Why I Won't Beta Read Your Novel

Aww, thank you, Maryn!

I believe she's just really receptive to feedback, and the recommendations were relatively minor. She's a pretty good writer, in my opinion. And a pretty fantastic person overall.

Followed your link. It sounds intriguing and gruesome! It has some very nice write-ups too. You obviously did great beta reader work

I found this forum while searching for beta readers, and honestly all I wanted to do was grab a few random strangers and demand help, but...

Reading the first post reminded me of how I used to critique excerpts for writers on my old forum. It's absolutely ludicrous how many people asked for help and then got angry when I pointed out problems in their writing, or just flat-out ignored me. Eventually I gave up.

With that in mind, I guess I'll come out of lurking for a while before I ask for help. I do still like critting.

I can't even believe how much I love finding threads like this. So fun! I learned all about betas, cheeselogs, and not to google "jimmy bug." Seriously, what other place on the internet offers all of that?

Beetles are nothing. Bananas are starting to freak me out -

http://now.msn.com/brazilian-wandering-spiders-found-in-bananas-bought-at-sainsburys

okay, I got to go search up jimmy bugs now

hey, man, there's nothing on jimmy bugs!

Madame Curmudgeonette, I believe I love you.

Concise and well-spoken. My world is brighter for it.

Jerry, a curmudgeon who didn't know there were such lovely curmudgeonettes in the world.

I wouldn't like to beta read for someone who:

1) Has done no critiques on SYW or otherwise shown that they are a real part of the community and give as well as take. Otherwise, my time and effort goes into a one-way void.

2) Has had no critiques on the chapters as they've written their book. Especially if they don't have much of a publishing record, I'd expect such a book to need intensive, time-consuming work. In other words, I'd expect them to have been putting their own effort in all along so that the beta read is a final check, not dealing with a rough draft that they mistakenly believe is polished.

In my experience, the two above are also the type most likely by far to have a meltdown or not even thank you after you spend considerable hours giving them real feedback rather than only praise.

Maryn said:

Since I'm having a day of utter incompetence (I ran a red light, got lost, and other fun stuff, all before noon!), this was a day-brightener for which I thank you.

Yeah, Fruitbat, on both your points. I don't necessarily want to receive a beta for each time I give one, but I'd sure like to know this person, as a part of the community, is likely to beta for others as well as participate in general. Even though I think I'm a fairly gentle critic, it's never good to be someone's first. So many who seek harsh really only want rainbows.

Maryn, wondering if this doughnut is worth it, since it's too early to drink

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I had a day like that on Monday - all day. It was like the circuitry in my brain was left unconnected overnight.

If someone hasn't 'suffered' the trials and tribulations of SYW, they shouldn't ask for a Beta. SYW is a great way to toughen up and learn that not every word out of your keyboard is the stuff of puppies and unicorns.

I was really bummed for a while when my first beta said that one of my manuscripts had no running conflict. (ouch!)But I appreciated her honest opinion. How do you grow as a writer without this? I kept this in mind as I outlined the WIP I'm doing for NaNo. And, of course I thanked her (how rude not to!)

Nekko - who wholeheartedly thinks Maryn should have that doughnut

Personally, if someone didn't want to continue on a story for me, I'd like to know why. Was there just too many mistakes? Was it so boring they'd rather watch paint dry? Was it just not their cup of tea in regards to genre? This way I'd know that there are already big problems from the get-go that even a beta won't sludge through it, and then I can attempt to fix it. If I don't know what's wrong, I can't fix it.

But I guess that in itself is kind of a beta too?

Well, the person who just contacted me about a swap is clever enough to warn people up front that he won't keep reading if something is too terrible to continue, and expects likewise on his own work.

I think I'm going to take a page from his book, although on the beta team I run I at least skim the end and try to be constructive, as I've committed to doing that book that week. Then again, that policy bit me in the ass last week when a girl submitted an incomplete, totally un-proof-read, nonsensical pile of word vomit to the beta team simultaneously with her first-draft team (even though I've explicitly mentioned that people can only be on two different *if they have two separate works at different levels of completion.) I only made it halfway through the pile of crap, noticing her flagrant disregard of both the rules and the point. Then I just removed her from the spotlight (to huge sighs of relief from the beta team) and told her very straightforwardly she'd have to actually write the damn thing, and workshop it, before she could submit for beta.

Did I hurt her feelings? Undoubtedly. But sometimes someone has to be the enforcing asshole, and I'm okay with that being me.

(Ironically, her FIRST DRAFT TEAM also all contacted me, awkwardly, politely, indirectly begging to have her removed as well. Because apparently her writing is too crappy and nonsensical for even first draft critters.)

What I've learned in the last week is that the way to go is warning people upfront that the penalty for abject sucking is cancellation of the beta. And that I'm going to at least skim all future submissions to the beta team for not-totally-blowing-off-the-rules before spotlighting them.

Here? I'm thinking first-chapter sample swaps are the way to go.

bewarethejabb said:

Well, the person who just contacted me about a swap is clever enough to warn people up front that he won't keep reading if something is too terrible to continue, and expects likewise on his own work.

I think I'm going to take a page from his book, although on the beta team I run I at least skim the end and try to be constructive, as I've committed to doing that book that week. Then again, that policy bit me in the ass last week when a girl submitted an incomplete, totally un-proof-read, nonsensical pile of word vomit to the beta team simultaneously with her first-draft team (even though I've explicitly mentioned that people can only be on two different *if they have two separate works at different levels of completion.) I only made it halfway through the pile of crap, noticing her flagrant disregard of both the rules and the point. Then I just removed her from the spotlight (to huge sighs of relief from the beta team) and told her very straightforwardly she'd have to actually write the damn thing, and workshop it, before she could submit for beta.

