The Old Neverending PublishAmerica Thread (Publish America)

I agree, Jean.

Sassenach, I'm again shaking my head at your comments-- the implications of what you're saying here are that the PAers here are lazy/unjustified/expect immediate action/etc. I don't know how many of them you know, but I know a lot of these writers. And you're wrong.

No one here is being unreasonable in getting frustrated with agencies like the Maryland AG. They're not just making it a "low priority"-- they're passing the buck entirely, just like several other agencies that could effectively deal with this problem.

About the only adjective you used that could apply to most PAers is "naive." Yes, most of them were naive about how publishing really works-- but what else did you expect? They've never published anything before. If you're new to this field and you see signs all over a website saying that new writers are welcome, the company is selective, you'll have the same chance as any other author of getting your books on bookstore shelves, you just have some work to do and then you can get stocked nationally, etc... it all sounds great! And it doesn't mean they're looking to get "something for nothing." The PA authors I know, in general, worked very hard to write and market their books.

I think it's entirely reasonable, as AnnaWhite said, to expect that once we alert the appropriate agencies of the false advertising claims, copyright infringements, shorted royalties, etc., they should take action. Did we all expect immediate justice? No, but this has been going on for years. Years. I don't think it's at all unreasonable for PA authors to expect that somewhere along the way, someone would make it a priority (even a "low priority") to investigate scammers and make them stop.

And the "well, there will always be another scammer" line is no excuse. You take them down one at a time until people start realizing that they can't get away with it. Not dealing with it at all just encourages more scams to flourish.

And let's not forget that Grisham got paid an advance by that small press that was many times over the PA $1.00.

Laura J. Underwood

AnneMarble said:

First, John Grisham did not self-publish his first novel, A Time to Kill. It was not self-published. Nope, nope, nope. He published it through a small press instead. Got that? Also, even more importantly, he didn't sit back and wait to become "rich." On the urging of his agent (people cting the myth often forget to mention that he had an agent), he started writing his next novel, which was The Firm.

OK... Here's something I believe no one has brought up about the old John Grisham and self-publishing myth... Let's say John Grisham had finally given up and decided to go with a printer such as PublishAmerica. In real life, we know what happened to him after A Time to Kill sold only a few copies. He sold The Firm, and that one took off like a rocket. It did so well that A Time to Kill was picked up by a major publisher and became a best-seller as well.

If Grisham had given up and had truly self-published A Time to Kill, let's look at possible scenarios. The whole experience might have killed his desire to write, and he would never have gone on to become the author of The Firm and other blockbusters. Yeah, yeah, I know, there are some readers who think that might be a good thing, but !@#$ 'em. I like legal thrillers, and whatever you think of Grisham, he helped revive that market.

Even if he had emerged from the experience with the will to write intact, what if he had ended up locked in a hideous contract, like PA's contract? His writes to A Time to Kill could have been tied up for years, or even forever if he had signed the original contract. Can you imagine what a vanity press could do if one of their authors becomes a blockbuster, and they have the rights to publish his first novel for years? At best, they could sell the rights to him for a high fee. At worst, they could have republished it without his permission, and with shoddy editing and horrid cover art, damaging his reputation.

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PA is like...

A school yard bully or thug that uses his size to threaten and intimidate. Take the time to actually read the responses of Author Support to some of their own authors. The arrogance and tone is simply astounding. They treat each question as some type of threat or direct challenge that must be squelched.

Publish America feels that they are invulnerable and above the law. They continue to sell books after they've terminated contracts, they've sicked law enforcement upon complaining authors in an attempt to intimidate these authors into silence. The facts are abundant and the evidence clear as to what Publish America is, and the tactics that they employ to banish and intimidate anybody who dares defy their party line.

