Learn Writing with Uncle Jim, Volume 1

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johnbaern

Re: Ellipses

I device that I use alot is a two-period ellipsis. This.. as you can see.. indicates pause. Three- or four-period ellipses.... omitted words.

John
 

jpwriter

Re: Ellipses

The Chicago Manual of Style (15th ed.) apparently has changed this.
"6.90 Indicating sudden breaks. An em dash or a pair of em dashes may indicate a sudden break in thought or sentence structure or an interuption in dialogue. (Ellipsis points my also serve this purpose; see 11.45)"

"11.45 Faltering or interrupted speech. Ellipsis points may be used to suggest faltering or fragmented speech accompanied by confusion or insecurity. In the examples below, .... (For ellipsis points used to represent omitted text, see 11.51-65.)"

Jerry
 

SRHowen

I am old school---

LOL I use the dashes--a lot, just in case no one noticed.

The use of . . two periods is not correct. And editor would have you make them three.

Also it is "Words. . . ." or in a sentence; I saw them together . . . you know. . . . I see this incorrect so often, more than three in the middle or less than three, a space after the word before the first period in the end of sentence use, or the last two on top of each other. Word and many other programs auto correct them to be right next to each other. Turn it off--mono spaced is the key.

Shawn
 

qatz

Re: I am old school---

Personally, Shawn, I go a lot by sound, and it seems to me (as with Jim's different shades of gray) that there is a slightly different meaning, that is, a different feeling, in the dash and the ellipsis. I don't know ... maybe I'm a fool ... but the main point should be, as I think we all agree, the meaning of the phrase -- whatever that may be. Part of that meaning is the non-verbal sense that the structure is meant to convey.

As you can tell, I'm a bit of a stylistic troglodyte when it comes to the construction of ellipses, but will defer to Shawn and anyone else. James, this is a situation where I just say, it's the dictionary's word against mine. Having lost both my S&W and the Chicago Manual, maybe I should spend this afternoon looking for new ones. Thanks ...
 

SRHowen

--

I don't disagree with you there--I use both. Was only pointing out that if you use . . . 's to please use them correctly. Same with the dashes don't let your program make them into em dashes.

Shawn
 

jpwriter

Re: I am old school---

Just a point of curiosity. Wouldn't the use be put to two tests. One, will the editors let it be printed. Two, which would the readers read easiest or more clearly. (by reader I mean the ultimate end user, the book buyer)
I have been learning a lot about usage on various post lately and it (just now) (at this time) (suddenly) (dropped on me like a bombshell) (now) occurred to me to wonder if these various preferences are primarily reader driven, editor driven or writer driven.

Disclaimer: The above post is a serious question with humor injected in parentheses. Anyone that reads more into this post including, but not limited to, the disclaimer, he or she does so at his or her own risk and this poster is not responsible in any way for his or her mental or spiritual condition because of reading said post.
 

qatz

Re: I am old school---

I think you are a hoot, Jerry--a real hoot--but, after all . . . that's just me.
 

reph

Chicago says that?

I'm shocked and dismayed at Chicago's new ruling on ellipses. No wonder the reviewers of the 15th edition have said some uncomplimentary things about it!
 

qatz

Re: Chicago says that?

If it's okay for me to follow the 15th edition, Reph, it's okay for you to say "It's that edition's word against mine!" 8)
 

Salve Ghostwalker

Re: Elipsis - elipses? - those dots

Karen R. writes:

>>> Personally, if you use elipses (elipsis?) more than once in a book, you run the risk of having your character sound inane, idiotic, helpless, and weak. <<<

The risk? I may WANT my character to sound inane, idiotic, helpless, and weak. I don't want my main character coming off that way, but I may need a minor character to sound hesitant and unsure of himself.

Punctuation is a tool. I wouldn't use a jackhammer to remove putty from a window pane, but I would use one to remove an old cement step. The complexity and structure of the story dictates punctuation. You'd have a tough time selling a literary story which only used simple punctuation marks. Readers of literary fiction know what to do when they encounter a semicolon, ellipsis, or dash, and they don't scream when they encounter parenthesis. They expect writers to use a variety of punctuation marks.

If we, as writers, only needed periods, commas, and question marks, the other punctuation marks wouldn't exist. This goes for the exclamation mark as well. There's nothing wrong with an exclamation mark, as long as it's at the end of an exclamation. "Screw you.", "Screw you!", and "Screw ... you." have different intensities and differ in emphasis. Making that distinction is part of a writer's job description.
 

Duane

My presence

Perhaps I should take a moment to explain my presence.

I work as a mechanical design engineer. I enjoy working in this
field and have no intention of leaving it any timesoon. However, one should be prepared for plan B. The manfacturing world, in terms of job security, is less than acceptable.

Stay with me, i'm about to make some sense of this. But first I must digress a moment.

A couple of months ago I was at the beach. An elderly couple was walking past me, holding hands, as confident a couple as I have ever seen. And, for unknown reasons, triggered a thought process. That process brought me to a few conclussions.