Did I hurt her feelings? Undoubtedly. But sometimes someone has to be the enforcing asshole, and I'm okay with that being me.

(Ironically, her FIRST DRAFT TEAM also all contacted me, awkwardly, politely, indirectly begging to have her removed as well. Because apparently her writing is too crappy and nonsensical for even first draft critters.)

What I've learned in the last week is that the way to go is warning people upfront that the penalty for abject sucking is cancellation of the beta. And that I'm going to at least skim all future submissions to the beta team for not-totally-blowing-off-the-rules before spotlighting them.

Here? I'm thinking first-chapter sample swaps are the way to go.

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See, I think there's a difference between being a bad writer and just plain being inconsiderate, and the fact that she fell within the latter group, I don't fault you at all.

But what if someone honestly didn't know how to write? If no one gave them a chance, then they'll never improve. Maybe they have that eagerness to learn, but no one is willing to teach them. I think that if I ever got one that bad, I'd ask first if it had been edited. If not, then I'm returning it. If they had attempted to edit it, then I'd stick it out. Luckily I've never had one that was downright bad. *knock on wood*

I haven't betaed, but I've done a whole heap of sub-editing and peer reviewing. My approach is usually to take the broad brush approach of a list of bullet points which address the fundamental issues. So one report I read was technically fine, but the author (for perfectly valid reasons for them as a person), had omitted virtually every and/then/all etc. I sent it back to them with a few of the early examples corrected and a note to use more joining words, then send it back. (And yes, I phrased it like that for a specific reason too).

I'd be tempted to ask the person to fix the fundamentals, and give them a list and a shove in the right direction with some Internet links, then offer to look at the first 3 chapters again once they'd been through the whole book.

Mind you, if it's a case of basically correct but just plain dull, tell them. That's the point of betaing, no?

chompers said:

See, I think there's a difference between being a bad writer and just plain being inconsiderate, and the fact that she fell within the latter group, I don't fault you at all.

But what if someone honestly didn't know how to write? If no one gave them a chance, then they'll never improve. Maybe they have that eagerness to learn, but no one is willing to teach them. I think that if I ever got one that bad, I'd ask first if it had been edited. If not, then I'm returning it. If they had attempted to edit it, then I'd stick it out. Luckily I've never had one that was downright bad. *knock on wood*

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I agree with you completely. I have no perspective on myself, so I generally prefer to err on the side of assuming that I was make-your-eyeballs-bleed awful when I started, and probably am only a few cuts above that right now.

With the girl I mentioned above, I would have reacted quite differently if had been on her first draft team. The point of a first draft critique team (anywhere, I'd think, not just in my group) is just to get it out there and try to start somewhere. I had a different person on my former first draft team who made my head hurt with dread every time I had to go in for my weekly crit (armed with a metaphorical haz-mat suit) but I tried my best to be constructive and polite and give her concrete, digestible chunks every time, and ya know what? That person did improve. I still don't want to read her work if I can help it, but it was admittedly better when I left off (took an elaborate series of polite excuses to extricate myself from that one,) and she'll keep improving from there.

I think the key question is expectations. How does someone get to the point of beta if they really don't now how to write? Maybe the term means something different here on AW (though I doubt it, because I've read the stickies) but isn't a beta something you try to obtain after you've written, workshopped, and rewritten your story several times already? Shouldn't some of the things have been caught by the point? If I am expecting a chapter from a first draft, I have signed on to be polite and constructive, come what may. If I am expecting a beta, isn't it part of our agreement that everyone has done some of the prelimanary legwork already?

I'm all for helping people from the ground up, to pay back the karmic debt of the ones who did so for me. I did go through and crit, as nicely and constructively as my cantankerous ass could manage, aforementioned example girl's chapters, on a first-draft-level basis, after I pulled her from the beta team spotlight for ignoring the definition of what a beta read is. What I expect for people to admit it when they're putting forth a slapdash first draft they haven't bothered to spell check, so we can be on educated terms going in.

Maryn said:

I did. There's a lunch Weight Watchers will love-hate. A large salad, diet dressing, turkey, pomegranate seeds to make it interesting, washed down with a doughnut. It's been at least a year since I had one, so I refuse to feel guilty.

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I wholeheartedly approve of this lunch! Maryn, I hope your week improved.

Lest I derail, I should mention beta reading. How do you tell someone you don't want to continue? I find that hard, knowing they're likely to be hurt because it's just not good enough or interesting enough for me.

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I've never had to tell someone I couldn't finish, because (and I'm sure this is the reason) I am very picky about whom I beta for. But speaking as a writer, I'd much rather someone tell me s/he couldn't finish (and why, so I can try to fix it, or know it was unfixable, like a genre mismatch) than have the person slog through while hating it. What a horrible feeling that would be, to know someone had slogged through my book! And maybe if the person hadn't finished because of a big picture issue, knowing that after only a few chapters might have enabled me to apply it the fixes to the entire book without needing my poor beta to schlup through the rest. And if it was a genre problem or personal taste or something, the beta's feedback is probably going to be a mismatch anyway!

I consistently tell my betas that if they hate it, to please stop reading and send it back and just tell me why. So far, that has not happened. *knocks on wood* *hugs betas*

Kinda similar: about 20 years ago I was tapped as the Editor for a new dead-tree magazine. So come the first group of submissions, and... egads, none of this is even writing. There's one that with a lot of massaging and a little squinting might be printworthy, but that's it. Then the truth came out -- the rag's owner wanted a free pass for all his 'writer' friends, and rejecting 'em was not permitted. Shortly thereafter we went our separate ways. I believe they printed 5 or 6 issues before folding for lack of sales (other than to friends of the owner).