Why are beaurocracies so slow to act? Because the voice of one author against an established company is too small an expense to drag inot the court systems. BUt take many disgruntled voices and have them shout at the same time and the sound cannot be ignored. Beaurocracies will be forced, willing or unwilling, into action. Only as a cohesive united entity can those who have been burned by Publish America have a voice. We the little author "Davids" must Unite to slay PA's "Goliath" (did ya catch the irony there?? )

To accuse authors of not doing enough or expecting instantaneous results is ludicrous. I can only speak for myself. I simply want my book back. I will continue to have my lawyer send letters to PA (since I can't anymore after the harassment charges PA filed against me). I still want my audit. Could the fact that I'm a twenty year financial analyst with a decade auditing expericience and ties with a few law firms be the reason that PA will not open ther books to me, as is clearly outlined in thier contract? I gave them the required seven days notice as per our contract yet their continued silence is deafening. They don't want anyone with any accounting experience examining anything even remotely resembling a PA general ledger.

PA thrives on the author buying their own books to cover their POD cost and to turn a profit. Why else would they have no marketing staff and no real methods of promoting their 15,000 "Happy Authors". The answer is simple. They don't expect a singel PA Author to be successful beyond their submitted hot sheet of family and friends. Why is their contract so misleading and vague? Because it's better to catch the inexperienced writer in the trap. If one read;

"We will not really edit your book, it will not be available in bookstores and will be priced higher than any other trade paperback on the face of the earth. In addition, you will be responsible for your own promotion despite what we imply. Also our books are non-returnable and have a poor trade discount."

Even the most niave of wrtiers would flee.

The PA business model is based on the author purchase plain and simple. Read their wonderful exclamations of good news, there's always a special book buying bonanaza for the happy authors. Even their so called return policy was nothing more than an excuse to pedal 40 more books to their willing schilled newbies.

Look blaming a new writer for being sucked in is akin to blaming the victim of a violent crime. It just doesn't make sense. Those of us who've been wronged by PA simply want our book rights returned. We're not buying our books anymore, so why should they clog up their PAvidian database with all of those useless book icons, Answer: To simply be spiteful and vindictive. I also suspect that each book can be listed as an asset on a balance sheet and given some trumped up value.

momwrites said:

on the PA site, they have a BBB realibility stamp! I can't beleive that with all the complaints to the BBB and they think PA is RELIABLE?? Give me a break!

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Probably clipped and pasted it off someone else's report.

For all PA writers: Now is the time to write (another) letter to the FTC, to the MD AG, to the BBB, and to the editor of your local newspaper.

You don't want two guys in an office somewhere saying:

Careful, Yog. If what I'm reading is correct, PA's Technology division has found a new way of going after their critics...

Right

James D. Macdonald said:

1) The devil can, for his purposes, take the appearance of an angel of light and quote scripture. QUOTE}

You are so right Uncle Jim.

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Just saw something

And couldn't help but giggle.

How to upset a goliath book biz

Ingram's

This book is not returnable

Hasn't even made his book returnable with Ingrams yet!



Must not have met the 40 copy quota.
Who's laughing now PA?

Bonnie Gibson said:

ALso I have the page to look up any of PA's titles to see if they are returnable. I was just asking Ingrams IF they are working with PA to make ALL PA books returnable, or is PA scamming us again.

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For future bookstore questions, you may think about getting yourself a "bookstore specific" e-mail that is in no way tied to your name (and do not use your name in correspondence)...and avoid using phrases such as "scammed"...

Ingram is going to check with PA to see what's going on. With those two things (name and assorted negative phrases) in an e-mail, PA can pass it off, saying "it's just one of our disgruntled authors. Ignore it."

I may have to take a trip to the bookstore this weekend, and stir a little sh!t...

JennaGlatzer said:

I agree, Jean.

Sassenach, I'm again shaking my head at your comments-- the implications of what you're saying here are that the PAers here are lazy/unjustified/expect immediate action/etc. I don't know how many of them you know, but I know a lot of these writers. And you're wrong.

No one here is being unreasonable in getting frustrated with agencies like the Maryland AG. They're not just making it a "low priority"-- they're passing the buck entirely, just like several other agencies that could effectively deal with this problem.

