The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

Re: Wonder how long this PA thread will remain posted?

...and to my knowledge the book isn't POD, but when you get right down to it, I don't think any publisher just prints up hundreds of thousands of one book and sits on them....

The PA book is PoD, in that they print them up after the order comes in. They say this right on their webpage -- what does anyone think PoD is? When PublishAmerica claims they aren't a PoD, they're lying.

In fact, all legitimate publishers print up thousands of books at once. They don't just sit on them, though. They ship them to bookstores, to sell to the general public. Those that don't sell, the bookstores can return for credit. That way the bookstores are willing to order up bunches of the books; they know they won't be stuck with unsalable stock.

That's the difference between traditional publishers and the vanity PoDs like PA.

Re: Wonder how long this PA thread will remain posted?

That is what the contract said, I copied it word for word. In #1 it does state in any country they want to put the book. All rights. I'd like to see someone who has the emails to prove all PA promised, and can afford a lawyer take them down too.
#29 states, (word for word)
All unresolved disputes and controversies of any kind and nature within the scope of this agreement(whether arising from fraud, mistake, questions, of the existence, validity, construction, performance,nonperformance, operation or breach) shall be submitted to an arbitrator selected in accordance with the voluntary labor arbitration rules of the american arbitration association. The arbitration shall be conducted in the city of Frederick, Maryland in accordance with the Arbitration rules and the decision of the arbitrator shall be final and binding on the parties to the preceeding, subject only to the right of judicial relief as prescribes by law. This agreement shall be governed and construed in accordance with the laws of the state of maryland. Author and Publisher irrevocably submit to the jurisdiction of any maryland state or federal court sitting in the city of frederick over any suit related to this agreement.

Re: Wonder how long this PA thread will remain posted?

I have been following these threads for sometime now. So please excuse the venting, but maybe a few authors will think twice before using PA. For all those authors that believe PA is GodÕs answer to authors, remember PT Barnum appropriate quote, "There is a sucker born every minute." If you care not to advance your writing or want to brag, "IÕm a publish author," then stay on the PA team where you are welcomed into the commune as long as you keep filling Willem MeinerÕs pockets.

Seventy percent of the authors at PA will not use them again, 10% donÕt give a damn, and the other 20% continently lie about how quick their writing careers are advancing. One author had the guts to flaunt on the Internet that Fox and Time Warner requested his screenplay based on a book that PA published in February. Just to get in the door at either you got to have a high profile agent. And if you got that, then you sure as hell donÕt need PA as a publisher. Hello!! Some of us did not go to school just to learn how to eat lunch.

Yes IÕm lashing out against PA, because I have earned the right to when I got locked into two contracts before my first book was sold and I like so many, thought, a couple of years ago, they were a traditional publisher.

Beside PAÕs cut and paste editing where they butchered my manuscript, refuse to correct it like they said they would and sold my book without my final approval.

But the biggie was six months later, I caught PA red-handed trying to steal over $400 on royalties owed to me. After 4 months of e-mail and letter bombardment (including several certified with threats to call the Federal Trade Commission) and phone calls, which I was hung up on, I finally got a check. But it was 25% short, due to the fact, I sold enough to bump me to their next royalty level and they refuse to cut loose the extra 2%. Weeks later, I get this rude letter where they cancelled my first contract, using the contract clause, Ônot enough public interest.Õ And a week later my second, quoting, I was Ôdelaying publication,Õ when I refuse to accept their editing.

Instead of wasting another stamp to get my remaining 25%, I follow through with my threat, and filled a complaint with the Federal Trade Commission and sent them all my documentation. Bluntly, why would ANY author do business, let alone defend any publisher who got caught stealing.

I still wonder how many books I really sold, but I really wonder how many other authors have they suckered, lied, bamboozle and ripped off in books. I read the threads of those poor souls at PA wondering how many books they sold. Most of the PA authors THINK, they make royalties whatever they buy. They better read their contract. PA does not give royalties on author buys, but they sure make you believe you will. If enough people start filing complaints, PA will be shut down. But the problem, everyone likes to bitch, but step up to the mound, is another story.

To get out of your contract from PA start e-mailing and writing (the same) letters to Willem Meiners and C. Comer (once a week and be a pest) and number each one at the heading, request #2, #3. #4, etc.

