of the movie; but it sets up enough about the characters that it's essential to later plot points and would be chapter one in a novelisation and not a prologue.

Uh, well I presume it would be, I've never read the novelisation if there is one.

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Raiders is a great example of what I mean. It was necessary to the full experience. Without the prologue, you wouldn't get the feel of Dr. Jones from the start. It wouldn't have the contrast of the professor in class. You wouldn't find his fear of snakes until too late int he story. Lastly, you would have a hard time believing the stunts at the middle and end of the story.

A better example might be the opening of Benchley's The Island. He presents a group of pirates early on, then lets the story unfold around an article a reporter reads about missing boats. He could have left it out and the reader would have a satisfying story, but the beginning gives the reader a fuller experience. I don't remember if he called it a prologue or chapter one, but I considered it to be a prologue styled first part of the book.

I guess this is where I struggle.

Maybe we do need to find a copy of the Raiders novelisation and see whether that was prologue or chapter one .

Sticking with movies: The voice-over prologue in Dark City utterly ruins the movie. You'd be well-advised to turn off the sound until the camera pans upward and you get to the actual opening titles.

Many prologues, I feel, are bleed-over from movies and TV, where the show starts with an action teaser (e.g. the perfectly unnecessary chase scene that starts Speed II: Cruise Control (an execrable movie for lots of other reasons)). In movies they're there to give folks time to get in from the candy counter and still not miss anything essential. On TV they're there to get folks to sit down and watch the first set of commercials. Books don't have either of those needs.

Brief, interesting on its own, non-distracting from the main story (note that in Raiders of the Lost Ark that the opening focuses on Dr. Jones, not on Some Random Guy), and dispensable. That's how I think of prologues.

But ... if you want to, and you're doing it well, and your editor goes along with it, there's no reason you shouldn't commit prologue. I've done it, I'll do it again, and you can too.

James D. Macdonald said:

Sticking with movies: The voice-over prologue in Dark City utterly ruins the movie.

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Yeah, I agree: I thought that was a particularly bad one. I have a feeling that it wasn't in the Director's Cut version I have on Blu-Ray, but I watched it quite a while ago so I'm not certain of that.

Woo... I finally finished reading through both threads; felt like taking an advanced writing course in two weeks. Thanks for all the time you've put into posting here over the years, I wish I'd found these threads long ago.

I did look for your books when I was in the bookstore last night, but didn't spot any; I just realised I should have looked under Doyle as well as Macdonald, that seems to be where they're catalogued on the bookstore web site. I've got a couple on order from the library instead.

Found on AW's front page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fc-crEFDw

Yes, our books are shelved under Doyle (my beloved bride and long-time writing partner).

We decided long ago to go that way, because it would get our books closer to the eye-level shelves.

James D. Macdonald said:

Found on AW's front page:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9fc-crEFDw

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(Sadly, I have at one time or another entertained nearly every idea expressed by Mr. Bear)