About the only adjective you used that could apply to most PAers is "naive." Yes, most of them were naive about how publishing really works-- but what else did you expect? They've never published anything before. If you're new to this field and you see signs all over a website saying that new writers are welcome, the company is selective, you'll have the same chance as any other author of getting your books on bookstore shelves, you just have some work to do and then you can get stocked nationally, etc... it all sounds great!

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I was speaking generally about people who think it's easy to get rich [e.g., 419 schemes], thin [e.g., 'fat-burning' pills] or published [e.g., PA-ers.]

It's also naive to expect 'immediate' action by the authorities. I think PA should be brought down but I don't expect it to happen tomorrow or anytime soon, since law enforcement is overworked and understaffed, and there's always a need crop of wannabe authors for them to take advantage of.

Bonnie Gibson said:

I went to PA's site and clicked on the BBB link. Ok, on it was the BBB and PA's name and address and info.

I went to google and put in BBB of Frederick Maryland and got the very same link as PA has with PA's name and all.

Why can't I google the Frederick Maryland BBB without seeing PA's name and address?

Are they connected?

THis should be 2 different links altogether shouldn't it?

Shouldn't I be able to google the BBB without seeing PA?


confused!

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http://www.baltimore.bbb.org/home/default.asp?MN0=50

I don't know if there's a local BBB, but Googling brings up the Maryland BBB.

Sassenach said:

I was speaking generally about people who think it's easy to get rich [e.g., 419 schemes], thin [e.g., 'fat-burning' pills] or published [e.g., PA-ers.]

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I think you've got the wrong idea, Sassenach. It's not a question of thinking that it's easy to get published. It's a question of being taken for a ride.

All I want is for PA to give me back my book so that I can start again the process of submitting it to real publishers. Maybe it would never get published, but thanks to PA it never stood a chance, and I'll never know.

Maybe you might like to read some of the real stories of PA authors below. Everybody's experiences are very different, but I don't think any of these people chose PA because it was "easy". I certainly didn't. It just happened to be the fifth publisher I sent a submission to, on the recommendation of an author in my writers' group.

Sassenach,

I respectfully submit to you, that you were quiet clear in what you truly meant. And I'm sure every ex-PA author who frequent these boards and those lurking, know that, and take exception to your words. Truthfully speaking, it's attitudes like yours that keep some of the more timid departing PA authors from AW.

My choosing PA was not a matter of 'lazy' or 'get it quick.' It was simply a mistake on my part of being too trusting.

The net is a completely new ball game when it comes to getting oneself noticed, and I assumed, as I'm sure many of us did, that Publish America was a bit more flamboyant than some in their campaign to promote themselves. I will admit ignorance in the area of the inter workings of how the big houses handled online business. Publish America was readily visible, compared to others, and in 03 and early 04, AW and other PA author advocates were not as visible.

Publish America CEOS are cleverly deceitful, and since my genre is quite tight with some publishers who have many in-house authors, PA was a welcome sight to me. However, it did not take me long to realize I had been taken.

As an ex-Publish America author and friend to many, I'm asking you to respect those who have been though and are still going through a personal hell because of PA. I truly hope for your sake you are never caught in fraud. With the cleaver antics of scammers, even the "more enlightened" ones such as you perceive yourself to be, could be taken.

I've read them all, and was struck by the number of times people mentioned that they got a bad feeling/gut feeling that PA wasn't kosher, but kept going because they wanted to get published.

Meanwhile, back on the PA front...

Any guesses on what the next money-maker out of PA will be, and when it will happen? Royalties come due again in about 4 months...so I'm guessing within that time frame...

I do wonder if PA is going to start syphoning ideas off Xlibris, though, and start doing some sort of "targeted online promotion" based on sales (Xlibris does it based on new submissions and how much you pay upfront...)

Since we know how much fun they have with writing e-mails and working up website verbiage, I could foresee it...