Then asked , "Due to the amount of bad PR I have been hearing and reading about PA, what guarantees me that PA is still going to be still in business two years from now?" And at the same time, tell them they are in breached of their contract for failing to provide editing and send them a bill if you paid someone to review after you got your proofs and flood them with letters that YOU DO NOT ACCEPT THE WORK. And if the book is published, you will file a claim with the FTC for fraud based on the quality clause in their contract and most important, breach of BAD Faith. It worked for me with no attorney fees, when both book rights were returned. Now I have two books under consideration by two major publishers.



PA will sucker you with more harm than good. But most important, PA discourages lot of good authors into thinking this is how ALL publishers operate and at the same time, give egos to their commune authors WHO HONESTY BELIEVE they are the next Hemingway or Clancy.

Thanks everyone for letting me vent.

Re: Wonder how long this PA thread will remain posted?

Somebody Is Slamming PA

I believe this is the “slam” in question: IMDB


This is just a message that made me go “huh?”:

My Letter From JK Rowlings Agent

I admire the agent’s professionalism.

Mildly interesting

I noticed from HB's remark that he appears to have received his monthly pep talk from PA and is pushing their agenda once more with enthusiasm.

I chuckled over the remark by another individual that P&E is promoting PA. I only wish I could reveal which authors have written me to express that they wished they had first believed the warnings on P&E instead of going forward with PA.

Re: Somebody is slamming PA

Geez. It's only 1:04 pm. Way too early for a drink. I've got to read those PA posts later in the day.

Re: Mildly interesting

hey, don't worry - HB's getting the third book in his mega-epic published and he's working on the fourth!

*chuckles*

guess he gave up on getting legitimately published...

so it goes...

Re: Mildly interesting

I have a confession to make: I’m addicted to the psychology of it all.

Jealous People

Re: Mildly interesting

true - there is a certain attraction, like watching a car wreck.

I mean, here are all these people bragging about how they're now too famous for their friends to stand it - when what's probably happened is that either their friends did the research and found out the truth about PA and are embarassed for their pals or actually READ the book and don't want to tell them how bad the actual work is.

sad, either way.

what I"m constantly surprised at is the ignorance of those rushing in to brag about their books - it's like they've never picked up a copy of The Writer or Writer's Digest or even surfed around the Web more than to PA's home page and back out again.

but, as Jim M. said previously, they're hobby writers - they'll be the big cheese in their local town for a few weeks and then wander off, wondering why their royalty checks won't pay for a dinner at McDonald's and planning to mortage their homes for some publicist's dream date.

so it goes...

Re: Mildly interesting

>>I mean, here are all these people bragging about how they're now too famous for their friends to stand it - when what's probably happened is that either their friends did the research and found out the truth about PA and are embarassed for their pals or actually READ the book and don't want to tell them how bad the actual work is.<<

Actually, it's like one of the messages said--most people just don't care.

I'll be honest and confess that I went through the "now I'm published, everyone will be so proud of/impressed by/interested in me" thing when I sold my first book. It took me very little time to realize that it wasn't so. I moped for a little while, and then got over it.

When the book came out, a couple of local papers did "new author" articles on me. Both included pictures, and I was convinced that I was going to be recognized in the grocery store or on the street by my fans. What actually happened was that I got several obscene phone calls. It really put things in perspective. If I ever feel my head swelling, I remind myself of that.

- Victoria

Re: The book in question

hey got a question. Someone over at mindsight ask about the former cover, that is being discussed. He wanted to see it. I suggested that he check blackwells, the uk site. My book has vanished. Does that not seem odd to you? That something is up? Got any ideas? I found my cover changed on PAs site, but nowhere else.

ACtually I was recognized

After our first two books were published (by John Wiley & Sons NOT PublishAmerica) our local paper did a very nice story on us with photos. I write with a co-author, Brian Hill.

For a couple of months afterwards, we were recognized at the grocery store and Target by complete strangers. It was fun and very surprising. Next time I'm handing out bookmarks.

Dee
www.BrianHillAndDeePower.com

Re: ACtually I was recognized

That is what I had hoped for, when I made my mistake. Now my hopes lie with a different publisher. I really want to do booksignings, and be reconized for my work. I guess we all do. But I am working hard to make this my year, with my other books. For a time, I lost confidence in my own talent. Feeling maybe I shouldn't write at all. My critics sure told me that. But with two books completed, and one under consideration, and another one just sent to a publisher I am looking forward to what I should have had with this first one.
A lesson learned the hard way, and costly. I am glad that you are doing well with your writing.