1. One can, and should, pursue a hobby that is financially rewarding first and emotionally rewarding second. Meaning, if you cannot get some financial return from it, discard it.
(I do expect a beating for this one)

2. Pursue said hobby until you have mastered it. Now you can call it a career.

3. There are no limits as to how many careers you may pursue, provided you have capacity to learn the ones you choose.

Which brings me here. I've decided to take up writing, confident in my ability to learn. At some point in time I will master it. I don't expect that to happen overnight. In fact, I have no time constraints. My comfort zone for actual writing will occur when i'm confident that I can write ten complete sentences (an effort to avoid the "slush pile").

I'm posting this to make everyone aware of my rookie status and how reached this point.

Thanks to all for helping me to expidite the learning process.
A special thanks to Jim for being "logical."
 

Note On

Dashes--and ellipses...and semicolons; oh my!

I've really been trying to sit on my hands. Honest. But this is making me nuts.

Dashes and ellipses ain't the same thing, and don't serve the same functions.

A dash at the end of a line is an abrupt breaking-off, as though the speaker's attention is suddenly--

Ellipses are trail-offs, as though the speaker forgets to...

Dashes are also used parenthetically--like this--but can also replace a colon--thusly. When typing, they're indicated by the use of two hyphens, no space on either side.

Ellipses are also used to show pauses in speech...as though...someone...is realizing...something...or...exerting himself...or dying...or...anything else...that would cause...hesitation.

Dashes can also be--used to show--broken speech--as per--the Chicago Manual--but look how different--the effect is. (This would be read more as a series of break-offs than a series of trail-offs, and is not usually done. More often, it would be used to show an aside--like this aside, for instance--which you can see is clearly related to a breaking-off.)

Semicolons and dashes are probably the two that are closest in functionality, but even there, there's a difference; a semicolon can imply that what follows it is a logical conclusion of what precedes it. There's a setup/payoff implied. That doesn't necessarily happen with a dash.

Semicolons are also used for basic parsing of information when there are lots of commas, or as a "soft period."

Just as dictionaries cover denotation, but not necessarily connotation, style manuals cover basic usage, but not necessary subtleties. If the Chicago manual is truly saying don't use ellipses for pauses, it's wrong--and it's three dots when it follows a fragment, and four when it follows a sentence, but nobody even begins to care about this until you get into copy-editing. Using three where it should be four doesn't mark you as an amateur. Your editor may not even know--but your copy editor should.
 

qatz

Re: Dashes--and ellipses...and semicolons; oh my!

Interesting contribution, Note On, and I think you're right. It appears the 15th edition of the Chicago Manual agrees with you (and me and a few others) regarding what you say. Time for me to go now.
 

reph

Punctuation

Note On and Qatz and bystanders,

The Chicago manual is mainly a guide for writing and editing books of the kind that the University of Chicago Press publishes--that is, academic nonfiction. It tells how to punctuate correctly, not how to punctuate expressively. Style in the latter sense isn't its territory.

I could say more about this issue, but--
 

James D Macdonald

Question

What's with the pulsing "EZ" graphic that suddenly showed up on some (but not all) topics on the board?
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Answer

It indicates a 'hot topic'.

Oh, okay. Never noticed before. What are the criteria, I wonder?

==========

ObOnTopic: I always spell out "okay" rather than use the letters "OK."
 

aka eraser

Re: Answer

One of the criteria might be me doing the occasional walk-by while wearing my Speedo.

<eraser ducks the rotten tomatoes and scampers to safety>

:grin
 

Duane

My guess

My guess would be that it has something to do with the frequency of the replies to the topic.

Duane
 

Duane

Jim

Jim,

I have a couple of questions regarding something curious to me. Of course, you need not answer, should you find them trivial or off topic. I try to stay on topic, but....

Are you allowed in the "learn writing without uncle Jim" thread?

Wouldn't somebody be learning from you if you posted (advice)there? Because then someone would learn "with uncle Jim".

Are you really an uncle?

I had an aunt Helen once. We weren't related...everybody referred to her as "aunt Helen". I have no idea why.

Curious,
Duane
 

James D Macdonald

Re: Jim

Are you allowed in the "learn writing without uncle Jim" thread?

I suppose technically I am, but I doubt it would be polite for me to post there.

Are you really an uncle?

Yes, and so is my brother.
 

Note On

Re: Jim

> I doubt it would be polite for me to post there

It looked to me like a way to continue conversations that were impolite in your thread; I don't think excluding you was the intent.
 

qatz

Re: Question

Well, sheesh. That's what I get for arguing with the Queen. I check a random number of threads and only the ones over 25 were having that flashing thing, so it seems to be that rather than activity. Shoulda listened to Jenna when I had the chance. Oh well, you're still invited out here milady as soon as I can rent you a palace that befits your circumstance (which may require a few more ships to come in). The rest I leave in Reph's capable but not easily swayed hands . . .
 
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