Lady of Prose said:

Publish America CEOS are cleverly deceitful, and since my genre is quite tight with some publishers who have many in-house authors, PA was a welcome sight to me.

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I have no idea what this means. 'In-house authors'?

Sassenach said:

I've read them all, and was struck by the number of times people mentioned that they got a bad feeling/gut feeling that PA wasn't kosher, but kept going because they wanted to get published.

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Granted, and that statement alone would have made your point in a more polite way. To lump all the authors into one pot, is not kosher to me. If you've read all the posts, surely you were aware that you would be pouring salt on wounds.

PA "hurt" a lot of people who did not deserve it. Period.

I'm gone. (edit to clarify.) "I'm gone" meaning to leave the thread for the time being, day, hour, evening, whatever. Not gone for good. (I'm not "thin-skinned.) Thanks to those of you who were concerned.

A surprising number of PA authors sent their manuscripts to PA first.

Sassenach said:

I've read them all, and was struck by the number of times people mentioned that they got a bad feeling/gut feeling that PA wasn't kosher, but kept going because they wanted to get published.

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I'm not a PA author, so I'm not trying to explain myself here. But when I read this in all the PA stories, I can't help but think that, at the time, they dismissed these feelings as self-doubt. And during the "honeymoon period," it seems that PA is quick to reassure people that everything will be okay.

PA is very good at what they do. And what they do is take advantage of people's goals of being published. As an unpublished author, it's easy for me to see why they would want it badly enough to trust them.

Sassenach said:

I've read them all, and was struck by the number of times people mentioned that they got a bad feeling/gut feeling that PA wasn't kosher, but kept going because they wanted to get published.

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Sassenach, that bad feeling/gut feeling came AFTER signing the contract, when it was too late.

It's a pretty natural thing, once you realise you might have made a mistake, to try and make the best of it before throwing your book in the garbage can. So that's why it usually takes a little while between the gut feeling and the admission that it's been a huge con...

James D. Macdonald said:

A surprising number of PA authors sent their manuscripts to PA first.

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It could be that the most unhappy authors, the ones who feel seriously scammed, are those who hadn't sent their ms to 101 publishers before PA. Those who had, probably went down the PA road with their eyes relatively open, seeing PA as a last resort. They may be the ones who join the ranks of PA's cheerleaders. This would not harm anybody, as far as I know, if it were not for the misleading approach that ropes in people who did not want a last-resort publisher/printer.

PA should have a CAUTION on their website, in bold red letters, that says: "Do not submit your ms unless you have tried 101 publishers/agents. PublishAmerica is a last resort for aspiring authors, since almost all of its books are purchased only by the author and his/her friends and family."

Of course, even if you have tried 101 publishers, you will still be far better off publishing through Lulu, which gives you a reasonable book cover price (up to half of PA's) and allows you to withdraw at any time (no seven year contract).

Very interesting guestbook on Dutch PA clone site.

The Dutch PA-clone Free Musketeers, run by Willem Meiners' brother Lars, does not have a message board, only a guest book at http://www.freemusketeers.nl/gastenboek/. I don't know, yet, if Free Musketeers is as enthusiastic about pruning as PA, but one thing is for sure, the guest book only boasts 'happy' authors.

Except one, posted earlier today, and preserved here for posterity, just in case it 'disappears in the near future'. This posting is revealing, because it illustrates one Free Musketeers party trick which even PA has not dared emulate.

First, just for the record, the original Dutch

DAISY, BELGIE

JAMMER DAT IK DIT MOEST AFBREKEN MIJN KINDERBOEKJE BIJ JULLIE. IK HAD NAMELIJK GEEN 80 E_MAIL ADRESSEN WAAR JULLIE OP WERKEN, DUS HET CONTRACT KWAM IN GEVAAR! HET IS VEEL TE VEEL VOOR EEN BEGINNENDE BUITENKOMENDE SCHRIJVER OM AL ZOVEEL KOPENDE MENSEN EN DAN NOG WEL E-MAILS VERZAMELD TE HEBBN! Dus, wees altijd op jullie hoede schrijvers bij contracten! IK HEB DIT AANGETEKEND LATEN GAAN!