PA is what it is

I have been reading these boards for the last few days and feel compelled to post as well.

I know nothing about PA except what I have read on these boards and am in no way endorsing their business practices or anything else about them.

I have not read every post on this subject, but based on what I have read it appears to me that the real professional writers on this board as well as the writer advocates seem to be overlooking the obvious. You are so focused on the PA contract (compared to those at traditional commercial publishers) and the quality of support they provide their writers, that you fail to recognize the quality of their writers.

The bottom line is that the vast, vast, vast majority of the PA writers would never get a publishing deal at ANY traditional publisher, because to be brutally honest they are just not good enough writers. I am not critiquing the talent of any individual writer and I am certain that a small percentage of the PA writers do in fact have talent, but most do not.

PA and the other vanity publishers are the literary world equivalent of a karaoke bar. They offer people the chance to live out their publishing fantasies. To "see their name in lights" so to speak.

This is as close as most of them will ever come to getting published. No amount of marketing dollars would lead to a wider audience for their work outside of family and friends - because only family and friends are interested in really bad writing. If they get to have a professionally bound novel they can give (or sell) to their family and friends and have the opportunity to do a book signing at their local Borders is that really so horrible? It's not like PA is ripping them off for hundreds (or thousands) of dollars - like some of the agent scammers out there. Is $21.95 or however much the books sell for really such a big price to pay for the chance to live out their fantasies?

It appears from these posts that one of your main complaints is that PA builds up their hopes for publishing success. But aren't you also building up their hopes on some level? You talk about marketing, editing, book signings, royalties on net vs. royalties on list price - like these are issues that apply to these writers. What difference does it make what the royalties are on a book that no one is gonna want to read? I believe you sincerely are trying to be helpful, but you are feeding their delusions of grandeur and at the same time taking away the sense of a fulfillment and accomplishment they should be feeling for being in print by focusing on what REAL publishers do for REAL writers.

Sorry to get all "Simon Cowell" on you, but someone needs to point out that the Emperor is naked.

Re: PA is what it is

Who's "Simon Cowell"?

Re: PA is what is

SimonSays:
"I know nothing about PA except what I have read on these boards and am in no way endorsing their business practices or anything else about them. "

Exactly. Therefore, you will not have that knowledge until you've walked in a disgruntle PA author's shoes.


SimonSays:
"The bottom line is that the vast, vast, vast majority of the PA writers would never get a publishing deal at ANY traditional publisher, because to be brutally honest they are just not good enough writers. I am not critiquing the talent of any individual writer and I am certain that a small percentage of the PA writers do in fact have talent, but most do not."

Is this just hearsay or have you taken the time to read a book by ANY PA authors? I'm an avid reader and I've encounter "bad" writing by FAMOUS "top notch" authors. So why lay the blame on the vast, vast, vast majority of PA writers? Just because they're associated with PA? Sounds fair to me! Not taking sides, are you?

SimonSays:
"It appears from these posts that one of your main complaints is that PA builds up their hopes for publishing success. But aren't you also building up their hopes on some level?"

I'm sure all writers (including Bill Clinton) build their hopes up in one way or another.

Simon, last but not by a long shot least, most authors write to tell their story to the world; in hopes of getting their book physically placed in major bookstores, not for it to set in cyberspace g forever.

Since you seem to be so versed on the publishing world and how one should feel when their dreams have been crushed, I'd like to know if you are publsihed author? If so, where may I find your book :hail ?

Re: PA is what it is

The problem with PA isn't that the vast majority of their books are poorly written, it is that they insist they are a traditional publisher, when they are not.

This insistence seems to have gotten much worse since I came on board in 2002. Like most PA authors, I have had difficulties getting my books in stores, getting reviews, etc. Is it because my book sucks? Possibly. I'm aware of that.

What really makes me ill is that many PA authors are not aware of that, because they believe the stuff PA says. Paraphrasing- you are traditionally published, very few people are good enough to be traditionally published, your book has the same chance of being on a bookstore shelf as one published by Random House, etc.