Date: 28/10/2005 13:17

and then the translation (without the upper case).

A pity that I had terminate my children's book project with you. I did not have 80 email addresses for you to work on, so my contract was jeopardized. It is far too many, for a writer who is just starting out, to find so many people to buy the book AND to gather up their emails! Therefore, writers, please pay attention with contracts! I have sent this by Registered Post!

This post is revealing because it exposes one trick, which I had actually mentioned, in passing, in an earlier post. Free Musketeers uses the same 'provide contact details of potential buyers' as PA, but adds a twist. Free Musketeers only has to commit to the project (and even then, at its discretion) after the author has submitted the contact details.

AnnaWhite said:

It could be that the most unhappy authors, the ones who feel seriously scammed, are those who hadn't sent their ms to 101 publishers before PA. Those who had, probably went down the PA road with their eyes relatively open, seeing PA as a last resort. They may be the ones who join the ranks of PA's cheerleaders. This would not harm anybody, as far as I know, if it were not for the misleading approach that ropes in people who did not want a last-resort publisher/printer.

PA should have a CAUTION on their website, in bold red letters, that says: "Do not submit your ms unless you have tried 101 publishers/agents. PublishAmerica is a last resort for aspiring authors, since almost all of its books are purchased only by the author and his/her friends and family."

Of course, even if you have tried 101 publishers, you will still be far better off publishing through Lulu, which gives you a reasonable book cover price (up to half of PA's) and allows you to withdraw at any time (no seven year contract).

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Then. Why. Didn't. They. Do. Their. Homework?

Before I signed a SEVEN year contract, I would check out, at the very least, if this was standard in the book publishing industry.

I was a magazine fact-checker/researcher way back in the pre-Internet days, so I don't buy the excuse that there wasn't much info on PA online four or five years ago. There were libraries and research librarians, and they would have helped anyone answer the contract question.

Why don't you just lay off us ex PA'ers, Sassenach. It's gone above and beyond and has/is accomplishing nothing with one exception: Keeping present/future PA'ers away from this board. They're afraid they might be taken to the mat as you're doing w/ us at the moment. It's your kind of commentary that does keep 'us' away and that's unfair. It also defeats the purpose of this thread which is to help those authors, not 'bash' them!! Now I understand the true meaning of that word.

Which part of your superior attitude will not cease w/ rubbing salt into open wounds? I was naive, so, let it go and do the right thing.

PA continues to illegally sell my work. It's been brought to my attention that my mentioning this on a regular basis is bothersome. If that's the case and you find it offensive, I'm sorry. What PA is doing needs to be kept in the light in order for new authors to be fully informed prior to signing on the PA line.

Sassenach said:

Before I signed a SEVEN year contract, I would check out, at the very least, if this was standard in the book publishing industry.

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I think that a lot of the people who sign with PA do so with a rather limited knowledge of the book publishing industry. They've written a lovely little book and found this publisher with a whole heap of positive testimonies, and they're not expecting a scam--hell, the company doesn't even charge to publish and edit the book--so why compare contracts? They're not asking for money! And hey, Harry Potter and the Philosopher's Stone was released over ten years ago, and it's still being sold, so surely Rowling's contract is for way more than seven years, right? Besides, it's so lovely that a publisher wants to keep my book in print for that long, and not give up on me after a year like those fascists over at the Big Houses. PA really is a HOME to authors. Yay.

And so on and so forth.

You may be very good at researching, but there are those who are not. Someone who is new to the industry might not be as "paranoid" as one who has spent a year or so at a board like this one. I am sure you have made mistakes as well (perhaps not in this business), that could have been avoided if only you had done some research (or simply asked for some advice) beforehand. Would it help you if we barraged you about it?