They think their book is well written because a traditional publisher accepted them. If PA didn't insist they were like all other traditional publishers I wouldn't have a problem with them or the poorly written books. Some argue that they wouldn't have the following they have if they didn't lie. Maybe that's true. But as long as authors think, "they aren't making me pay so they aren't a vanity", and they are paying to buy books they may never be able to sell, it's a scam.

darby

Re: PA is what is

Actually, of the PA books I have seen and the excerpts I have read, I believe most of the PA authors probably do have talent. What those I have read lack is skill -- or sufficient skill to turn their ideas and plans into a publishable book. Talent does not create a publishable book, though it does create a book with potential...and PA crushes the potential of the book by publishing it before the author has the skill to take it from "potential" to "submission ready." And PA crushes the potential of many of their own authors by short circuiting the learning curve -- they publish, in effect, the authors' writing exercises and therefore force these folks to move from "learning to write" to "door-to-door salemen." Many never get back properly to the "learning to write" stage.

Now, many of the books probably never would have been traditionally published -- but the authors may have. Most of us end up abandoning our early efforts (whether they show potential or that spark of talent, or not) as we learn. At some point, most of the authors I know are GRATEFUL their first "book" wasn't published -- imagine the embarrassment. We may tell someone, "Oh, yes, my first book was dreadful -- it had potential and it taught me a lot -- but I just couldn't see how dreadful it was." But we rarely trot out the manuscript and show people how much our early efforts sucked in skill.

If outfits like PA didn't short circuit the admittedly long and painful process of learning through the rejection and going back to the drawing board time after time...many of the most determined PA authors would be published. And many would not -- they lack staying power, or the process hurts too much, or they buy into the conspiracy of big publishing that oppresses the talented beginner (there's a concept that is hurting as many writers as PA ever thought of) and they quit. And some of the PA authors really do lack both skill and talent and they would have simply been one of the bizillions of people who wrote one book, got it out of their system, and went to find a new hobby.

At any rate, PA does no one a favor. For those who fit in the third "hobby writer" category, PA gave them a little fun...but at the expense of too many folks who could have gone on to make it in the business if they weren't kicked off the road and into the swamp so early in their journey.

Gran

Re: PA is what it is

Simon's view--"what difference does it make. since none of these folks could get published anyway?"--is one Writer Beware encounters a lot--often from publishing professionals, many of whom have a Darwinian attitude toward the quest for publication, and figure that we all should be happy that outfits like PA are siphoning off the dross. Our reply: Even if this is so, it doesn't make it right to rip people off.

One of the points I periodically try to make about PA is that it offers a worse deal than many of the large POD-based self-publishing companies. No, it doesn't charge upfront. But it does levy a charge on the back end, through high book prices (higher, at longer lengths, even than the high prices from the self-pub companies) and through constant "incentives" for writers to buy their own books (which they're encouraged to believe is what "all writers" do). It ties writers down with a seven-year contract (the average self-pub contract is just one year) and pays pitiful royalties (8% of net, as opposed to around 20% of net from the self-pubs). Sure, if you only sell 150 copies the financial difference is miniscule--but that doesn't make 8% of net any less chintzy. Most PA writers would be better off at iUniverse or Infinity.

Even if every single PA writer were utterly devoid of talent and ability (and I know this is not the case), it still wouldn't be right to hook them into a crappy deal under false pretenses. Which, essentially, is what PA does.

- Victoria

Like Ann stated so eloquently

We're not opposed to the authors who were published by PublishAmerica. P&E's criticism of PA has always been based on PA's claims and how PA treats authors.

Re: PA is what it is

Seriously, PublishAmerica, (as I've said before) is the Fantasy Role-playing Game version of publishing.

That's okay as long as you know that what you're doing is playing the fantasy game. But it crosses the line when it tries to pass itself off as reality.

The guy playing Dungeons&Dragons knows that he isn't really a seven-foot-tall barbarian warrior named Kor, the Civil War recreationist knows that he isn't really a corporal in the 36th Iowa Infantry fighting the battle of Mark's Mill -- he's not going to get killed, no real bullets are involved, and Monday morning he's going back to his job as a computer programmer.

The PublishAmerica victims don't know that they aren't traditionally published authors. "Author" is a high prestige (if often low pay) title. Lots of people want it. When the PA authors find out the truth, they get (understandably) ticked off.

(In the same way, a college degree is high prestige -- and that's why my spam-trap is full of offers to sell me a "degree" from a "prestigious non-accredited university.")

Why do we see the anger here, and other places, against PublishAmerica, when we dont' see it against AuthorHouse, iUniverse, Xlibris and the host of other vanity PoDs? Because those places are up-front about what they are and what they're doing, while PA, doing the same thing, lies about its business model. The PA boards are chock-a-block (until the posts are deleted, the threads killed, and the authors banned) with heartbreaking and despairing posts as authors discover they can't get their books into bookstores, that they can't get their books reviewed, and that they aren't being treated as "published authors" by the professionals.

PA is Lucy and the football to the writers' Charlie Brown.

PA is what it is

No Vicky, you missed my point. I was not saying “what difference does it make. since none of these folks could get published anyway?” If PA is misrepresenting itself and being dishonest with it’s customers that is wrong. I do not condone that.

My issue was more with the support and advice given on this board. As it appears to me that by trying to help, you are actually perpetuating the fantasy. You are telling these people what they should expect from a publisher without having any idea of whether or not Vanity publishing is their only hope. And yes, I realize it is not your place to make that judgment – but perhaps a little less focus on what a traditional publisher does for it’s writer, and a little more focus on how to get out of the contract might not be a bad thing.

And to answer Teena’s question as to how I know that the vast majority of the PA writer’s are not talented enough to get published at a traditional house? The answer is simple. Most PEOPLE do not have the talent to be professional writers. PA appears to accept pretty much all submissions they receive. Hence most of the submissions are not good enough.

We all learn to write in first grade, that does not mean we are all writers. You can learn the craft, but if you do not have the innate ability you will never be a good writer. There are thousands of dancers who have the same dedication, training, drive, and ambition as Baryshnikov, but none have the ability to soar the way he did. Because along with the dedication and drive he had a gift. Just because you are not tone deaf and can carry a tune – does not mean you have what it takes to be a pop star. The same goes for writing. While dedication, drive, ambition and belief in yourself are obviously necessary to succeed as a writer – those things are not a replacement for talent.

Good writers have a gift. And that gift is rare. I used to do script consulting and also screened submissions for a major script contest. I have read more bad screenplays than any human being should be subjected to in a lifetime. All of those writers thought they were talented, thought their scripts were good. Most were not. My agent only accepts about 1% of the writers who submit. In a few cases he rejects them because they are too green or because he does not feel they are a good fit. But in most cases he rejects them because, to put it kindly – they suck.

That is the cold hard truth. Do a lot of talented writers fall through the cracks and not get the opportunities they should. Of course! Do some not very talented writers find success. Absolutely.

Encouraging people to write for the sake of self-expression and personal fulfillment is a good thing, but filling their heads with contract points and royalty information when you have absolutely no idea whether they are the next Hemingway or should stick to writing grocery lists? I can’t help wondering if you are doing more harm than good.

As for Simon Cowell, James – he’s one of the judges on American Idol.

Re: PA is what it is

As for Simon Cowell, James – he’s one of the judges on American Idol.

That's a TV program, isn't it?

<hr>

SimonSays, you seem to be missing the entire point.

Re: PA is what it is

You still do not get the point of what we are saying. We do not say all the PA writers are the next Hemingway. But they deserve the right to know about real publishers, and what is available outside PA. We learn from others, who have been there and share out knowledge. A lot of fledgling writers, and some really good ones have gotten caught in the PA spiderweb. Food for the spider. Most would not be with PA. At least with most POD publishers they are honest with what you can expect with them. We have no problem with those who just want a book published and are happy. As long as they know what they are getting. We don't have a problem with our fellow PA authors. Except perhaps those who push the lies to the innocent. All of us writers worked hard on our books and with PA would have been better off throwing them in the trash can.
As writers we learn and improve those of us who are serious writers. First novels aren't always ones we want to look back on with pride after we have grown as writers. But it still our books our "babies", they too deserve better than PA. Not to say the books are bad either. Not all PA books are horrid, despite what critics say. Writers with dreams that got crushed and we don't just want to push it under the carpet.

Keep this in mind

If someone swindles a thousand dollars from an literate person, it's a crime. If someone swindles only a dollar from a less literate person, it's still a crime.

In this case, they're stealing dreams that might have been worth something placed in the hands of a competent publisher. It doesn't matter that PA is getting the money from the author's co-workers, friends, and relatives for the most part. What matters is that their authors don't stand much of a chance of actually seeing their books on shelves in book stores from coast to coast when that is the implied promise in one of PA's claims.